BIF settings advice

[santiago]

Hi everybody,

Greeting from London, UK first of all!

I have read both of Steve's “Secrets” books which I have found truly outstanding, the best resource out there by far for the very keen amateur like myself.

After much study and testing, I am struggling to achieve a high percentage of keepers for BIF ("Birds in Flight") which is my main interest. I wonder whether I could ask you for expert help on the matter if you do not mind.

Here are the details of my situation:

1/ I shoot with a D850 and Nikon AF-S 300mm f/2.8G IF-ED VR

2/ I use my pointing dog to locate red grouse on moorland which means that the bird bursts into the air 20 meters away from me (often from a hidden point in the ground) and then gains speed very quickly flying away from me

3/ My main issue is acquiring fast enough the focus lock. I have tried Dynamic Area AF, Group AF and Auto Area AF and the norm is that I am usually not able to get a good focus lock while the bird is close, so it is only when it is further away (and hence the best shot is kind of missed) that I get the focus lock. Often it is hard to get the focus point on the bird but even when I manage that it seems to me it is a question of AF speed more than not tracking the subject properly

4/ In an ideal world I would like the camera to focus on whatever is closer as fast as possible. Theoretically that points in the direction of Dynamic Area AF with d153 or Auto Area AF (perhaps better as it seems to prioritise whatever is closest to the camera)? (I believe Group AF has too small a focus area for the very erratic and super fast take-off). The problem is that in practice it takes about a second 80% of the time to gain the focus lock and the bird is too far away by then.

So my questions would be:
1/ What is the combination of camera / lens that will focus fastest? Will the D850 power grip add any focus speed (I read extensively about this and the prevailing opinion seems to be that it does not).
2/ What settings would you recommned for my circumstances?
3/ Will the Focus Tracking With Lock-ON Custom Settings impact Auto Area AF, logically it seems to me to apply more to Dynamic AF as in Auto Area AF it is deciding the focus point to use pretty much on its own?

Thanking you very much in advance, best regards,
Santiago

 

[gbodave]

First off have you pulled back on the zoom to give you a wider view of the bird. If the bird is only 20 yards away, using the full length of the zoom can get you too close so you can't clearly see and follow the movement.

For all situations regarding BIF my settings have always been the same.

Manual mode, AF-C, single point AF, spot metering, burst mode. F8, 1/1250 or 1/1600 (you might need something faster) auto ISO. Naturally, the key is to get the active focus point on the bird and keep it there as it moves. With regard to your somewhat unexpected explosion of action, forget focusing on the eye. With the right amount of DOF, focusing on the body of the bird would be fine.

Dynamic area and any form of tracking has always proved to be too erratic for me.

 

[KimM]

This would be tough circumstance to learn BIF. Practice more predictable, slower moving birds first. In my opinion, BIF is one of the most demanding types of photography so lots and lots of practice.

Your gear sounds perfect but on the shorter end for birds. You can easily add the 1.4 TC and not lose much in IQ or AF speed. I have the same gear and it is snappy. With the grip, you will move from 7 fps to 9 fps which offers more chances for better pose. And I have read that the EN-EL 18 battery you can use in the grip is more powerful and capable of quicker AF speed. This I am not sure is true. I do appreciate the all day performance of this battery and more fps with grip.

For BIF, I almost always use group because of it's characteristic of grabbing focus at the closest thing to the camera, the head usually. In your circumstance, you are left with a butt shot as the bird moves away from the dog unless you are able to grab the bird when it first jumps up. If it were me, I would focus on the dog (offering you some tracking practice) and hope that when the bird flushes, you are close and the camera can lock on the bird

Settings for BIF for me is 3200 to 4000 SS for smaller birds and a lot less with birds that glide more. Wide open at f2.8 and then float the ISO for the light you have. If it isn't good, I lower SS and hope for the best. Sometimes I use auto ISO but prefer manual if light is staying the same. Spot metering and group AF. Sometimes I will experiment with dynamic 9 or 25 if I am not doing well with group. With the Prairie Chickens that will jump straight up when in a battle, I have found experimenting with the AF group very helpful.

