Does the Z9 still have AF issues after firmware 3.01?

[Marco74]

In my small experience, I still obtain better AF results by switching off the subject recognition.
90° of the subject I usually photograph are not correctly recognized, neither the face nor the eyes.
In the case of BIF, I found that the size of the AF point must be larger than the subject or a little more. If the AF point is too bigger, it is easier than the focus point will lock on the more contrast or detailed subject, like a tree or rock behind the subject and not the subject.

 

[jdinny]

One of the best I've seen on this site.

Wow !!
Thank you so much

 

[Pat Cassity]

My response to the OP's question: the inability of the phase-detect autofocus to acquire initial focus AT ALL in some situations, such as small songbirds in trees. I often have to manually focus because the camera simply can't lock onto anything, and it has caused me to miss more shots than I can count. Admittedly, I haven't been out shooting birds as much since this latest firmware update but I haven't heard that that issue has been fixed. My understanding is it may be a hardware issue with the lack of vertical or cross-type AF points or something, so the camera is bad with horizontal lines. But I'm not the technical type.

Ben, I have had similar issues lately when shooting eagles in heir nest. Often the branches will be in front of their faces causing focus to occur on them instead of the eagles faces. Pinpoint focus usually takes care of that but I haven’t found a quick way to access AS-S and pinpoint without going through the menu. I have looked in Steve’s Ultimate Nikon z9 book for Wildlife Photography but that is the one focus mode that he doesn’t cover since he so rarely uses it for wildlife photography. Have you tried pinpoint for the type of shots you describe? Steve, if you are watching, do you have a suggestion for quickly accessing pinpoint focus when shooting in AF-C?

 

[JoelKlein]

His suggestion is custom box 1x1

 

[John Navitsky]

His suggestion is custom box 1x1

i have a 1x1 programmed on my lens buttons

 

[Ken Miracle]

My response to the OP's question: the inability of the phase-detect autofocus to acquire initial focus AT ALL in some situations, such as small songbirds in trees. I often have to manually focus because the camera simply can't lock onto anything, and it has caused me to miss more shots than I can count. Admittedly, I haven't been out shooting birds as much since this latest firmware update but I haven't heard that that issue has been fixed. My understanding is it may be a hardware issue with the lack of vertical or cross-type AF points or something, so the camera is bad with horizontal lines. But I'm not the technical type.

I photograph birds of all sizes for ID 90% of the time and mutlitpl times per week.

You do not say what AF Area mode etc. you are using so hard to tell what is going on. As I did with D6, D850 and D500 there are times when shooting small birds deep in the bushes or trees through small openings that I have to use manual to acquire initial focus and then usually let single point AF Area mode or with the Z9 3D AF Area mode take over.

I shoot sitting birds on branches all of the time. Biggest thing to remember is that the bird needs to be exposed properly for the best focus on backlighted subjects especially. I make sure they are light enough, shutter speed and or EV adjusted, and as big in the view finder as I can get, if needed I have a one button switch to DX mode set.

Now after FW 3.01 it is better than ever. Today for sitting birds like Red-winged Blackbirds blowing in the wind on the top of willows, Eagles, Ducks and Ravens in flight etc. mostly by pressing and holding buttons I have programmed for 3D AF Area Mode + AFon and Auto Focus AF Area Mode + AFon and the Z9 locked on quickly.

 

[Ken Miracle]

Ben, I have had similar issues lately when shooting eagles in heir nest. Often the branches will be in front of their faces causing focus to occur on them instead of the eagles faces. Pinpoint focus usually takes care of that but I haven’t found a quick way to access AS-S and pinpoint without going through the menu. I have looked in Steve’s Ultimate Nikon z9 book for Wildlife Photography but that is the one focus mode that he doesn’t cover since he so rarely uses it for wildlife photography. Have you tried pinpoint for the type of shots you describe? Steve, if you are watching, do you have a suggestion for quickly accessing pinpoint focus when shooting in AF-C?

In that type of situation I find it fastest to use single point AF area mode + AFon that I have programmed on FN1 with an assist with manual focus if needed and then letting single point AF area mode take over or in many cases 3D af area mode will lock on the birds eye or head depending on the distance and I let that take over.

 

[Ken Miracle]

In my small experience, I still obtain better AF results by switching off the subject recognition.
90° of the subject I usually photograph are not correctly recognized, neither the face nor the eyes.
In the case of BIF, I found that the size of the AF point must be larger than the subject or a little more. If the AF point is too bigger, it is easier than the focus point will lock on the more contrast or detailed subject, like a tree or rock behind the subject and not the subject.

