Editing?

[Mr F Stop.]

Now I have posted a previous post about not using LR. I got plenty of suggestions of other editing programs I could use, so thanks for that. But that was not really what I was after or talking about. So I am hoping I can narrow down your answers if I can. Is it possible to get tuition on editing which is non specific to a program? The sort of thing I am wanting is for an expert to show me images and tell me what needs doing and why, to each to improve them. Which is the best order in which to do this? That kind of thing. After all if I don't know these things then I am just experimenting until I get an acceptable result, which is n't necessarily the best result. Thanks in advance.

 

[Hermann]

Now I have posted a previous post about not using LR. I got plenty of suggestions of other editing programs I could use, so thanks for that. But that was not really what I was after or talking about. So I am hoping I can narrow down your answers if I can. Is it possible to get tuition on editing which is non specific to a program?

I don't think that's possible. The differences between different programs are too large. In addition there is no one true way to edit an image, there are many different ways that may or may not work for you.

What I'd suggest is getting some program, take a few images and try editing them so YOU like them. Make sure your monitor is calibrated so that these images don't just look good on your monitor. Stick to the same program until you know it well, switching programs all the time doesn't make sense. If you use a reasonably modern computer I'd suggest trying Nikon NX-D for a start. It has - like most software - a bit of a steep learning curve, but fooling around with it can be a lot of fun. Learning by doing at its best. If you use an old computer and shoot only JPGs, you might want to try something like Photofiltre.

 

[Thern]

Is it possible to get tuition on editing which is non specific to a program?

The sort of thing I am wanting is for an expert to show me images and tell me what needs doing and why to each of them to improve them.

That’s what you partially get in the presentation forums.
You’ll see a general consensus (most of the times) on ‘flaws’.
So half of your problem is adressed there..
How to edit and correct those ‘flaws’ is something else, but it can be learned when following the right steps.
A good startingpoint is to take a programspecific course and learn the basics (Sort of a shortcut and the only really existing one)
First learn how to walk, from there things will be a bit more complicated but since you know the drill it will be easier to learn.

The other way to learn it is the hit and try method, works too but it may cost you a lot more time to master the software.

I’d recommend to start using ‘main-stream’ editing software because there are lots and lots of videos and tutorials outthere and take a course (online or in a classroom)

 

[Mr F Stop.]

I don't think that's possible. The differences between different programs are too large. In addition there is no one true way to edit an image, there are many different ways that may or may not work for you.

What I'd suggest is getting some program, take a few images and try editing them so YOU like them. Make sure your monitor is calibrated so that these images don't just look good on your monitor. Stick to the same program until you know it well, switching programs all the time doesn't make sense. If you use a reasonably modern computer I'd suggest trying Nikon NX-D for a start. It has - like most software - a bit of a steep learning curve, but fooling around with it can be a lot of fun. Learning by doing at its best. If you use an old computer and shoot only JPGs, you might want to try something like Photofiltre.

I hear you loud and clear, but surely this is putting the cart before the horse. I can and do edit my work, I think and others do that I am doing a good job. But how will I ever know if I am doing the best my editor will allow? For instance, I have found by trail and error that contrast, deepening, and sharpening all have a similar effect, so which do I do first? Which one is better to use? If I start my edit by cropping rather than various edits will my results be better or worse. I could could go on for hours. Learning how to use a program, which I have done, does n't mean I know how to edit an image does it? It means I can use the sliders and at some point say "that'll do" Surely one of you learned guys must be able to look at my image and say, Firstly that needs this then that and little of that. Ending with, that my man is the best you can do with that image because!

 

[Mr F Stop.]

That’s what you partially get in the presentation forums.
You’ll see a general consensus (most of the times) on ‘flaws’.
So half of your problem is adressed there..
How to edit and correct those ‘flaws’ is something else, but it can be learned when following the right steps.
A good startingpoint is to take a programspecific course and learn the basics (Sort of a shortcut and the only really existing one)
First learn how to walk, then how to run.
Once mastered the basics next things will be a bit more complicated but since you know the drill it will be easier to learn.

The other way to learn it is the hit and try method, works too but it may cost you a lot more time to master the software.

I’d recommend to start using ‘main-stream’ editing software because there are lots and lots of videos and tutorials outthere and take a course (online or in a classroom)

Thanks for your reply. As I have said above I can use the editing program I have. This how ever does not mean I can edit or should I say understand what I am doing. So I have done what you suggest and mastered the editor but very little transfers to LR. I would love to do an editing course on line but all of them seem to be program specific.

