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I don't want to get into arguments on the issue.How ever splitting hairs can never hide the fact that Z 7 ii did not have a good AF compared to even it's predecessors like D 500 / 850 & that's the point I was trying to make . The proof of that is in this forum itself where there are threads where Z 7 ii owners have been repeatedly asking for FW updates to improve is AF
Here's my take: I don't think Nikon ever advertised or even hinted that the Z6/7 cameras were suitable replacements for the D500 or D850. I've said this before - I believe the Z6 is more of a replacement for the D750, and the Z7 is similar, but with a higher megapixel sensor. So to say the Z7 is no good for action is the same as saying the D750 is no good for action photography. Not too many folks that I know of try to use a D750 for serious wildlife action work, the same as how I could not successfully and consistently use the D7000 series (D7000, D7100, D7500) for years for action wildlife work. I got some amazing images, and I also lost some where the camera's autofocus system could not keep up in some conditions. One learns to live with the limitations of a specific camera, and if it's too frustrating, one replaces the camera with a more capable one (usually at significantly increased cost).

As for firmware updates, yes, I'm also waiting for such an update for my Z6II. Again, Nikon did not promise to improve the firmware in such a way as to make the camera more capable for action work. It is something we're all wishing for. In a couple of years I'll probably replace my Z6II with whatever more capable Nikon is available at the time because I have become more interested in wildlife action photography lately. Now if Nikon can narrow the gap and make the Z6II more capable through firmware I'll probably be happy enough to use it for longer.
 
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The more specific we can be about subject, context, and our individual experience with a camera, the more helpful a comment becomes. Then it is about a fact observed first hand rather than a generalization of one or two others with unknown experience. There are far too many variables for a blanket statement to represent a large population. I won't debate the point you made as that would sidetrack this discussion, but it does not apply at all to my experience with the camera you referenced. Likewise it would be inappropriate for me to comment about performance of the A1, R3, or other cameras from systems and cameras I don't use or have first hand experience, although I might comment to share my experience working with students in workshops I am teaching who use those cameras.

A professional or experienced amateur will figure out a way to get the shot and have the gear perform successfully even if there is a problem. It may take hours or days to learn the right techniques and figure out what works. Far too often we are getting reports and interpreting them as fact when the user has limited expertise, experience, or learning invested in the gear and subject. A fellow bird photographer told me they had 40-50 hours invested in learning the AF settings and use cases for the Z9 - and had a long way to go. When I get new gear, part of my testing is figuring out how to do the things others said were impossible or very difficult because I'll run into those situations sooner or later.

Some of my most useful learnings in testing gear has been about repeatability of failures. I've stopped using Eye AF when 97% of images were sharp, but I had critical images ahead where I knew I would only get a frame or two with the right eye contact. I've had subjected where animal eye AF works on 100% of the images with four consecutive subjects, and then drops to 0% solely based on color and hair patterns of a fifth subject. I've had to adjust settings to control stickiness and AF speed for specific situations - settings that would be totally inappropriate for general use. Technique is different than using gear at default settings.

Part of the value of this forum and the discussions is we can shortcut learning how to do something, techniques, or settings that might help. One of my favorite Fn button settings for my Nikon Z6 camera was from a Sony user with an earlier Sony mirrorless camera. It opened up several new ways of using the EVF that did not apply to a DSLR.
While you are claiming that you are not debating my point that's what you are actually doing .
I have nothing else to add except to say that even Steve had commented about it & please refer to the countless comments of people in this forum who are asking for the FW update .
If you find no issue with the camera it's good for you
 
Signs of poor self-awareness:

1) Being defensive/never admitting mistakes. The unwillingness to admit mistakes is often a sign of deep insecurity. Defensive people almost always deflect by going on the offensive.
2) Criticizing others. When someone criticizes someone else for saying/doing something they’re implying that they’re smart. Which feels good.
3) Being a bully. People often go on the offensive and bully to protect something deep within like a belief or to avoid self-doubt about something.
4) Inability to recognize facts vs opinions. Self-aware people use data, not theories, to choose their actions.
5) Worrying about the future. Worry is problem-solving that’s applied to something in the future that either isn’t a problem or is a problem that can’t be solved by you at the moment.
 