 

[santiago]

Thank you very much bbodave and KimM!

A few further comments:
- Single point AF is impossible to keep on the bird when it jumps... which is the best moment for the photo because it is the closest!
- The problem I am having with Group AF is that it focuses on the closest to the camera within the focus area which is quite small... so again same issue of keeping it on the bird. Perhaps Auto Area AF which I understand also prioritises closest to a lesser degree, but the contrast is often low (grouse look very much the same as the heather the live in here)
- I am going to investigate further the power grip, perhaps there is some marginal AF speed to be squeezed there

I guess a useful way to think about this would be... when you photograph something like this, what AF settings do you use? The restrictions, to summarise, are:
1/ you cannot pre-focus (you do not know where the bird is),
2/ the bird jumps very fast and erratic so it is very difficult to keep a narrow focus area on it,
3/ the bird moves very quickly away from you, so you need a focus lock as soon as you possibly can

 

[DripDryMcFleye]

If red grouse are as fast and small as the ruffed grouse (about pigeon size) we have in America I would expect your keeper rate to be very, very low. Based on my own BIF experiences, I would say your basic settings may be a little different than what I would use for the situation you describe. I nearly always use the small group AF setting and shoot around f 5.6 or even wider depending on the lens. Depth of field from a smaller aperture will help get a little more of the target in focus but also slows the auto focus system if the light is not bright. For a small, fast birds like a grouse I would choose shutter speeds above 1/2500 or faster. It's not going to matter much how well the camera focuses if the subject is going to be soft from motion blur. 20 yards seems close enough but the bird probably has another few yards on you by the time you can even react. It easier to get a distant target in the viewfinder but we usually strive for good close shots. It's all quite a balancing act. You've certainly chosen a difficult mission! BTW, in my bird hunting days I was very partial to setters.

 

[gbodave]

As you've seen from your experience of trying Group AF, when the camera selects what it thinks is the best focus point for the job, it can easily select an inappropriate one. All the other multi focus options have the same potential.

Auto area AF would be a complete no go for me because, again, responsibility for choosing the correct AF mode is handed to the camera. I don't know anyone who would choose that mode.

It's really down to continual practice which might be frustrating but the answer has to be that a relevant focus point must be on the bird every time the shutter is pressed. The only one I can trust completely is the one used within single point AF. It will focus where I place it.

 

[Rassie]

My 2c worth: If the camera racks focus (hunts) on the lens from closest to farthest in order to find something to focus on when the bird flushes you've already lost too much time. Try to pre-focus manually roughly at the distance you expect the bird to flush and set Group-AF. From then it's a crap-shoot and hope for the best. And then practice, practice, practice.

 

[santiago]

Most helpful advice DripDryMcFleye, thank you very much!

My first dog was a Laverack English Setter, we are talking more than twenty years ago! I have attached a picture of that dog and also of my current one, just in case it brings good memories hehe

It looks like a similar challenge to ruffed grouse (certainly same size)... so perhaps you are right that one has to accept the keeper rate to be very low! I always go for shutter speeds above 1/2500 for the same reasons as you. I might also need to improve my technique with Group AF as it does seem to be the one that gives more weight to the closest to the camera...

 

[santiago]

As you've seen from your experience of trying Group AF, when the camera selects what it thinks is the best focus point for the job, it can easily select an inappropriate one. All the other multi focus options have the same potential.

Auto area AF would be a complete no go for me because, again, responsibility for choosing the correct AF mode is handed to the camera. I don't know anyone who would choose that mode.

It's really down to continual practice which might be frustrating but the answer has to be that a relevant focus point must be on the bird every time the shutter is pressed. The only one I can trust completely is the one used within single point AF. It will focus where I place it.

Thank you again, very true but one focus point in this situation is really really tough... however the discipline of improving the focusing ability will for sure help

 

[santiago]

My 2c worth: If the camera racks focus (hunts) on the lens from closest to farthest in order to find something to focus on when the bird flushes you've already lost too much time. Try to pre-focus manually roughly at the distance you expect the bird to flush and set Group-AF. From then it's a crap-shoot and hope for the best. And then practice, practice, practice.