 

[ruley74]

I think from your question what you may be looking for is what the "nature photography critique" section is for. Do what you want to your image and post it in that section with questions on what you could do to improve that image. You could narrow down that question by saying excluding composition etc. This way you get non software specific responses, i.e. the image is underexposed, you could lighten the subject up a little, clone out that stick.... and so on.

 

[Ralph]

I think from your question what you may be looking for is what the "nature photography critique" section is for. Do what you want to your image and post it in that section with questions on what you could do to improve that image. You could narrow down that question by saying excluding composition etc. This way you get non software specific responses, i.e. the image is underexposed, you could lighten the subject up a little, clone out that stick.... and so on.

I think ruley74 has given you the best advice. That being said, many times the adjustments made can be purely subjective in nature. It can be obvious when a change in exposure or sharpness need to be done, but the level of each adjustment is a very subjective choice. The same can be said for cropping, color etc.. In the end, you have to like the image. So make your changes and see what this experienced group of photographers has to say about it. They won’t hold back. You may agree with them or not. In the end it’s you that has to feel comfortable with you changes.

 

[jeffnles1]

I hear you loud and clear, but surely this is putting the cart before the horse. I can and do edit my work, I think and others do that I am doing a good job. But how will I ever know if I am doing the best my editor will allow? For instance, I have found by trail and error that contrast, deepening, and sharpening all have a similar effect, so which do I do first? Which one is better to use? If I start my edit by cropping rather than various edits will my results be better or worse. I could could go on for hours. Learning how to use a program, which I have done, does n't mean I know how to edit an image does it? It means I can use the sliders and at some point say "that'll do" Surely one of you learned guys must be able to look at my image and say, Firstly that needs this then that and little of that. Ending with, that my man is the best you can do with that image because!

I hear ya. I've had much the same questions. Unfortunately I have not found a "generic" type of training and all the tutorials I've watched tell me a couple things: 1) there doesn't seem to be much of a "formula" as to what to do first, and 2) there is so much variation between applications that training on one is only loosely applicable to other applications.

For example, I use Affinity Photo to do most of my editing and Apple's Photos app on my iMac to do the light weight editing (cropping minor lighting adjustments, etc.). I also use Pixelmator Pro for some tasks.

Of the 3 I use, Affinity is the closest to PhotoShop as for what it can do. If I can find a video about what I want to do and it is PhotoShop I can usually figure out how to do it in Affinity. However, I've used Affinity for a couple years.

As for the order of things you mentioned, would one do sharpening before contrast or would one do color correction before noise reduction, does one do global changes or should one use masks and focus only on specific parts of the image? Those are all great questions and it would be great if there was some "generic" application independent discussion on these topics. I have not seen it yet and it would be most welcome.

Interesting discussion.

Jeff

 

[Mr F Stop.]

I think ruley74 has given you the best advice. That being said, many times the adjustments made can be purely subjective in nature. It can be obvious when a change in exposure or sharpness need to be done, but the level of each adjustment is a very subjective choice. The same can be said for cropping, color etc.. In the end, you have to like the image. So make your changes and see what this experienced group of photographers has to say about it. They won’t hold back. You may agree with them or not. In the end it’s you that has to feel comfortable with you changes.

Just posted my first image so standing by for the flack. I would add though that of course your right in saying everything is subjective and I fully understand that. But in my ignorance I could be making things worse editing in the wrong order. I have just watched a video about editing (LR obviously) and the guy said do several things before you crop? Right or wrong there has to be a difference.......?

 

[FB101]

You‘ve now officially entered the editing conundrum... there is no absolute truth and no absolute way to do it. The “best edit for one picture doesn’t exist.
find your style, find your way by trying what others recommend and figure out the right tools and balance for you. it can be fun if you don’t stress yourself over finding absolutes. I reprocess old images all the time, to get new looks, to try new looks but mostly because I am learning new techniques. My best editing tool is still a glass of red wine, takes the edge off and makes everything slightly blurry

 

[gbodave]

There is no right or wrong order that can be used as a blueprint for every photo. Different photos present different challenges and they need dealing with according to what those challenges are. I can tell you that if you did look up some of the greats with editing software like Ben Willmore, Dave Cross, Matt Kloskowski or Serge Ramelli.you would soon see that they don't have an identical approach but they all get there in the end. "There" being what they see as a pleasing result.