I totally agree with you.
When i I had posted about Z7 ii not being good for action photography many fanboys ( I don't know what else to call them)went bonkers & went to great lengths to say how good It bash s & bash me on the forum .
So there are people on both the sides of the fence & every one need to accept facts as they are & not try to bash others .
We do need debates as long they are civil & that increases our overall knowledge of photography.
I also find it funny when people take objection to a post by a person who has other brands & take no objection when the same brand person posts an adverse comment.
This is hypocrtical & used to happen in forums like NR or SonyRumors.This has started happening here too.
It is how we say it. As an example, the above post says “ Z7II not being good for action photography “, might be better said as “ from my experience, the Z7II isn’t as good as my XYZ, or doesn’t appear to be as good as my XYZ”.
 
I think the individuals that are directly involved in this Sony vs Nikon thing should take a deep breath. Mirrorless or DSLR as well. It’s getting a little ridiculous as Steve pointed out. This forum is about helping and motivating photographers to take better pictures. Most of us choose a camera based on what fits our needs and not based solely on which is better. There are always compromises. Because which is better is a personal opinion based on your needs. So, while this back and forth can be entertaining at times it’s getting a little old. When I see a thread about the Z9 photos , that’s what I want to read about. If I see a thread about the Sony A1, that’s what I expect. Not some back and forth about which is better. Come on people, your better than that. Let’s talk about thing's that improve our skills or helps to solve a problem that one of us is having. It’s not necessary to defend your position that your camera is better than theirs. There are plenty of you-tube videos for that.

Spot on, Ralph. Good post.
I think to some extent I'm seeing something with these comparisons as well: Sony was the company to hit the ball out of the park with subject tracking autofocus with their mirrorless cameras, and that became the standard to beat for the others. Many Nikon (and I wonder about Canon shooters as well), wanted that instant gratification of having that autofocus capability immediately, so they jumped ship to Sony. Nothing wrong with that, but some of them were quite vocal about the move and their reasons why. I think that woke up emotions to the point where some loyal Nikon shooters felt defensive and then posted reasons why jumping to Sony was not a good idea. That in turn resulted in those new Sony shooters feeling compelled to defend their decisions, so here we are in a pi**ing contest now.

In the film days I used Pentax cameras. When the time came to replace my kit with DSLR the two main contenders on the market were Nikon and Canon. For me it was a choice between the Nikon D70S or the Canon Digital Rebel of the time. I had no specific brand preference so I decided to evaluate both. Eventually I chose the Nikon D70S for two specific reasons - I liked the ergonomics of the camera more, and I liked how more different settings could be accomplished with buttons mounted on the body, compared to the Canon where more settings had to be accessed by diving into the menus. To this day I don't believe the Nikon was really any better overall than the Canon in terms of ability to make good images.

At the end of the day I prefer to evaluate a photographer based on the quality of images he or she posts, rather than the gear used. So let's all post and constructively critique images rather than camera choices.
 
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I totally agree with you.
When i I had posted about Z7 ii not being good for action photography many fanboys ( I don't know what else to call them)went bonkers & went to great lengths to say how good It bash s & bash me on the forum .
So there are people on both the sides of the fence & every one need to accept facts as they are & not try to bash others .
We do need debates as long they are civil & that increases our overall knowledge of photography.
I also find it funny when people take objection to a post by a person who has other brands & take no objection when the same brand person posts an adverse comment.
This is hypocrtical & used to happen in forums like NR or SonyRumors.This has started happening here too.

The word fanboy in my mind is always used as an insult unless one uses it about oneself. Try something neutral like 'z7ii owners.' Using fanboy when you are not a fellow fanboy is looking for an argument.
 
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Thank you to Ralph for his original post - much appreciated, not only by myself, but also by many others on this forum. I believe that the majority on this forum are thoughtful and both eager to learn from one another and keen to share their knowledge. As are most, I am a dedicated follower of Steve Perry's writings and videos - this is what attracted me to this forum when initially invited to join, and the insights and civil conversations keep me looking forward to reading posts every day. Not all the posts, of course, but primarily those in my main areas of interest. I do go back and try to catch up on posts in other areas as one never knows through which doorway knowledge will enter.
I believe that words matter and that with care we can avoid provocative words and phrases in our posts - which the majority do already.
So, let's continue on our helpful and thoughtful path and keep this forum as an exemplar of civility.
Cheers to all....Alex
 
I think the individuals that are directly involved in this Sony vs Nikon thing should take a deep breath. Mirrorless or DSLR as well. It’s getting a little ridiculous as Steve pointed out. This forum is about helping and motivating photographers to take better pictures.

