Darwin
Well-known member
It’s definitely not just you!
Z9 Performance with Existing Glass
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My experience is when you are completely out of focus the Z camera may struggle. I attribute this to the camera - not the FTZ. If you prefocus or are fine tuning focus, it's near instantaneous. There are still slow focusing lenses - and they are no better. But fast focusing lenses are excellent with good technique. IF the camera can't find the AF target and gets lost, it can be considered slower, but manually adjusting is faster. I find it easy to focus manually through branches.
There is more than just AF speed. I consider accuracy important, and the Z cameras with the FTZ are more accurate. Again - it's attributed to the camera and how it focuses. But you normally would not need AF fine tuning with the Z cameras. My lens + TC combinations are much more accurate without adjustment. Also consider that with the Z cameras, you get equal AF performance with any sensor in the frame while with a DSLR you can't always use the outer AF points.
In general, newer lenses are going to perform better than older lenses. But again, that's the lens rather than the FTZ.
I always appreciate your insights and voice of reason! Eagerly awaiting the announcements with fingers crossed. Want to keep my glass. Thanks Eric!
I understand your point…but think you’re making too much of the numbers and not enough of the does it make a difference. Other‘s mileage may vary…but from a practical standpoint I don’t see a difference…strictly numerically it is slower…but since mine is focus distance limiter on almost all the time the difference in focus from infinity to close is so small as to be negligible.
FB101
Well-known member
I think it depends a lot on how and what you shoot. Larger, slower BIF with a clean background work great with the Z cameras; I tested the Z7ii + 500pf and I was quite pleased with the results on egrets and cormorants and albatros in flight. As you said, limiter on, this combo locked on and tracked quite well and focus was tack sharp (actually better than the D850, especially with the 1.4TC on) - I really enjoyed that experience but that's not a taxing situation.
The next day I went to the beach, laying in the sand right at the water's edge trying to capture sandpipers and other frantic little birds on the water line and it was a disaster. I was often at close focusing distances (so limiter off), where speed matters more, with unpredictable movements and crashing waves in the background that kept fooling the AF. As Eric said, prefocus helped a lot but the AF still got fooled way too often because those birds don't sit still. After fighting it for an hour I went back to the D850 and had much better success.
That experience (and a few other repeats the following days with agitated warblers in trees covered with Spanish moss, another arch nemesis of the Z7ii AF system) convinced me that as much as it excelled in some situations, the Z7ii also wasn't good enough in others and that for the time being I am better off shooting the D850 at all time (or D500) because the D850's weaknesses are not as problematic to me as the Z7ii's.
So it's not "numbers" in my case, it's real world experience - had I stopped after day 1, I would have sold my D850 and transitioned and regretted it dearly later on. But your and Eric's points are completely valid - for some use cases the Z cameras are significantly better than any dSLR.
Yeah dido but I found the cure. I bought an a1 and now I don’t have to wait or speculate how good it will be. I’m out there using it rather than dreaming.
Thank you for sharing this! I chase birds too and have wondered if I wasn't missing something by not getting what Nikon does have to offer at this time. I will wait for the Z9.
BrianSmall
Active member
Here's the problem for you Nikon guys. By the time Nikon comes out with a full mirrorless lineup.....................perhaps 2+ years................Sony will already be on to an a2, second generation 600 f/4 and other goodies a professional photographer like myself needs. Nikon will ALWAYS be behind and I got sick of waiting around for them. That's why I dumped all my Nikon DSLR gear 6 months ago and moved to Sony. It's SO annoying when a company like Nikon teases the public with their dumb videos about stuff that's "coming soon" or their "roadmap" full of stuff that takes years to show up.
Did I mention the a1 and beautifully lightweight 600 f/4 are the best tools on the market for a bird photographer like myself? Best thing I ever did was moving to Sony and haven't looked back since.
Did I mention the a1 and beautifully lightweight 600 f/4 are the best tools on the market for a bird photographer like myself? Best thing I ever did was moving to Sony and haven't looked back since.
O
Well-known member
There are a lots of reasons why and how and when will with Nikon ........the best way to deal with this is to put all these wondering questions in the garbage bin and out for collection.
The Bottom line is....
If you feel you have exhausted the full capabilities of your existing tool kit then yes move to the next level, what ever that may be.
If you feel there are alternative tools out there that can really get you a greater keeper rate, make you more successful, provide tangible cutting edge benefits, then go for it.