I photograph birds of all sizes for ID 90% of the time and multiple times per week. I have animal subject recognition turned on and well over 95 % of my subjects are recognized. I also occasionally shoot a dog, cat, mule deer or squirrel and it seems to recognize all of those also especially if it can see the eye or at least the face.

You do not say what AF Area mode etc. you are using so hard to tell what is going on.

I photograph sitting birds and BIF of all sizes and speeds. Biggest thing to remember is that the bird needs to be exposed properly for the best focus on backlighted subjects especially. I make sure they are light enough, shutter speed and or EV adjusted, and as big in the view finder as I can get, if needed I have a one button switch to DX mode set.

Now after FW 3.01 it is better than ever. Today for sitting birds like Red-winged Blackbirds blowing in the wind on the top of willows, Eagles, Ducks and Ravens in flight etc. mostly by pressing and holding buttons I have programmed for 3D AF Area Mode + AFon and Auto Focus AF Area Mode + AFon and the Z9 locked on quickly.

 

[Marco74]

I photograph birds of all sizes for ID 90% of the time and multiple times per week. I have animal subject recognition turned on and well over 95 % of my subjects are recognized. I also occasionally shoot a dog, cat, mule deer or squirrel and it seems to recognize all of those also especially if it can see the eye or at least the face.

You do not say what AF Area mode etc. you are using so hard to tell what is going on.

I photograph sitting birds and BIF of all sizes and speeds. Biggest thing to remember is that the bird needs to be exposed properly for the best focus on backlighted subjects especially. I make sure they are light enough, shutter speed and or EV adjusted, and as big in the view finder as I can get, if needed I have a one button switch to DX mode set.

Now after FW 3.01 it is better than ever. Today for sitting birds like Red-winged Blackbirds blowing in the wind on the top of willows, Eagles, Ducks and Ravens in flight etc. mostly by pressing and holding buttons I have programmed for 3D AF Area Mode + AFon and Auto Focus AF Area Mode + AFon and the Z9 locked on quickly.

From my side, with chamois and ibex, eye recognition does not work. The head is only in certain positions.
With partridges, eye recognition only works at very close range as well as the head.
For now, the Bearded Vulture has always passed too far to hope for its recognition, then it is a difficult subject to photograph because its appearances are too sporadic to risk.
Steve says that when subject recognition isn't constant it's best to turn it off. In my case, it is better to be OFF.

 

[NorthernFocus]

My response to the OP's question: the inability of the phase-detect autofocus to acquire initial focus AT ALL in some situations, such as small songbirds in trees. I often have to manually focus because the camera simply can't lock onto anything, and it has caused me to miss more shots than I can count. Admittedly, I haven't been out shooting birds as much since this latest firmware update but I haven't heard that that issue has been fixed. My understanding is it may be a hardware issue with the lack of vertical or cross-type AF points or something, so the camera is bad with horizontal lines. But I'm not the technical type.

What focus area/mode are you using? Since the first firmware update I can't recall ever having the camera fail to focus when using single point. If you're trying to always rely on subject detection and 3d, auto area, or a large wide area box then, sure there are times it can't figure out what the subject is. Hopefully they fix that in the future with an implant chip option so the camera can read our minds

Ben, I have had similar issues lately when shooting eagles in heir nest. Often the branches will be in front of their faces causing focus to occur on them instead of the eagles faces. Pinpoint focus usually takes care of that but I haven’t found a quick way to access AS-S and pinpoint without going through the menu. I have looked in Steve’s Ultimate Nikon z9 book for Wildlife Photography but that is the one focus mode that he doesn’t cover since he so rarely uses it for wildlife photography. Have you tried pinpoint for the type of shots you describe? Steve, if you are watching, do you have a suggestion for quickly accessing pinpoint focus when shooting in AF-C?

No need to switch to pinpoint. Single point with or without subject detection will do the same thing. But most times I find if the subject is reasonably large in the frame and the eye is visible even in wide area with subject detection the camera will see through brush and grab the subject. Really quite amazing. As @Steve points out in his books understanding how the camera "thinks" and knowing which mode to use goes a long way. That's one way MILC has proven to be harder than DSLR to use but it also reveals/releases the AF magic.