I've always followed the Ben Willmore method of editing which is to examine the image and decide what the most noticeable element is and if it needs fixing/helping, do that first. Then assess what the next most necessary task would be and so on. More recently, I've augmented that knowledge with a lot of Serge's approach.

Different types of photos have different editing needs. Landscapes would be handled differently than wildlife or cityscapes. Maybe not to a large degree but there are enough differences that means there isn't a "one size fits all approach".

Which tool to use first will largely remain a question of your choice in achieving the results you want. Ask 6 people here what their workflow is and yo'll likely get 6 different answers.

My way of doing things using Lightroom Classic is to change the aspect ratio first. I frequently use an aspect ratio of 10 X 8. It's my go to print size and it helps me concentrate on what I think are the most important elements of the image. I don't want to waste time on those areas that fall outside of the 10 X 8 area.

I always adjust shadows and highlights next . Usually, I then go for contrast adjustments aided by dehaze if necessary. I never sharpen but I always use the texture slider.

I always change the whites and blacks using the ALT key.

Vibrance I rarely touch. Saturation I never touch.

If you follow someone like Ben Willmore he doesn't just move the sliders and show you what the effect is he explains in detail why any of the sliders do what they do. That makes big difference.

Things like exposure, contrast clarity and dehaze don't really differ between editing programmes. Positive exposure brightens. Why would that be different in any of them. Contrast emphasises the brights and darks with one slider. Why shouldn't that be the same in all of them. Other adjusters can vary more. Things like local adjustments have much more finesse built into them and different engineers will have different ideas as to what can be done with their version but they are not massively different. It's more a question of emphasis.

I like to apply a light touch because I generally capture images not far removed from what I saw in reality at the scene. Others go bananas such that you sometimes feel you need sunglasses to view the. Believe it or not a lot of those images are well received in some quarters.

There you have it but the next person up will likely do things differently.

 

[Mr F Stop.]

There is no right or wrong order that can be used as a blueprint for every photo. Different photos present different challenges and they need dealing with according to what those challenges are. I can tell you that if you did look up some of the greats with editing software like Ben Willmore, Dave Cross, Matt Kloskowski or Serge Ramelli.you would soon see that they don't have an identical approach but they all get there in the end. "There" being what they see as a pleasing result.

I've always followed the Ben Willmore method of editing which is to examine the image and decide what the most noticeable element is and if it needs fixing/helping, do that first. Then assess what the next most necessary task would be and so on. More recently, I've augmented that knowledge with a lot of Serge's approach.

Different types of photos have different editing needs. Landscapes would be handled differently than wildlife or cityscapes. Maybe not to a large degree but there are enough differences that means there isn't a "one size fits all approach".

Which tool to use first will largely remain a question of your choice in achieving the results you want. Ask 6 people here what their workflow is and yo'll likely get 6 different answers.

My way of doing things using Lightroom Classic is to change the aspect ratio first. I frequently use an aspect ratio of 10 X 8. It's my go to print size and it helps me concentrate on what I think are the most important elements of the image. I don't want to waste time on those areas that fall outside of the 10 X 8 area.

I always adjust shadows and highlights next . Usually, I then go for contrast adjustments aided by dehaze if necessary. I never sharpen but I always use the texture slider.

I always change the whites and blacks using the ALT key.

Vibrance I rarely touch. Saturation I never touch.

If you follow someone like Ben Willmore he doesn't just move the sliders and show you what the effect is he explains in detail why any of the sliders do what they do. That makes big difference.

Things like exposure, contrast clarity and dehaze don't really differ between editing programmes. Positive exposure brightens. Why would that be different in any of them. Contrast emphasises the brights and darks with one slider. Why shouldn't that be the same in all of them. Other adjusters can vary more. Things like local adjustments have much more finesse built into them and different engineers will have different ideas as to what can be done with their version but they are not massively different. It's more a question of emphasis.

I like to apply a light touch because I generally capture images not far removed from what I saw in reality at the scene. Others go bananas such that you sometimes feel you need sunglasses to view the. Believe it or not a lot of those images are well received in some quarters.

There you have it but the next person up will likely do things differently.

Fan bloody tas tic. Thanks for your detailed reply. I am off you read about the photographers you mentioned. But just getting your take on work flow really helps. I have my own work flow but it was guess work. Thanks again.