Will these new tools make you a better photographer, No.
Will these new tools possibly make you better photos technically very likely YES, then go for it.
Several things come into play that rival Brands, technology, bells and whistles and that is ......
Change is constant, time is like water dripping through a hole in the bottom of a bucket, its gone, its gone, and cant come back...
Often The issue is not making a decision, its making the decision to make the decision.
Money comes and goes and can often be replaced or found if needed, time cant.
If and when needed I Hire borrow exotic gear best suited for the purpose so i don't miss out on opportunities or waste time.
As is said some time ago I am waiting for 2022 even late 2022 as there is so much more to come.
The future will bring several things after the 3 majors all catch up...fundamentally..........
1) incremental advancement in technology on a regular basis to support frequent model releases similar to smart phones.
2) higher prices particularly in glass.
3) significant depreciation of FX existing equipment and newer equipment as more frequent models will be released compared to the past.
4) the hobby will become more expensive.
5) the hobby will become far more plagiarized with beginners who buy an A1 or R3 walk out the front door and will be as good as many of us straight off the mark, with perfect exposure, eye focus tracking iso shutter speed, even now with the R3 having fighter pilot technology ie: where your eye is focused is where the camera focuses.
6) The industry is not focusing just on the exiting older passionate photographers as much as they want the new market buyers who are the future growth in sales, buyers who want Video and stills in a hybrid system and don't require a lot of skill sets, these buyers can pick up a new camera and nail each shot as a money shot.
Example......My girlfriend who is not a photographer at all and has NO real desire to be one, picked up my friends A1 in full auto mode wondered around and just absolutely nailed everything moving or still, it was an epiphany moment.
Things haven't been the same since, LOL
I imagine for her or any novices it would be the same with an R3...........or the Z9
Only an opinion Oz down under.
The Bottom line is....
If you feel you have exhausted the full capabilities of your existing tool kit then yes move to the next level, what ever that may be.
If you feel there are alternative tools out there that can really get you a greater keeper rate, make you more successful, provide tangible cutting edge benefits, then go for it.
Will these new tools make you a better photographer, No.
Will these new tools possibly make you better photos technically very likely YES, then go for it.
Several things come into play that rival Brands, technology, bells and whistles and that is ......
Change is constant, time is like water dripping through a hole in the bottom of a bucket, its gone, its gone, and cant come back...
Often The issue is not making a decision, its making the decision to make the decision.
Money comes and goes and can often be replaced or found if needed, time cant.
If and when needed I Hire borrow exotic gear best suited for the purpose so i don't miss out on opportunities or waste time.
As is said some time ago I am waiting for 2022 even late 2022 as there is so much more to come.
The future will bring several things after the 3 majors all catch up...fundamentally..........
1) incremental advancement in technology on a regular basis to support frequent model releases similar to smart phones.
2) higher prices particularly in glass.
3) significant depreciation of FX existing equipment and newer equipment as more frequent models will be released compared to the past.
4) the hobby will become more expensive.
5) the hobby will become far more plagiarized with beginners who buy an A1 or R3 walk out the front door and will be as good as many of us straight off the mark, with perfect exposure, eye focus tracking iso shutter speed, even now with the R3 having fighter pilot technology ie: where your eye is focused is where the camera focuses.
6) The industry is not focusing just on the exiting older passionate photographers as much as they want the new market buyers who are the future growth in sales, buyers who want Video and stills in a hybrid system and don't require a lot of skill sets, these buyers can pick up a new camera and nail each shot as a money shot.
Example......My girlfriend who is not a photographer at all and has NO real desire to be one, picked up my friends A1 in full auto mode wondered around and just absolutely nailed everything moving or still, it was an epiphany moment.
Things haven't been the same since, LOL
I imagine for her or any novices it would be the same with an R3...........or the Z9
Only an opinion Oz down under.
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D
Deleted member 115
Guest
"5) the hobby will become far more plagiarized with beginners who buy an A1 or R3 walk out the front door and will be as good as many of us straight off the mark, with perfect exposure, eye focus tracking iso shutter speed, even now with the R3 having fighter pilot technology ie: where your eye is focused is where the camera focuses.
6) The industry is not focusing just on the exiting older passionate photographers as much as they want the new market buyers who are the future growth in sales, buyers who want Video and stills in a hybrid system and don't require a lot of skill sets, these buyers can pick up a new camera and nail each shot as a money shot.
