A curious question about the Z cameras

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From the OP. How do we relate AF/AE calculations per second to sensor readout rate? The Z9 sensor has been reported to have a 4ms read time (Nikon Rumors, Z9 Specifications, Update 2). Thom says some say that read speed is 4.2ms. I have not seen Nikon publish this read speed - they do say the new Z9 sensor has the “worlds fastest scanning speed” with a footnote (Nikon USA reference below). I have seen this read speed related to shutter speed and sync speeds.. not to AF/AE speed.

Nikon Z System News and Commentary | Thom Hogan

Nikon Z System news and commentary
www.zsystemuser.com

Nikon says the Z9 handles 120 AF/AE calculations per second - between the lens and camera through the Z mount.

I don’t recall seeing these measures reported for earlier Z models.

Nikon does say - as for the EXPEED 7, “10x faster than previous generations” - that the new Z9 sensor provides, “12x faster data readout than the acclaimed Z 7II”

Nikon Z 9 | Flagship Z Mirrorless Camera

The Nikon Z 9 is a 45.7MP mirrorless camera features a pro build, blazing fast 120 fps stills, 8K UHD video, blackout free Real-Llve Viewfinder and 4-axis tilting touch LCD and more.
www.nikonusa.com

I don’t know how to readily relate 120 AF/AE calculations per second to the Z 6ii/7ii? All I can point to is the fps rates with AF/AE active.
 
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txstone said:
I don’t know how to readily relate 120 AF/AE calculations per second to the Z 6ii/7ii? All I can point to is the fps rates with AF/AE active.
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I don't think there is an easy way to know. The calcs per second is going to be some lowest common denominator of the sensor readout speed (or at least the parts that are used for af) and the af processor, both of which are radically slower on the "ii" cameras.
 
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Z7 II does Wildlife and BIF if you know how to use it.... Not tack sharpe but the Mallards were taken with the TC 114 III mounted to the 500PF ss 2500 f8. The Doe leaping the Fence without the TC mounted 500 PF and low light. I use the D500 and the D850 for my Wildlife Photography / BIF and yes I knew the Z 7II had some focusing tracking parameters not like the D500 and D850. The Z 7II is primarily my Landscape Camera and I do have a Z9 on order.

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Palouse said:
Long long ago, in a time before digital ware, I owned a humble Nikon FM. 1 frame at a time, as fast as could wind the film, no auto focus, no ISO (ASA) above 200, no LCD to chimp on, and so on, yet I, and many even better than me survived and thrived.

It appears that Z9 has beaten the pants off of you and you must now beat up on old Nikon models. How sad.

EDIT: To adapt your signature quote:
"Love your camera & your camera loves you back"
Click to expand...

Too true. Some of my manual b&w or Kodachrome shots are better compositions than anything I have done with my D850. Having just one opportunity and having to think about it has advantages.
 
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Palouse said:
Long long ago, in a time before digital ware, I owned a humble Nikon FM. 1 frame at a time, as fast as could wind the film, no auto focus, no ISO (ASA) above 200, no LCD to chimp on, and so on, yet I, and many even better than me survived and thrived.

It appears that Z9 has beaten the pants off of you and you must now beat up on old Nikon models. How sad.

EDIT: To adapt your signature quote:
"Love your camera & your camera loves you back"
Click to expand...
Yes I do love all my D 500 ,D 850 & A1.I will also be getting Z8 when it comes.to pair it with my 500 PF So whar are you ranting about
 
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Hut2 said:
The beaver tail is epic!
I am just a big dummy that needs all the help I can get so I like the new 120 computation per second stuff.
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Thanks!... I posted this because there is nothing slow about the slap of a beaver tail. Catching this is about as unpredictable as catching a breaching dolphin on the run... I know because I've got the pictures and failures to prove it. The fact that the AF is good enough to track this, points to the capacity of the Z6II AF module. Now, to be clear, I would have probably had a sequence of 5 or 6 in focus photos had this been shot with the Z9... maybe I'll be fortunate to own one by June, 2022 and I will have an opportunity to give it a go... ;)
regards,
bruce
 
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Venkatesh VT said:
I dont know whose company you keep probably only the rolling eyes with eyes closed...
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I don't know what this means but it seems that I insulted you. That wasn't my intent. The gif is called roll eyes but my use of it was simply eyes looking up. As in thinking but don't know what to say. Because your prior comment was blaming Nikon for what they did not say. I should hope we don't all get blamed for things we don't say. Just imagine it...
BLev65 said:
...I know it is hard to believe, but the Z-series can be used to photograph wildlife... see below
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Good reminder there's life beyond BIF. Many of us equate wildlife with BIF only. Best way to describe it is that the current Z cameras are not intended for action. Though they work fine even on BIF if the motion is lateral.
 