 

[bleirer]

Lightroom doesn't care what order you do the edits. It has it's own internal logic to how the edits get written into the exported picture. Once you are in Photoshop, the order can matter in some cases, such as don't sharpen before noise reduction, to avoid sharpening noise.

 

[Hawkeshead]

Only bit I would add is to manage any noise at the earliest stage, process the image as necessary and sharpen, if necessary, last.

 

[Mr F Stop.]

Only bit I would add is to manage any noise at the earliest stage, process the image as necessary and sharpen, if necessary, last.

Well if anything your post proves my point. I have been sharpening first even before cropping. So thanks for putting me straight there. I always thought that in my editor the order of march must make some difference. Probably does not in LR you because because that is far more sophisticated.

 

[Warren D]

I think most of us have developed our own methods, based on our software of choice. I'm not sure if there is any one right way as each of us will have our own opinions. I learned Photoshop back in the 5.5 days (the real 5.5 not that later CS 5.5!) I learned by opening an image and playing with the adjustments one at a time and noticing what each did. Time consuming? Yes! But I learned what I need to do to get the image to look like I want it to. The techniques moved forward with time and I think whatever program you use, you'll learn the hows and whys by doing.
That said, my usual processing routine runs as follows: Open Nikon Capture NX-D and select my image. I'll make a few adjustments to exposure levels and/or WB as needed. I also do most of my noise reduction in Capture as I like how it handles the D500, D850 and D5/D6 files. I then open the converted tiff in PS and crop, followed by any other adjustments. Final steps are to re-size and then sharpen accordingly. Large images at high resolution can take more sharpening than smaller, low res ones. I normally just change the radius setting based on the dpi of the final image.

 

[i080424]

Latest Adobe Lightroom update enables nef to dng conversions for Z6II, probably the Z7II as well

 

[Harry.G]

Hi Mr F Stop .....

I feel your pain regarding lessons for Editing as I also thought about that not so long back because I was struggling (and still struggle all the time) with finding the right balance so I figured there must be somebody out there who could teach me how to do it properly , in all honesty though there really isn`t any need to become overwhelmed by the editing process, its just my (and I suspect your) lack of knowledge of any kind of editing software .... No one told me at the start when I decided to by a pretty decent camera (Nikon d500) that in order to produce some really nice photos im going to have to get to grips with editing them ..

So I approached it like this - firstly I looked on YouTube in and around the Landscape photographers and found guys like ,Mark Denny, Nigel Danson, Mads Peter Iverson etc etc the list goes on and on .... then I found that one of the guys in particular edited his photos in a way that appealed to me ie Nigel Danson ..so I watched how he edited his images and introduced some of his techniques into my own photos and so it began , I started to edit using very very basic things like Exposure, Highlights, Shadows, Sharpening and so on ... After a while I got excited because now i`m editing my own Raw files using some very basic sliders in Lightroom , after a while you will find your feet and do your editing in a way that suits you - example of this is > > I used to ""Always crop"" my images then start with whatever I thought would benefit the image next ... Now I dont bother cropping first , I will look and see whats needed "If anyihing" to make the photo better , almost always in any of my raw files there will be some degree of lifting the highlights followed by dropping the shadows OR quite the reverse > Drop the highlights slightly then lift the shadows etc etc -Its different for every photograph ..

things I learned quickly ""Saturation"" treat this slider with Caution as its all to easy to over do it and not realise it
" " ""Vibrance"" this too can lead you down the wrong path
" " ""Tone Curve"" you need very Very subtle changes as it change the look of your image Drastically

Things can get very messy very quickly as its all to easy to over cook it , also be careful with Sharpen and Noise reduction ,, I would normally used Noise reduction "Before" Sharpening

The safe sliders as I call them are >>>> Exposure, Highlights, Whites, Blacks, Shadows, ..

There is lots of advice from the more experienced guys on the forum who are very familiar with editing software

Hopefully this is of some help and maybe a kind of starting point for you however <<< DISCLAIMER >> Please take ALL of the above with a pinch of salt it is NOT the definitive answer - this is my Novice approach and what works for me on some of my images it is meant as a Guide only ...


These may also be of help to you in learning "how to edit" .. stick with the Lion video as it comes good at the end
Editing a Lion
Editing a Bird -from Start to Finish
Editing a Landscape
Editing wildlife

The final thing I`d like to add is , all of the editing (at least in Lightroom) is Non Destructive so if you do happen to over cook the editing process is easy to simply go back and start again..