 

[jdinny]

I use single point on the shutter button, then hand off to either C1 on the back button, or 3D on the center button of the joystick, the two latter on subject/animal detection.
Seems to be working for me.
1/800, don't know why the forum keeps changing the shutter speed. Is it something I'm doing?
I downsized it with FastStone resizer

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

 

[Ben C]

I’ve generally been using auto area, a custom area (tried large and small) or 3D. I don’t know that I have tried single point as I don’t have that programmed to a button and switching manually often takes too long. I’ll confess though, I haven’t done much small bird photography in the last several months as winter on the Texas coast is not warbler season and, frankly, work has been super busy so I haven’t had much time to go shooting on the weekends. So I haven’t shot a ton with the latest firmware and maybe when the spring migration starts and I’m out more frequently I’ll find that it has improved. I will also give some of the suggestions in this thread a try - they are certainly appreciated. That said, I am pretty confident I have not been doing anything “wrong.” Steve confirmed in a response to a thread about this issue last year that it was a known issue with PDAF in mirrorless cameras because of the AF point design. Maybe the latest firmware has mitigated the issue, but it is a real issue.

I actually have an OM-1 system on the way (should arrive today) which I plan to use as a lightweight rig for travel and underwater. Olympus says that all 1,053 focus points on that camera are cross-quad-pixel type, whereas I believe only a small percentage are on the Z9. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. I definitely plan to do some comparisons between the two cameras to see if I experience similar issues with the OM-1, and how the two AF systems compare generally.

 

[Anjin San]

Saw a note on Dan Carr’s site today that said even with 3.01 it’s a complete Fail with white birds against white-ish or light backgrounds…and in my experience ar Venice Rookery the other morning it had trouble with great egrets against the smy. He uses Wide Large on BBAF and 3D with subject on Fn2 (guess that would be FBAF). Non white birds against sky or white against folianpge work better for me, he stated that his A1 and whatever Canon he shoots grabbed right on in the same situations with the same birds. Steve OTOH and Hudson Henry have differing opinions. All that is anecdotal though.

 

[Viathelens]

The Z9 is a complex camera with way too many options to choose from, which I think can end up being confusing. I try to keep it simple. I also believe that this camera can out-think and out-perform most of us. No matter how good a camera is, the person using it needs to be somewhat better, at least that's what I've found. I, like most of us, am still learning what the camera can and cannot do (I really wish it could clean windows!). Having said all this, this week I shot at a couple of wildlife refuges and used, 90% of the time, the auto-auto-focus as I have not used it much in the past. I always have tracking on, no matter the other settings. I got a nice shot of an egret in flight against the plain gray (a bit overcast) sky and a nice shot of a moving small bird, a Black Phoebe ( I did have to follow it for a bit and shoot away). I think the camera is working pretty good to catch focus and hold it, but I do work the subject and the settings a bit. I've found I have to move the camera and let it refocus sometimes, sometimes it does miss the subject against brush but so does my D850. It is a camera with a long, slow learning curve. I was pleasantly surprised by how good the auto-auto-focus did work.

 

[Strodav]

I shoot a lot of water birds like Egrets, Herons, Bitterns, Coots, Ibis, ... Like others have posted, I can't get animal eye tracking to lock on birds like this, even if there is good contrast. Humans and dogs, no real problems, but birds with long pointed beaks, - forget it. If I'm lucky, the AF system will see the neck or body, which usually results in a sharp image. I've found I am better off turning off eye tracking and resorting to single point AF, just like with my D850 or D500. Now, for headshots, i.e., just the birds head fills the frame, then most of the time, AF will find the eye, but birds with small heads and big bodies, it just doesn't lock.

 

[Ken Miracle]

I shoot a lot of water birds like Egrets, Herons, Bitterns, Coots, Ibis, ... Like others have posted, I can't get animal eye tracking to lock on birds like this, even if there is good contrast Humans and dogs, no real problems, but birds with long pointed beaks, - forget it. If I'm lucky, the AF system will see the neck or body, which usually results in a sharp image. I've found I am better off turning off eye tracking and resorting to single point AF, just like with my D850 or D500. Now, for headshots, i.e., just the birds head fills the frame, then most of the time, AF will find the eye, but birds with small heads and big bodies, it just doesn't lock.

Since there is not an eye tracking setting for the Z9 I am assuming you mean subject detection set to animal and AF-C and and AF Area Mode that that can use subject detection and is an AF tracking mode.

I started using the Z9 with out subject detection turned on and uses primarily single point, or dynamic area medium and later a wide area custom 1 and 2 set to various sizes. Same as I did with D6, D850 and D500 (except I had group as another favorite option with those).