Example......My girlfriend who is not a photographer at all and has real desire to be one, picked up my friends an A1 in full auto mode wondered around and just absolutely nailed everything moving or still, it was an epiphany moment."
D
Deleted member 115
Guest
I agree, not a pro but the Sony A1 makes Birding much funner even with my 200-600 G lens.
Bingo. I did the same thing this year. It’s a pure joy to shoot.
fcotterill
Well-known member
If you simply must only own pure Z Mirrorless and nothing in F-mount, wait until Spring 2022, but the price tags will add up to about $30000: Z9, 400 S, 600 S, pair of Z-TCs, plus a choice selected across the zooms and primes of 14 to 200mm, plus 100-400 S, 200-600.
Bottomline: High quality lenses which autofocus reliably on Nikon Z cameras are not a barrier for the pragmatic outdoor photographer. Pragmatism includes the strategy of a mixed Z and F lenses and cameras: notably the simple tactic of adapting F mount telephotos.
The 2 big holes are a relatively Affordable [~$2000-2500] DX MILC aka Z90, which fills the vacant D500-type niche, and a prosumer Z8 FX priced < $4 K. If you are able to afford a Z9, there are no problems whatsoever.
To summarise, there is an unmatched choice of telephotos, because the FTZ works well with G and E F-Nikkors.
Bottomline: High quality lenses which autofocus reliably on Nikon Z cameras are not a barrier for the pragmatic outdoor photographer. Pragmatism includes the strategy of a mixed Z and F lenses and cameras: notably the simple tactic of adapting F mount telephotos.
The 2 big holes are a relatively Affordable [~$2000-2500] DX MILC aka Z90, which fills the vacant D500-type niche, and a prosumer Z8 FX priced < $4 K. If you are able to afford a Z9, there are no problems whatsoever.
To summarise, there is an unmatched choice of telephotos, because the FTZ works well with G and E F-Nikkors.
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fcotterill
Well-known member
Keep the Lenses, change the Bodies.... but in fact there are already far too many choices of Choice optics just in the Z System, let alone G and E Telephotos for Outdoor genres. If a D6, Z9 cannot work then the problems more likely lie in refining one's fieldcraft, and those of us outdoors know the lessons in natural history are unceasing.
For anyone feeling insecure about the future of their photographic system: today or at the hypothetical cutting edge of digital imaging , here's a non-Hysterical overview:
photographylife.com
"...In total, every Nikon Z lens we know about is as follows [Sep 2021]. Lenses that have not yet been formally announced are marked in bold:
12-24 DX
14-24mm f/2.8 S
14-30mm f/4 S
16-50mm f/3.5-6.3 DX VR
18-140mm f/3.5-6.3 DX VR
20mm f/1.8 S
24mm f/1.8 S
24-50mm f/4-6.3
24-70mm f/2.8 S
24-70mm f/4 S
28-75 f2.8
24-120mm f4S
24-200mm f/4-6.3 VR
28mm f/2.8 SE
28mm f/2.8
35mm f/1.8 S
40mm f/2
50mm f/2.8 macro lens
50mm f/1.2 S
50mm f/1.8 S
50-250mm f/4.5-5.6 DX VR
58mm f/0.95 S
70-200mm f/2.8 VR S
85mm S (likely f/1.2)
85mm f/1.8 S
100-400mm f4.5/5.6S
105mm f/2.8 VR S macro lens
200-600mm (non-S lineup)
400mm S PF
400mm f/2.8S TC14
600mm S (likely f/4)
800mm f6.3S PF
1.4x Teleconverter
2.0x Teleconverter
// snip
EDIT: it is relevant to list the F-Nikkors telephotos, which will all work well on the Z9 (although some G-aperture lenses may struggle with frames rates > 12fps)
F-Mount
80-400 G
200-500 f5.6E
120-300 f2.8E SR
200-400 f4G VR II
180-400 f4E TC14
200-500 f5.6E
200 f2G VR II
300 f4E PF
300 f2.8G
400 f2.8E FL
500 f5.6E PF
500 f4E FL
600 f4E FL
800 f5.6E FL +TC125
1.4x III Teleconverter
1.7x II Teleconverter
2.0x III Teleconverter
For anyone feeling insecure about the future of their photographic system: today or at the hypothetical cutting edge of digital imaging , here's a non-Hysterical overview:
Nikon Z Lens Roadmap (Updated March 2024)
Wondering about the Nikon Z lens roadmap? In this article, we detail everything we know about the upcoming lenses for the Z mount.