Harry.G

 

[EricBowles]

I understand your frustration. Editing can be a challenge.

The first step is really to make a realistic assessment of the image and how you will or might handle it. Before you touch any software, be able to identify whether the image is worth editing, what you want to emphasize, the strengths, and the problems or challenges. The number one problem I see is photographers often don't have a clear vision.

The reason we talk about Lightroom Classic so much is that it is used by 70-80% of photographers. That means you can ask a question and get help, or find free or low cost instruction. You can probably find a video on YouTube to walk you through anything you want. The other big advantage of Lightroom is the edits are non-destructive. That means your original file is unchanged, and your edits are simply a series of instructions linked to the image in a database. You only have one file - editing versions are virtual copies. And your editing steps can be changed or modified at any time without harming the original. So unlike using a DNG or a TIFF, you only have one file - your original image.

There are multiple ways of achieving a result in Lightroom and many other programs. Lightroom does not care about the order of your steps - the software puts things in the right order automatically. Other programs may care a lot about the order of steps. Even in Lightroom, you can take steps that need to be overcome in later steps. For example, if you add contrast, it darkens shadows and brightens highlights. That's fine - unless you have blown highlights or dark shadows you are trying to fix. Likewise Texture, Contrast, Clarity and Sharpening can all be your enemies if applied on a global basis to an image made with a high ISO and containing noise that is a challenge.

The best set of tutorials I've seen on using Lightroom are from George Jardine. They are a little dated - developed for LR 5 and updated for LR 6 - but they still accurately cover 95% of what you need to be an expert. The Develop Module series of videos costs $29 and is worth every penny.
https://mulita.com/blog/develop-tutorials/

 

[Hawkeshead]

When first learning (mind you do we ever stop?), take time to revisit the original image as this can mitigate the likelihood of overdoing the editing. I fell into the trap of pushing the sliders too far because my eyes had got too familiar with the image which meant I lost subtlety. It’s easy to over sharpen, want too much detail and too much colour. Take time to see the impact of each element on others, e.g dehaze in contrast, highlight on shadows etc. Vibrancy and saturation, like clarity and detail all need gentle handling.

There are a lot of creative modes in presets which change the image into very different styles. Sone like presets, many don’t as they want to apply their own style. As has been mentioned by many, it’s all about what you want to achieve and what you lie. Try to avoid having a standard approach as pictures will need different approaches, sone it’s down on gmgighlights and up on shadows, some vice versa etc. Also many pictures need very little processing if any.

It’s what you like rather than what others like, tastes differ, some prefer natural images, some like more striking images (particularly in landscape). There are some common features which will help make a great image before we get to the processing such as filling the frame to reduce the amount of crop, getting the right composition and sharp focus (eyes in particular).

There is plenty of free software out there but at some stage yiu are likely to want to move to a paid product. Research the forum for the debate over preferred and recommended software and then having made a choice, you can discover and seek out more tailored advice.

 

[Mr F Stop.]

Hi Mr F Stop .....

I feel your pain regarding lessons for Editing as I also thought about that not so long back because I was struggling (and still struggle all the time) with finding the right balance so I figured there must be somebody out there who could teach me how to do it properly , in all honesty though there really isn`t any need to become overwhelmed by the editing process, its just my (and I suspect your) lack of knowledge of any kind of editing software .... No one told me at the start when I decided to by a pretty decent camera (Nikon d500) that in order to produce some really nice photos im going to have to get to grips with editing them ..

So I approached it like this - firstly I looked on YouTube in and around the Landscape photographers and found guys like ,Mark Denny, Nigel Danson, Mads Peter Iverson etc etc the list goes on and on .... then I found that one of the guys in particular edited his photos in a way that appealed to me ie Nigel Danson ..so I watched how he edited his images and introduced some of his techniques into my own photos and so it began , I started to edit using very very basic things like Exposure, Highlights, Shadows, Sharpening and so on ... After a while I got excited because now i`m editing my own Raw files using some very basic sliders in Lightroom , after a while you will find your feet and do your editing in a way that suits you - example of this is > > I used to ""Always crop"" my images then start with whatever I thought would benefit the image next ... Now I dont bother cropping first , I will look and see whats needed "If anyihing" to make the photo better , almost always in any of my raw files there will be some degree of lifting the highlights followed by dropping the shadows OR quite the reverse > Drop the highlights slightly then lift the shadows etc etc -Its different for every photograph ..

things I learned quickly ""Saturation"" treat this slider with Caution as its all to easy to over do it and not realise it
" " ""Vibrance"" this too can lead you down the wrong path
" " ""Tone Curve"" you need very Very subtle changes as it change the look of your image Drastically

Things can get very messy very quickly as its all to easy to over cook it , also be careful with Sharpen and Noise reduction ,, I would normally used Noise reduction "Before" Sharpening

The safe sliders as I call them are >>>> Exposure, Highlights, Whites, Blacks, Shadows, ..