Terrific original post, Ralph. Over a coffee yesterday morning I read the attached article. This may seem like a non-sequitur to the theme being discussed here but bear with me for a moment. Basically, this asserts that contemplating the astonishing power of nature relieves feelings of negativity and anxiety and heightens creativity. The aim is to "invoke awe" or wonder at the things we see. It helps to create perspective for who we are and what our place in this world is really about.

I expect all of us within this forum are motivated to try and create awesome or awe-inspiring images...or at least just better pictures. At times, hopefully we all succeed but likely have to put in a lot of time to do so. Regardless of which tool you pick up to try and capture those awe-inspiring images, enjoy the pursuit.

 
I don't remember many posts on this forum where people bashed anyone for making any objective assessments. In fact most of the Nikon Z shooters acknowledged the fact that the other brands had better AF for fast action while also criticizing Nikon for not being upto speed with regard to AF.
Now, as several members have already reiterated in previous posts, the issue is when someone makes a blunt, generic and subjective statement like " The Z cameras can't autofocus or can't shoot wildlife or action" thats when things go out of control.

Despite several folks showing photographs that prove with the right technique/ understanding what a tool can and can't do, it is possible to use the Z cameras for wildlife/ action, there are still these blunt statements causing all sorts of debates.

Are the Zs the most optimal tools for shooting fast action, absolutely not and every Nikon shooter knows that. Can you make great action images with the Zs and the answer is yes and there's enough photographs in this forum and elsewhere to prove it.
When such blunt/subjective assessments get challenged or confronted even in a civil manner, there comes this tag of 'fanboy'.

So the bottom-line i guess is to try and avoid subjectivity/ generic remarks and be specific about one's use cases/ nuances and such an approach can at times even help one learn a thing or two to improve the photography skill.
 
The word fanboy in my mind is always used as an insult unless one uses it about oneself. Try something neutral like 'z7ii owners.' Using fanboy when you are not a fellow fanboy is looking for an argument.

Agreed. And, I fully admit to being a fanboy at times. I love Ford Mustangs. I know there are Camaros and other similar cars that have been as good or better in many aspects through the years, but I like Mustangs for other reasons. Unless I'm poking fun at a friend IN-PERSON who I know will recognize my sarcasm, I'm not about to put down other cars as inferior. I think that kind of thing needs to be avoided on this forum, too.
 
...
So the bottom-line i guess is to try and avoid subjectivity/ generic remarks and be specific about one's use cases/ nuances and such an approach can at times even help one learn a thing or two to improve the photography skill.
And unless a thread is titled specifically for discussion about a given camera/lens talk about photography and technique generically rather than about some specific feature of a given item.
 
HI,

This is the only forum I follow, I have dipped into others and dip out quickly after reading a few posts with individuals that aim to talk about themselves adding no value for others. I read other sites for points of view [Photographic Life, ByThom, etc] taken from recommendation from postings.

I can say honestly I learnt from many with great advice from members on the BCG forum.

My last purchase was the Nikon 500mm PF after sharing my thinking and reading reviews from others with my first post archiving 1K plus views.

I can only say thank you and and fully support the origins of the forum and the unique members that make this special

As to a Z9, I added a D850 just before the 500PF, so I am very much enjoying my current rig for many years to come before moving to mirrorless so please keep adding a mix of posts and help me keep learning

Nobby
 
Lots of good comments here. Disagreement is OK, IF it is done respectfully.

However, I for one, would be much happier if there were less technical/gear discussions and much more image sharing!

That would lower the temperatures on the gear threads, and provide real-life images by which to enjoy and study the images. Given Steve's mastery of the technical, it is understandable that this site started with an emphasis on the technical/gear aspects of photography. But I had hoped it would evolve into a more balanced forum...not dominated by technical discussions but by images from those who actually get out and create images.