photographylife.com
"...In total, every Nikon Z lens we know about is as follows [Sep 2021]. Lenses that have not yet been formally announced are marked in bold:
12-24 DX
14-24mm f/2.8 S
14-30mm f/4 S
16-50mm f/3.5-6.3 DX VR
18-140mm f/3.5-6.3 DX VR
20mm f/1.8 S
24mm f/1.8 S
24-50mm f/4-6.3
24-70mm f/2.8 S
24-70mm f/4 S
28-75 f2.8
24-120mm f4S
24-200mm f/4-6.3 VR
28mm f/2.8 SE
28mm f/2.8
35mm f/1.8 S
40mm f/2
50mm f/2.8 macro lens
50mm f/1.2 S
50mm f/1.8 S
50-250mm f/4.5-5.6 DX VR
58mm f/0.95 S
70-200mm f/2.8 VR S
85mm S (likely f/1.2)
85mm f/1.8 S
100-400mm f4.5/5.6S
105mm f/2.8 VR S macro lens
200-600mm (non-S lineup)
400mm S PF
400mm f/2.8S TC14
600mm S (likely f/4)
800mm f6.3S PF
1.4x Teleconverter
2.0x Teleconverter
// snip
EDIT: it is relevant to list the F-Nikkors telephotos, which will all work well on the Z9 (although some G-aperture lenses may struggle with frames rates > 12fps)
F-Mount
80-400 G
200-500 f5.6E
120-300 f2.8E SR
200-400 f4G VR II
180-400 f4E TC14
200-500 f5.6E
200 f2G VR II
300 f4E PF
300 f2.8G
400 f2.8E FL
500 f5.6E PF
500 f4E FL
600 f4E FL
800 f5.6E FL +TC125
1.4x III Teleconverter
1.7x II Teleconverter
2.0x III Teleconverter
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I’ll begin by saying that I don’t doubt for one second that the Sony A1 is among the finest of the current generation of cameras. That said, quite a few if the recent Sony converts are behaving somewhat like ex smokers.....
One of the problems with being on top is someone is always nipping at your heels. When you’re on top there is only one way you can go.....down.
If someone should overtake Sony for the number one mantle, we’ll be needing to hide all sharp objects lest the fanboys seriously hurt themselves.
I am not against tools and technology that makes things easier, I’m sure “professional bird photographers“ managed to survive prior to the A1. The A1 didn’t make someone a professional, that was their skill. Others with little or no skill can try to emulate that but that will soon become obvious.
Unfortunately many of us don’t have the capacity to just “dump” what you have and jump to the next best thing. We can’t tax deduct and depreciate our gear or justify on the basis of income earned.
Would I like to have a BMW in stead of my Toyota.... heck yeah. Would I like an A1 instead of a D850..... most probably.....can I afford either...No.
What I have is what fits my budget and needs, similarly for you.
BrianSmall
Active member
FWIW, camera gear is nothing more to me than a tool for my job. I don't consider myself a "fanboy" at all. I started with Nikon, went to Canon, then back to Nikon and now to Sony as each company made what I felt was the best tool available for my job. One side benefit of switching for me is gaining knowledge about each system and I can help people with varying gear during my workshops. Camera gear generally holds it's value pretty well and switching really isn't as cost prohibitive as you many think. Furthermore, as I make my living at photography I simply want the best tools I can find. It would be the same if I were a plumber, race car driver or airplane mechanic.
As far as "someone nipping at your heels" I kind of disagree when it comes to Nikon. As I said in my first post, I feel Nikon will always be behind. Just too small a company to compete as a leader against giants like Sony and Canon. Sony got such a headstart in the mirorrless marketplace that I expect them to continue to innovate and to lead the market.
Finally, the a1 is such a leap forward from the D850 I was shooting before that it honestly doesn't seem fair........................the a1 is a revolutionary camera for a bird photographer.
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Darwin
Well-known member
It’s a parochial way of thinking to assume Sony won’t stay on top. We can make conjectures but only time will tell. Sony may be king for as long as cameras exist. Who knows what future technology brings. We might all be taking pictures with our eyes and uploading to a screen in twenty years. The fact is eventually everyone catches up until someone takes the next step. Who takes the step, have to wait and see. But anything is possible, including Sony staying on top. We are all lucky to have several companies competing. If it weren’t for competition we might still be in the dark rooms and using scanners for digital uploading.