There is lots of advice from the more experienced guys on the forum who are very familiar with editing software

Hopefully this is of some help and maybe a kind of starting point for you however <<< DISCLAIMER >> Please take ALL of the above with a pinch of salt it is NOT the definitive answer - this is my Novice approach and what works for me on some of my images it is meant as a Guide only ...


These may also be of help to you in learning "how to edit" .. stick with the Lion video as it comes good at the end
Editing a Lion
Editing a Bird -from Start to Finish
Editing a Landscape
Editing wildlife

The final thing I`d like to add is , all of the editing (at least in Lightroom) is Non Destructive so if you do happen to over cook the editing process is easy to simply go back and start again..


Harry.G

Thank you so much for your help. I have just been off to watch the videos you copied to me. I am not sure you understanding what I am asking for. I have no problem with editing my photos. At lease that is what I think. I like most other folk these days can get around an editor and learn which, regardless of what they call them, sliders work best. Or should I say which give me an acceptable result, not just in my opinion but also my viewers. But, this does n't mean I know what I am doing. Any fool given enough time will stumble on a good edit sooner or later. In fact all you have to do is shoot in j peg and Mr Nikon or Canon will do it all for you and according to some pro's these are better than any novice will manage in some complicated editor. I hear people saying all the time "Oh you must shoot in RAW" then when I quiz them it's obvious they know little about the basics of editing, but they think wrongly in my opinion that they can do better than Mr Nikon? One good tip I have taken up on is this. I shoot in Raw and Jpeg. When I feel the need to edit the raw file (not often) I use the jpeg as a yard stick. I have found doing this with a good out of camera shot that I can't better it in my editor with my skills. So back to my post. I get confused because some say there is no order to editing and others say there is. maybe it's like everything in life now where people get the App to solve there problems like Google translate, but never understand or learn a language, which I think is dangerous. Mechanics these day have no idea how or why different components are fitted to a car because they use diagnostic tools which give them code faults, which more often then not are wrong. So my wish/point is to be taught the the editing process from start to finish without referring to a program or program specific terms. I have lost count of the videos that start with, I am going to show my editing process only to show you how they use LR which if you don't have LR is a waste of time. Thanks again for you input.

 

[Harry.G]

@ Mr F Stop

I sort of get where you are coming from however I dont believe that there is a definite answer to your original question which was "Is it possible to get tuition on editing which is non specific to a programme"" .... It may be a better option to state which Editing software you are using at the moment and see if some of the guys on here are using the same programme and maybe they can help you better ..

Re - your reference to Lightroom .. you will probably find that a fair majority of guys on here use Lightroom and that is the only reason that I mentioned it is because its my software of choice Plus it just so happened that the guys in the Videos were also using the same programme .. there are so many programmes out there ie Exposure X6 ,Luminar 4, DxO PhotoLab 4, Affinity Photo 1.8 (these are among the "BEST" software programmes at a cost) ... and the list goes on and on and on ,, there are also Dozens of FREE software options available... But they all do the same job only in different ways irrespective of what they are called ..

Example - increasing the contrast by 5 percent and lifting the highlights by 15 percent in Luminar 4 or Affinity Photo is no different than doing the same in Exposure X6 OR Lightroom . Some of the programmes are a lot less time consuming to learn simply because they are set out in a more user friendly fashion .. Its also all about using your "own eyes" what looks good to you ? There also is NO editing process from start to finish .. it simply doesn`t work like that , its not a matter of saying - Take you image into the software suite , raise the contrast , sharpen a little, add a bit of saturation, de-noise, lens correction, and the Job is done , there is No exact process it all depends on what you feel you need/want to do with the photo that you are about to edit..