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Palouse said:
Why? You have all these unanswered "questions".
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No.I dont have answers for all & i dont rant on others posts backed by facts .How ever i knew that many people who bought Nikon Z series are not happy that they could not do what they could do with d 500 & D 850 for wild life(please also note that this forum has been created by Steve who is known for his wild life photography skills & i am here because i too do wild life photography & he has been clear that from a wild life photography point of view that Z series i & ii are not up to the mark)
You can continue your rants if you wish.I have nothing else to say
 
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Venkatesh VT said:

Steve did think Z series as Wild life cameras as can be seen in the video
As for myself I did not buy the Z cameras & do feel.sorry for people who bought it for wild life & still hoping that Nikon would really improve its AF.
I am pretty happy with my A1 and hope Nikon brings out a Z 8 ( mirrorless version of D 850) so that I can use my 500 PF.
I do find Z9 heavy for my kind of birding photography
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No need to feel sorry for me, both the Z6 and Z6ii have served me well shoting wildlife and I have made my best images with these cameras 😊 Soon the Z9 will take over and do the job.
 
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Steve's video only reiterates what a lot of us are saying here time and again..in capable hands, the Z's can do wildlife/action. Is it the optimal tool? Absolutely not, which is why Nikon didn't project those cameras as wildlife or action oriented ones. But it is also not as bad as the Nikon bashers may want us to believe. People use the 'not so ideal' tool for a job from one brand and then use the best tool for the same job from another brand and then start ranting about it.

Hatred towards the old brand plus confirmation bias towards the new brand plus buyer's remorse all at once can be quite a deadly combination ;-)
 
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thelordofthelight said:
Hatred towards the old brand plus confirmation bias towards the new brand plus buyer's remorse all at once can be quite a deadly combination ;-)
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What a convoluted interpretation of the truth & not accepting the facts as they are.The fact is D 850 & D 500 are old models which are not bettered by new models of Z for wild life.If this is too difficult to accept no can do nothing about it
Secondly I still have my D 500 ,D 850 & 2 500 PF lenses ( no plans to ever sell them) & shoot with them too apart from A1 with 200 600 mm
How ever I am no fan boy of any brand & judge each camera & lens by its pros & cons based based what it offers for wild life photography .Hence I never touched Z series & hoping Z8 will be a lighter version of Z9 to pair it with my 500 PF
 
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Differing experiences depend on context, subject, and not least skill sets ;) and I fully respect those for whome these Z cameras have become their core instruments in their wildlife photography. Their results speak loudest ! (y)(y)(y):D

The Z6 and Z7 have worked really well for many out there, including Brad Hill (see his blog and most recently at the end of his talk this week).

Personally, as a very early buyer of a Z7, which I used intensively F Nikkor telephotos and fast shorter primes eg 58 f1.4G, I found it focused these more reliably ie improved precision compared to D850 etc. It proved excellent for portraits etc of the larger mammals occupying much of the frame. Many of these were taken in 2018 with the first generation Z AF. But too often, I found the AF struggled by grabbing background on more challenging subjects. The Z7 lost too many opportunities that a DSLR would have clinched, especially using instant-switching to single-point from Group AF or a dynamic-area Mode on a D850.

I found 2nd generation Z AF ie Fw 2 improved key aspects but did not fix these problems especially because since 2016, I've become highly dependent on the Pro-type Shooting & Custom Banks and more complete Custom options ie D500, D850 and refined further in the D5 and D6. The state of the Z6 and Z7 AF would benefit hugely if Nikon bothered to simply give its loyal clients the straightforward expansion of Custom menu settings to assign AFMode+AFOn to the Fn controls - thus one gets the ability at one's fingertips for instant-switching, and as importantly to assign such AF presets to the Lens-Fn buttons on telephotos, notably Memory-Recall. This neglect by Nikon 3+ years later continues to cripple these very capable instruments. These failures remain one of Nikon's biggest mistakes IMHO since launching the Z system.

BLev65 said:
Thanks!... I posted this because there is nothing slow about the slap of a beaver tail. Catching this is about as unpredictable as catching a breaching dolphin on the run... I know because I've got the pictures and failures to prove it. The fact that the AF is good enough to track this, points to the capacity of the Z6II AF module. Now, to be clear, I would have probably had a sequence of 5 or 6 in focus photos had this been shot with the Z9... maybe I'll be fortunate to own one by June, 2022 and I will have an opportunity to give it a go... ;)
regards,
bruce
Click to expand...
 
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fcotterill said:
Differing experiences depend on context, subject, and not least skill sets ;) and I fully respect those for whome these Z cameras have become their core instruments in their wildlife photography. Their results speak loudest ! (y)(y)(y):D

The Z6 and Z7 have worked really well for many out there, including Brad Hill (see his blog and most recently at the end of his talk this week).