D
Deleted member 115
Guest
Not a fan boy. I paid for one and it works great.
Your comment by definition is “sour grapes”
I don’t make a penny off of photography. I do it for enjoyment. My return on investment is how much more fun it is shooting with the A1.
If Nikon manages to come up with something better I’ll probably buy one, not whine about it.
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D
Deleted member 115
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A1 “about as good” as his D6?
How does he come up with that? I don’t own a D6 but everyone else in the world seems to have achieved much higher keeper rates with A1
FB101
Well-known member
It's simple really,
Thom has perfect framing at all times so he throws away the 30MP from the A1 that he doesn't need.
He also has perfect sense of timing and hits the trigger at the right time every time so he throws away the 16 fps that are wasted with the A1
His own brilliance illuminates the room so he doesn't need silent strobe sync at 1/200s because he doesn't need a strobe
His thumb has been trained by Chinese Monks and is so fast that he can do real-time tracking of the subject's eye better than the algorithm of the A1
Thom is really the Chuck Norris of photography - I am surprised you didn't know that
D
Deleted member 115
Guest
I am fairly new to this world of photography forums. But thanks now I know why so many people worship him.It's simple really,
Thom has perfect framing at all times so he throws away the 30MP from the A1 that he doesn't need.
He also has perfect sense of timing and hits the trigger at the right time every time so he throws away the 16 fps that are wasted with the A1
His own brilliance illuminates the room so he doesn't need silent strobe sync at 1/200s because he doesn't need a strobe
His thumb has been trained by Chinese Monks and is so fast that he can do real-time tracking of the subject's eye better than the algorithm of the A1
Thom is really the Chuck Norris of photography - I am surprised you didn't know that
I’ve never smoked but you can call me a fanboy if you like, I suppose I was a Nikon fanboy since I spent tens of thousands of dollars on Nikon gear for decades. Bottom line is a camera and lens is a tool. If I was a mechanic for a profession or in my own driveway I’d want the best tool for the job at hand. Today that is the a1. Will it be tomorrow? Who knows but if a better tool is created I’ll buy it as well. I make no money from photography anymore but I take it very seriously. I believe my passion is worth investing in.
D
Deleted member 115
Guest
What the hell do ex-smokers behave like anyway? lol
They tend to be zealots and far less tolerant of smokers than the typical non smokers.
I seemed to have touched a few raw nerves here. I don’t actually recall criticising anyone’s choice or motivation nor whining about my situation.
Anyone naive enough to believe that their brand choice will always be ahead / on top should take a look at the history of Formula 1. There are a lot of hero to zero stories there.
I am more than happy with what I have and am pleased that your choice is working for you. My reasons for staying put are mine as your reasons for switching are yours.
I guess the A1 fellas have another problem looming too... with so many “keepers” how will you choose between them? Maybe you’ll need to redefine keeper. Yeah I know, a tough job but someone has to do it.....
thelordofthelight
Well-known member
And a timely article by Thom on this topic:
Quoted from the below link:
" Now, it may be that some feature of some model might help you get past your problem (;~). Many who've picked up Sony mirrorless cameras and set them to all-automatic focus are getting better results than they got with the autofocus system they didn't bother to learn on their DSLR, so they proclaim Sony as a clear winner. This isn't performance, per se, but a feature controlling performance. With a little study, I get perfectly fine focus results with every full frame camera these days, DSLR or mirrorless. Indeed, in most cases—even on the Sony models—my controlled focus produces better results than Sony's all automatic modes. I'm comfortable with taking the time to produce a better result, some of you aren't. But at the same time I'm not sure that today Sony's all automatic is particularly better than Canon's or Nikon's: you have to get into nuance to distinguish them is my contention. "
Quoted from the below link:
" Now, it may be that some feature of some model might help you get past your problem (;~). Many who've picked up Sony mirrorless cameras and set them to all-automatic focus are getting better results than they got with the autofocus system they didn't bother to learn on their DSLR, so they proclaim Sony as a clear winner. This isn't performance, per se, but a feature controlling performance. With a little study, I get perfectly fine focus results with every full frame camera these days, DSLR or mirrorless. Indeed, in most cases—even on the Sony models—my controlled focus produces better results than Sony's all automatic modes. I'm comfortable with taking the time to produce a better result, some of you aren't. But at the same time I'm not sure that today Sony's all automatic is particularly better than Canon's or Nikon's: you have to get into nuance to distinguish them is my contention. "