Another point would be that you already edit your photos as you take a reference from the jPeg and edit the Raw file in a similar fashion .. the editing process id different for every photo and for every person ,having said that there are certain processes that are probably better done in a certain order , for example its better to De-noise then Sharpen as doing it the other way round you are sharpening noise , so when do you actually De-noise in the editing process ? sometimes its the ""first thing"" I do as the photo that iv`e decided to edit was almost perfect out of the camera with the exception that it was a tad noisy .. On other occasions I might simply brighten the image using Exposure >Contrast > Shadows > De-noise > Sharpen "FINISH" ... what I have noticed in my workflow that more often than not I tend to Sharpen "Last" but NOT ALWAYS - so thats something you may want to do ..

My point in showing you the ""Lion Video"" was not to say its all about Lightroom but rather to show you His work flow some of which you may want to introduce into your own work flow but of course Using ""your editing software"" .. I liked how the guy worked with the image subtly brightening and sharpening to keep the lions face as crisp and sharp as possible BUT it was only at the end he put a radial filter over the face and Darkened the background a very neat thing to do I thought FINALLY he cropped the image .. So its possible you may want to take an image of your own be it a Fox ,Bird, Dog, Person or whatever and use his work flow on your image .. some people may crop their image the minute they have it in the editing programme some use that feature at or near the end ..
It would be a Fair Comment IMHO to say you would most like NOT use > De-haze 1st, Sharpen 2nd, De-noise 3rd,Vibrance 4th .... You would most likely use De-noise and Sharpen nearer the end of the editing process and it would also be fair to say you would most likely use Exposure, Shadows and Highlights etc in the early part of the process . where you start to add in other things like Vibrance ,Luminance etc and exactly how much of each effect you use totally depends on you because as you add one it ultimately affects the other it becomes a balancing process and personal taste comes into the equation - effectively there is No right and No wrong

You could also post a Photo of your own up here on the site and ask the members to edit it for you in their own way , I guarantee you`ll get 10 different photos However there will definitely be similarities and if you were to ask each person how they achieved their final image im certain they would tell you .. However if a crop is required one person may Crop first but equally one may crop last, having said all that With a fair degree of certainty i`d say if it were a darker image with lots of noise most would use the Exposure process first and De-noise > Sharpen near the end .. how each person would use all the tools in-between would be a different matter ...


Harry.G

 

[SandyW]

If I understand what you are really asking for, the simple answer is it doesn't exist. There are plenty of videos out there that detail workflow and ideas of what to look for in finished photos. It is up to you to adapt that information to whatever software you decide to use. It is also up to you to decide what type of "artistic" editing you may or may not want in your final photo. Look at photographs from the "masters". Previous posts have suggested people to follow. Decide what you like and then concentrate on creating something similarly pleasing to you. This takes experimentation and time. There is no one quick recipe, although some looks can be achieve through presets. On the other hand you still need to adjust the basic tone of your photo to get the best out of those presets.

When it comes to JPGs out of camera, remember they already have a profile baked into them. This profile is decided by you depending on how you set your camera (natural, vivid, standard, flat, etc.) The included camera profiles vary by camera. For those editing raw images, and depending on the software, we can change that profile in post. This is the advantage of the raw file. I know LR includes camera profiles and I'm sure others do too. The "vivid" profile selected in post would make the raw image look the same as the "vivid" profile applied to the jpg by the camera. When it comes to editing there is a deep rabbit hole of possibilities!

Something to also consider. Depending on how involved you want to get into post processing, there comes a time you have to consider investing in "better" equipment. As you discover more possibilities, processor power and RAM become an issue. When it comes to buy vs rent, I do not want to get into that argument! As much as I hate renting, I discovered I was spending the same if not more by upgrading my software as going with the CC option. Your mileage will vary. A lot can be achieved with less complex software, but it still takes experimentation and a lot of time.

 

[Mr F Stop.]

@ Mr F Stop

I sort of get where you are coming from however I dont believe that there is a definite answer to your original question which was "Is it possible to get tuition on editing which is non specific to a programme"" .... It may be a better option to state which Editing software you are using at the moment and see if some of the guys on here are using the same programme and maybe they can help you better ..

Re - your reference to Lightroom .. you will probably find that a fair majority of guys on here use Lightroom and that is the only reason that I mentioned it is because its my software of choice Plus it just so happened that the guys in the Videos were also using the same programme .. there are so many programmes out there ie Exposure X6 ,Luminar 4, DxO PhotoLab 4, Affinity Photo 1.8 (these are among the "BEST" software programmes at a cost) ... and the list goes on and on and on ,, there are also Dozens of FREE software options available... But they all do the same job only in different ways irrespective of what they are called ..