Personally, as a very early buyer of a Z7, which I used intensively F Nikkor telephotos and fast shorter primes eg 58 f1.4G, I found it focused these more reliably ie improved precision compared to D850 etc. It proved excellent for portraits etc of the larger mammals occupying much of the frame. Many of these were taken in 2018 with the first generation Z AF. But too often, I found the AF struggled by grabbing background on more challenging subjects. The Z7 lost too many opportunities that a DSLR would have clinched, especially using instant-switching to single-point from Group AF or a dynamic-area Mode on a D850.

I found 2nd generation Z AF ie Fw 2 improved key aspects but did not fix these problems especially because since 2016, I've become highly dependent on the Pro-type Shooting & Custom Banks and more complete Custom options ie D500, D850 and refined further in the D5 and D6. The state of the Z6 and Z7 AF would benefit hugely if Nikon bothered to simply give its loyal clients the straightforward expansion of Custom menu settings to assign AFMode+AFOn to the Fn controls - thus one gets the ability at one's fingertips for instant-switching, and as importantly to assign such AF presets to the Lens-Fn buttons on telephotos, notably Memory-Recall. This neglect by Nikon 3+ years later continues to cripple these very capable instruments. These failures remain one of Nikon's biggest mistakes IMHO since launching the Z system.
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Very well brought out. Hope Nikon redeems itself by making Z series at par with D 500/ D 850 with firmware updates
 
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Just to comment about my intent on the original post.... I feel its a compliment to the Z series that they work so well while being obviously hampered by processor power. That lack of processor power could have lead to very innovative programming to accomplish the required tasks. The early Z cameras are why we seem to be getting such a good flagship. Without the lessons learned there Nikon might not be headed in the right direction today.
 
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NorthernFocus said:
I don't know what this means but it seems that I insulted you. That wasn't my intent. The gif is called roll eyes but my use of it was simply eyes looking up. As in thinking but don't know what to say. Because your prior comment was blaming Nikon for what they did not say. I should hope we don't all get blamed for things we don't say. Just imagine it...

Good reminder there's life beyond BIF. Many of us equate wildlife with BIF only. Best way to describe it is that the current Z cameras are not intended for action. Though they work fine even on BIF if the motion is lateral.
Click to expand...
I think your last statement is not accurate...
I use my Z6II for bird photography as well. It does just fine with larger birds like waterfowl, owls, raptors, swans, cranes, herons and loons. The perceived weakness of the Z6/Z7 AF system is linked to its tendency to catch backgrounds when there is a lot of contrast between the background and subject. Under these conditions, one must do a bit of pre-focusing.
I also do not think the Z AF does well when photographing small birds surrounded by sticks, but hey... who wants a picture of a small bird surrounding by a bunch of sticks anyway? When thinking about AF, I am looking for a system that can track and maintain focus, the Z bodies can do this well. The big limit relates to the extra time it takes to lock on... this is where the Z9 will transition us to a new level... until I can afford one, I'll live with my limitations... Here's an Z6II w/ 200-400VR f/4 BIF coming straight at me.
cheers,
bruce
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Venkatesh VT said:
What a convoluted interpretation of the truth & not accepting the facts as they are.The fact is D 850 & D 500 are old models which are not bettered by new models of Z for wild life.If this is too difficult to accept no can do nothing about it
Secondly I still have my D 500 ,D 850 & 2 500 PF lenses ( no plans to ever sell them) & shoot with them too apart from A1 with 200 600 mm
How ever I am no fan boy of any brand & judge each camera & lens by its pros & cons based based what it offers for wild life photography .Hence I never touched Z series & hoping Z8 will be a lighter version of Z9 to pair it with my 500 PF
Click to expand...
Why not judge based on the quality of the work that the photographer and camera can produce.
I take a lot of pictures, in fact I'll be stepping out of my house after writing this to take a pre-dawn hike to pond to do some late fall wildlife photography.
My work is displayed on the web a btleventhal.com, on instagram @BruceLeventhal, in Nature Photographer Magazine, and in advertisements. I use a variety of gear... from D3s to Z6IIs. Do you think that a photographer who prides themselves on the quality of work they produce would use gear that was not up to the task?
tFor me, I look at the work first, gear second, and then think... Hmm, I wonder if I can get there too?
Take a look at Brad Hill, Morten Hilmer, and Michelle Valberg... they , for some reason, sold their D5s, D850s, and D500's for Z6 & Z7 bodies.
cheers,
bruce
 
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BLev65 said:
...When thinking about AF, I am looking for a system that can track and maintain focus, the Z bodies can do this well. The big limit relates to the extra time it takes to lock on... this is where the Z9 will transition us to a new level... until I can afford one, I'll live with my limitations...
Click to expand...
And that's what it's all about regarding equipment. Knowing what we need for what/how we shoot and understanding what kit can provide that. The thing seen in many forum comments about equipment is the inability to see beyond one's own frame of reference. And unfortunately often no desire to do so.

Per your prior comments it's quite simple. If there is a photographer whose work I respect and who shoots similar subject matter then their kit obviously works for them. If it's not working for me it's time for introspection not a trip to the store.
 
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