Very sound advice on both fronts (pre-focus plus Group AF), thank you very much Rassie

 

[DripDryMcFleye]

Most helpful advice DripDryMcFleye, thank you very much!

My first dog was a Laverack English Setter, we are talking more than twenty years ago! I have attached a picture of that dog and also of my current one, just in case it brings good memories hehe

It looks like a similar challenge to ruffed grouse (certainly same size)... so perhaps you are right that one has to accept the keeper rate to be very low! I always go for shutter speeds above 1/2500 for the same reasons as you. I might also need to improve my technique with Group AF as it does seem to be the one that gives more weight to the closest to the camera...

View attachment 17416
View attachment 17417

Lovely dogs! And yes, it does bring some good memories. Thanks for taking the time to share your dogs with me and the wife. She was always up for a day of grouse hunting. She's quite a good sport.

 

[Ralph]

Very sound advice on both fronts (pre-focus plus Group AF), thank you very much Rassie

I agree with Rassie. Use group autofocus and pre-focus. If you are shooting in a field situation where there are no other obstacles in your way, once you get the group focusing area on the bird it should lock fairly quickly as long as you keep it on the bird. If you still find the area too small experiment with dynamic autofocus(D25) or the smallest one your camera supports and see how that works. But I think Group is you best bet. Grouse are an extremely explosive bird as you have already stated and if you happen to succeed in getting anything decent please share. Good Luck.

 

[santiago]

I agree with Rassie. Use group autofocus and pre-focus. If you are shooting in a field situation where there are no other obstacles in your way, once you get the group focusing area on the bird it should lock fairly quickly as long as you keep it on the bird. If you still find the area too small experiment with dynamic autofocus(D25) or the smallest one your camera supports and see how that works. But I think Group is you best bet. Grouse are an extremely explosive bird as you have already stated and if you happen to succeed in getting anything decent please share. Good Luck.

Ralph, thank you very much indeed! I have some nice pictures both of red grouse and ptarmigan which I will try to post in the relevant section, they are very beautiful birds... Particularly the ptarmigan requires quite a bit of effort on the part of the photographer as they live among the rocks of the peaks quite far North (in Scotland)

 

[Deleted member 115]

We try not to disturb birds in such a manner in the U.S. Especially our threatened species like sage hens that are in great decline.

Audubon’s Guide to Ethical Bird Photography and Videography

Showing a sincere respect for birds and the places they need to thrive must come before getting that perfect photo or footage. Here’s how to capture bird photos and videos responsibly.

www.audubon.org

 

[santiago]

We try not to disturb birds in such a manner in the U.S. Especially our threatened species like sage hens that are in great decline.

Audubon’s Guide to Ethical Bird Photography and Videography

Showing a sincere respect for birds and the places they need to thrive must come before getting that perfect photo or footage. Here’s how to capture bird photos and videos responsibly.

www.audubon.org

None of these species are threatened and I believe it is important for people to see how beautiful they are... And we certainly are careful when they are breeding to leave them well alone

 

[Deleted member 115]

None of these species are threatened and I believe it is important for people to see how beautiful they are... And we certainly are careful when they are breeding to leave them well alone

No offense to you. I used to help train bird dogs and still photograph hunting dogs from time to time. I am not against hunting but I don't like the idea of more people out trashing the environment and harassing my birds year round with no clue about conservation. Sounds like you are responsible, as stated no offense intended

 

[joe43]

I use Back Button Focusing with the AF ON button. Try this to see if it helps.

I use ASF-C, Auto ISO, Aperture Priority, and fast frames per second. Dynamic area is usually set to d9. I can switch to Group Area by engaging it with a button assignment on the front of the camera that allows me to switch back and forth between d9 and Group Area as needed.

I would pre folcus the lens on the likely area where the bird might explode into view and maybe take the first burst without any more focusing adjustments than those already made. Aperture is set to f4 or f5.6 to expand the sharpness area if needed. Then engage AF with the AF ON button once bird has flushed.