With FW 2.0 I started using subject detection and it worked better than I expected it to. Then with FW 3.0 and FW 3.01 and my increasing familiarity with Z9 thanks to experience @Steve, this forum and nikonians I have not used my single button toggle set up I have to turn subject detection off since FW 3.01 came out and only use single point (which does not use subject detection) when birds inside a bush etc..

I shoot a wide range of birds sitting, wading, swimming and flying including Great Blue Herons, Coots and a wide range of sitting, swimming and flying waterfowl, raptors, small birds from hummingbirds to Belted Kingfishers. Especially with FW 3.01 I have a high rate of subject detection succes. Distance and focal length of lens, exposure and FX or DX mode all have an impact. And the subject detection system progresses from body, to head to eye. Depending on the situation, distance, exposure etc. this progression is not always even noticed.

With subject detection on and set to animal. I use wide area custom 1 at 5x3 on half press of shutter and hand off to 3d+AFon on AF/ON button or Auto Area AF + AFon on FN 2 button. An now with FW 3.01 I go directly to 3D+AFon or Auto Area AF + AF On more often than not.

 

[fcotterill]

What focus area/mode are you using? Since the first firmware update I can't recall ever having the camera fail to focus when using single point. If you're trying to always rely on subject detection and 3d, auto area, or a large wide area box then, sure there are times it can't figure out what the subject is. Hopefully they fix that in the future with an implant chip option so the camera can read our minds

I think it's in @Steve 's first AF book where he noted single point mode is the most commonly utilised AF mode.

The camera engineers developed the different modes of wider search area/coverage primarily to solve focusing challenges requested by Pro sports photographers. AFP, for example, initiated the Custom Area modes in the 2 latest flagship Nikon ILCs. In this case the D6 and Z9.

It's interesting how the role of single point in many situations is being overtaken by AI (aka Deep Learning) modes exemplified in 3D in flagship MILCs. Again the precursors of these were also designed for Sports, notably 3D tracking in the D5. This mode in the D6 has reached a much higher level of reliability. It's close to the stickiness of the Z9, albeit with the caveats of the DSLR focus architecture.

No need to switch to pinpoint. Single point with or without subject detection will do the same thing. But most times I find if the subject is reasonably large in the frame and the eye is visible even in wide area with subject detection the camera will see through brush and grab the subject. Really quite amazing.

My experience too. Some months ago, I learned Custom Area 1*1 makes Single point mode redundant on the Z9.
It has the advantage of a tighter area of the Subject Recognition, which can be toggled Off to turn it into Single point basically. [Edited]

As @Steve points out in his books understanding how the camera "thinks" and knowing which mode to use goes a long way. That's one way MILC has proven to be harder than DSLR to use but it also reveals/releases the AF magic.

As best I can remember 7-8 years back, learning to use which AF mode(s) when effectively on my new D500 was challenging (compared to the D7200). Steve's books have been an huge help I suspect too many of us start off with trying too many of the Modes at once.... plus there's the Shooting Banks and now RSF etc al....

So it can take weeks in fact to perfect one's setup - and much more importantly learn when to change settings. Now compared to the current DSLRs, as we learn, the Z9 AF on trickier subjects can often need 3 or even more AF modes, including the SR On/Off toggle.

 

[Ken Miracle]

What focus area/mode are you using? Since the first firmware update I can't recall ever having the camera fail to focus when using single point. If you're trying to always rely on subject detection and 3d, auto area, or a large wide area box then, sure there are times it can't figure out what the subject is. Hopefully they fix that in the future with an implant chip option so the camera can read our minds


No need to switch to pinpoint. Single point with or without subject detection will do the same thing. But most times I find if the subject is reasonably large in the frame and the eye is visible even in wide area with subject detection the camera will see through brush and grab the subject. Really quite amazing. As @Steve points out in his books understanding how the camera "thinks" and knowing which mode to use goes a long way. That's one way MILC has proven to be harder than DSLR to use but it also reveals/releases the AF magic.

Subject detection is not available in Single Point AF which is one of the reasons I use it. When I want single point I frequently do not want subject detection.

 

[fastharper]

Compared to the Z6 and Z7, the Z9 is light years ahead. Perfect? No, but pretty good. I have fewer AF issues with the Z9 than I had with the D5. Example: once at an airshow, the D5 just would not focus on the jets. I had to switch to the D850, which would focus. Same lens...