Example - increasing the contrast by 5 percent and lifting the highlights by 15 percent in Luminar 4 or Affinity Photo is no different than doing the same in Exposure X6 OR Lightroom . Some of the programmes are a lot less time consuming to learn simply because they are set out in a more user friendly fashion .. Its also all about using your "own eyes" what looks good to you ? There also is NO editing process from start to finish .. it simply doesn`t work like that , its not a matter of saying - Take you image into the software suite , raise the contrast , sharpen a little, add a bit of saturation, de-noise, lens correction, and the Job is done , there is No exact process it all depends on what you feel you need/want to do with the photo that you are about to edit..

Another point would be that you already edit your photos as you take a reference from the jPeg and edit the Raw file in a similar fashion .. the editing process id different for every photo and for every person ,having said that there are certain processes that are probably better done in a certain order , for example its better to De-noise then Sharpen as doing it the other way round you are sharpening noise , so when do you actually De-noise in the editing process ? sometimes its the ""first thing"" I do as the photo that iv`e decided to edit was almost perfect out of the camera with the exception that it was a tad noisy .. On other occasions I might simply brighten the image using Exposure >Contrast > Shadows > De-noise > Sharpen "FINISH" ... what I have noticed in my workflow that more often than not I tend to Sharpen "Last" but NOT ALWAYS - so thats something you may want to do ..

My point in showing you the ""Lion Video"" was not to say its all about Lightroom but rather to show you His work flow some of which you may want to introduce into your own work flow but of course Using ""your editing software"" .. I liked how the guy worked with the image subtly brightening and sharpening to keep the lions face as crisp and sharp as possible BUT it was only at the end he put a radial filter over the face and Darkened the background a very neat thing to do I thought FINALLY he cropped the image .. So its possible you may want to take an image of your own be it a Fox ,Bird, Dog, Person or whatever and use his work flow on your image .. some people may crop their image the minute they have it in the editing programme some use that feature at or near the end ..
It would be a Fair Comment IMHO to say you would most like NOT use > De-haze 1st, Sharpen 2nd, De-noise 3rd,Vibrance 4th .... You would most likely use De-noise and Sharpen nearer the end of the editing process and it would also be fair to say you would most likely use Exposure, Shadows and Highlights etc in the early part of the process . where you start to add in other things like Vibrance ,Luminance etc and exactly how much of each effect you use totally depends on you because as you add one it ultimately affects the other it becomes a balancing process and personal taste comes into the equation - effectively there is No right and No wrong

You could also post a Photo of your own up here on the site and ask the members to edit it for you in their own way , I guarantee you`ll get 10 different photos However there will definitely be similarities and if you were to ask each person how they achieved their final image im certain they would tell you .. However if a crop is required one person may Crop first but equally one may crop last, having said all that With a fair degree of certainty i`d say if it were a darker image with lots of noise most would use the Exposure process first and De-noise > Sharpen near the end .. how each person would use all the tools in-between would be a different matter ...


Harry.G

Well thanks again for taking the time to explain. Although at the start of my quest folk were saying "No there's no order of edit" It appears there is. It makes perfect sense now that you have explained to de noise then sharpen. So thanks again, all points note and will be acted on.

 

[kimball]

Well thanks again for taking the time to explain. Although at the start of my quest folk were saying "No there's no order of edit" It appears there is. It makes perfect sense now that you have explained to de noise then sharpen. So thanks again, all points note and will be acted on.

From a technical perspective the order in which you edit matters in some programs but not in others. For example in bitmap editors like Photoshop, you need to be very careful with the order in which you apply edits and whether they are applied as adjustment layers or whether you are actually directly changing pixel data. Meanwhile, in parametric editors like Lightroom, the order you apply the edits in doesn't matter from a technical perspective-- the ACR processing pipeline will always actually apply them in the optimum order, no matter what slider you adjusted first.

However from a creative & logical perspective, the order may still matter even in programs like Lightroom, if only because it makes sense to handle certain adjustments first. As a contrived example, if you have a significantly underexposed image it doesn't make sense to apply sharpening and noise reduction first, because you may not even be able to see the result. So in this example one would get the lightness of the image to their liking first before worrying about sharpening & NR. But with that said, even though there's a natural order to how most people edit, in parametric editors they can return to any adjustment at any time and refine it further, without worrying about getting out of order.