 

[gaknott]

As Rassie noted above, try to pre-focus on an area you expect them to fly from. How close does your dog get to the birds before they flush? Maybe pre-focus on him. Also, on the D850 you can set your Pv button to toggle AF modes. I have back button focus with single point as default AF mode. When the bird start flying, get initial focus with single point, then press and hold Pv to switch to group AF. If focus acquired with single point initially, group will usually keep focus on the moving bird without jumping off to grass, trees, etc., so long as you keep the bird within the group AF points. Works well for me with a little practice. Get your technique down with more predictable subjects and it will be easier to adapt to the challenging ones.

 

[Karl]

Is there a more "scientific" name for the red grouse? I couldn't find it in Cornell's Birds of the World.
I believe from what I've seen and heard that the D850 is a very capable camera. I was having trouble with BIF so I dumped my Canon system for the Sony a7Riv and my keeper rate went from near zero to very acceptable... probably a good part of my problem with the Canon 5D4 and 400 DO was operator error. I'm not suggesting you dump your Nikon but it might be holding you back slightly... however, others have great success with it so probably the answer is practice, practice, and practice. With the a7Riv and Sony 200-600 I use one button to reset everything for BIF: manual, auto ISO, 1/3200, f/6.3, +2 EC (for dark bird against bright sky), and zone... and then prefocus (maybe on your dog).

 

[sinewsworn]

Try to practice with shorter glass on bigger birds. Gulls are a fav that tend to be ubiquitous. Try to predict as where they will be. Group AF works best. Try it!

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[gbodave]

I use Back Button Focusing with the AF ON button. Try this to see if it helps.

I use ASF-C, Auto ISO, Aperture Priority, and fast frames per second. Dynamic area is usually set to d9. I can switch to Group Area by engaging it with a button assignment on the front of the camera that allows me to switch back and forth between d9 and Group Area as needed.

I would pre folcus the lens on the likely area where the bird might explode into view and maybe take the first burst without any more focusing adjustments than those already made. Aperture is set to f4 or f5.6 to expand the sharpness area if needed. Then engage AF with the AF ON button once bird has flushed.

If you wanted a SS of say 1/2000 how do you achieve that in AP mode ?

 

[MYount]

If red grouse are as fast and small as the ruffed grouse (about pigeon size) we have in America I would expect your keeper rate to be very, very low. Based on my own BIF experiences, I would say your basic settings may be a little different than what I would use for the situation you describe. I nearly always use the small group AF setting and shoot around f 5.6 or even wider depending on the lens. Depth of field from a smaller aperture will help get a little more of the target in focus but also slows the auto focus system if the light is not bright. For a small, fast birds like a grouse I would choose shutter speeds above 1/2500 or faster. It's not going to matter much how well the camera focuses if the subject is going to be soft from motion blur. 20 yards seems close enough but the bird probably has another few yards on you by the time you can even react. It easier to get a distant target in the viewfinder but we usually strive for good close shots. It's all quite a balancing act. You've certainly chosen a difficult mission! BTW, in my bird hunting days I was very partial to setters.

The camera Auto focuses at the lens widest setting and stops down when you take the photo. So stopping down will affect the exposure but not the autofocus.

 

[MYount]

The camera Auto focuses at the lens widest setting and stops down when you take the photo. So stopping down will affect the exposure but not the autofocus.

And of course it will also affect the field.

 

[Nature Man]

BBF, Auto ISO, F8, SS 1600-2000, and most importantly, if you're not using this, you need a solid tripod with a gimbal head for quick acquisition and tracking of the bird. You'll find your keeper rate will improve greatly with this setup once you become accustomed to it. Good luck!

 

[Neil H.]

Shooting a camouflaged bird like that in flight against a background is almost impossible. I am a Nikon shooter with the D850 500pf combination and plan to stay that way. However most action photographers have switched to Sony in the last few years. The best action camera was the A9 ii but is now the A1 (very expensive). Even with that gear I think you might take a long time to get the shot you are after. Be sure to post it if you ever nail it!