Steve is a prime example of someone who is artistic and "speaks" through his images. A lesson we could all learn from.

Let's see who can let their images speak for them!

JMHO..............
 
Here's my take: I don't think Nikon ever advertised or even hinted that the Z6/7 cameras were suitable replacements for the D500 or D850. I've said this before - I believe the Z6 is more of a replacement for the D750, and the Z7 is similar, but with a higher megapixel sensor. So to say the Z7 is no good for action is the same as saying the D750 is no good for action photography. Not too many folks that I know of try to use a D750 for serious wildlife action work, the same as how I could not successfully and consistently use the D7000 series (D7000, D7100, D7500) for years for action wildlife work. I got some amazing images, and I also lost some where the camera's autofocus system could not keep up in some conditions. One learns to live with the limitations of a specific camera, and if it's too frustrating, one replaces the camera with a more capable one (usually at significantly increased cost).

As for firmware updates, yes, I'm also waiting for such an update for my Z6II. Again, Nikon did not promise to improve the firmware in such a way as to make the camera more capable for action work. It is something we're all wishing for. In a couple of years I'll probably replace my Z6II with whatever more capable Nikon is available at the time because I have become more interested in wildlife action photography lately. Now if Nikon can narrow the gap and make the Z6II more capable through firmware I'll probably be happy enough to use it for longer.
Reminds me of a gem of a quote from a philosophy teacher in college that went something like "All absolute statements are absolutely wrong."

Lots of good comments here. Disagreement is OK, IF it is done respectfully.

However, I for one, would be much happier if there were less technical/gear discussions and much more image sharing!

That would lower the temperatures on the gear threads, and provide real-life images by which to enjoy and study the images. Given Steve's mastery of the technical, it is understandable that this site started with an emphasis on the technical/gear aspects of photography. But I had hoped it would evolve into a more balanced forum...not dominated by technical discussions but by images from those who actually get out and create images.

Steve is a prime example of someone who is artistic and "speaks" through his images. A lesson we could all learn from.

Let's see who can let their images speak for them!

JMHO..............

I don't mind any of them if they are respectful and constructive.
 
However, I for one, would be much happier if there were less technical/gear discussions and much more image sharing!

I agree - I wish people would post in the presentation forums more often. I feel like so many members have so many incredible images to show and really, that's the bottom line at the end of the day. Tech talk can turn into a black hole where no photo survives LOL!
 
I agree - I wish people would post in the presentation forums more often. I feel like so many members have so many incredible images to show and really, that's the bottom line at the end of the day. Tech talk can turn into a black hole where no photo survives LOL!
We definitely started that way as you're recall no doubt, the general discussion was far less visited than the wildlife presentation section. And if gear was bought up it was a "how do i" or "recommendations for".
 
Lots of good comments here. Disagreement is OK, IF it is done respectfully.

However, I for one, would be much happier if there were less technical/gear discussions and much more image sharing!

That would lower the temperatures on the gear threads, and provide real-life images by which to enjoy and study the images. Given Steve's mastery of the technical, it is understandable that this site started with an emphasis on the technical/gear aspects of photography. But I had hoped it would evolve into a more balanced forum...not dominated by technical discussions but by images from those who actually get out and create images.

Steve is a prime example of someone who is artistic and "speaks" through his images. A lesson we could all learn from.

Let's see who can let their images speak for them!

JMHO..............

I'd have exactly the opposite point of view, respectfully of course. I like discussing photo topics and technical things. I enjoy some of the photos but don't click on every photo post and I haven't posted pictures here. Also me it is inappropriate to post a photo in someone else's discussion and especially in their gallery presentation unless it specifically addresses the question they are asking. Modifying someone else's work without asking them first is beyond inappropriate in my view.
 
I agree - I wish people would post in the presentation forums more often. I feel like so many members have so many incredible images to show and really, that's the bottom line at the end of the day. Tech talk can turn into a black hole where no photo survives LOL!
@Steve.Would it be possible to add a feature to drag & drop images from the PC to the site & also resize the image automatically
It would save some time specially if we are adding five images to the post.
One of the biggest problem every one will be facing ( with higher frame rate cameras) is to process images thx to the high frame rates ( I do remember you mentioning in one of your posts that you are also way behind in your post processing work).
I do follow your advice religiously and take more shots of the same subject 😁
Hope I am not missing some thing by asking for the feature request
 
I'd have exactly the opposite point of view, respectfully of course. I like discussing photo topics and technical things. I enjoy some of the photos but don't click on every photo post and I haven't posted pictures here. Also me it is inappropriate to post a photo in someone else's discussion and especially in their gallery presentation unless it specifically addresses the question they are asking. Modifying someone else's work without asking them first is beyond inappropriate in my view.
I am also in favour of technical discussions since one gets to know the pros & cons .
I am sure even gear purchase decisions are made by many after reading the posts..I try to follow as many threads as posible to learn from others experiences & I have learnt a lot
I for one bought A1 after reading Steve's review of it( & also his not so favourable comments on a particular brands mirroless camera)
I also bought DxoPhotolab ( that too with a big discount) after reading the recommendation in the forum since i was struggling with the A1 raw files in the beginning.
Most important thing I have learnt here is that not to go for any brand blindly .
 
I'd have exactly the opposite point of view, respectfully of course. I like discussing photo topics and technical things. I enjoy some of the photos but don't click on every photo post and I haven't posted pictures here. Also me it is inappropriate to post a photo in someone else's discussion and especially in their gallery presentation unless it specifically addresses the question they are asking. Modifying someone else's work without asking them first is beyond inappropriate in my view.
I am also in favour of technical discussions since one gets to know the pros & cons .
I am sure even gear purchase decisions are made by many after reading the posts..I try to follow as many threads as posible to learn from others experiences & I have learnt a lot
I for one bought A1 after reading Steve's review of it( & also his not so favourable comments on a particular brands mirroless camera)
I also bought DxoPhotolab ( that too with a big discount) after reading the recommendation in the forum since i was struggling with the A1 raw files in the beginning.
Most important thing I have learnt here is that not to go for any brand blindly .
I did not suggest eliminating gear discussions, nor modifying images by others, nor posting one's images in someone else's threads.... ??? Not sure the point of brining those things up since they fall under the category of being respectful to others. If you are respectful of others, you don't do those kind of things.

I simply indicated a preference for a more balanced forum between tech talk versus image presentations. Anyone remember the country song lyrics "A little less talk and a lot more action" :D
 
@Steve.Would it be possible to add a feature to drag & drop images from the PC to the site & also resize the image automatically
It would save some time specially if we are adding five images to the post.
One of the biggest problem every one will be facing ( with higher frame rate cameras) is to process images thx to the high frame rates ( I do remember you mentioning in one of your posts that you are also way behind in your post processing work).
I do follow your advice religiously and take more shots of the same subject 😁
Hope I am not missing some thing by asking for the feature request
As long as the image is size properly, you should be able to drag and drop - I do it all the time.
I am planning to do am update to the forum software and the newer version may include a resize function - that would make it handy. (I have a few things on the server that need updated first - it's never ending).
 
As long as the image is size properly, you should be able to drag and drop - I do it all the time.
I am planning to do am update to the forum software and the newer version may include a resize function - that would make it handy. (I have a few things on the server that need updated first - it's never ending).
Thx Steve.I will give it a try
 
I did not suggest eliminating gear discussions, nor modifying images by others, nor posting one's images in someone else's threads.... ??? Not sure the point of brining those things up since they fall under the category of being respectful to others. If you are respectful of others, you don't do those kind of things.

I simply indicated a preference for a more balanced forum between tech talk versus image presentations. Anyone remember the country song lyrics "A little less talk and a lot more action" :D

You make several good points. I was just expressing my appreciation for the technical discussions as you were expressing your appreciation of the photo sharing. I guess it's good there is a subforum for general photo discussion, and other subforums for presentation and critique. That way I can click the general photo forum more often and expect to find people who want to talk about tech things, and also occasionally click the presentation forum to look at pictures. You might do the opposite, more often click the presentation forums and less often the general photo discussion. It's all good.

The part about posting photos was not directed at you or anyone in particular, it's just something I noticed more here, that discussions are often filled with photos not by the original poster that are unrelated to the question being asked or by someone changing the OP's image without being asked to show how they think it could be better. If asked, it's very generous of folks to spend their time editing someone else's work.
 
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