Excessive tagging and tracking?

[AlanB313]

Thank you, Eric and Alan.

You're welcome! I forgot to say that once or twice when a bander couldn't get a bird out quick enough, they just cut the net. They didn't mess around with the bird's health. The net then needs repair or replacement. Our chapter helps with that...

 

[EricBowles]

You're welcome! I forgot to say that once or twice when a bander couldn't get a bird out quick enough, they just cut the net. They didn't mess around with the bird's help. The net then needs repair or replacement. Our chapter helps with that...

I've seen the same thing - nets closed and birds cut out of the net as appropriate. They also take the nets down when there are too many birds - just to reduce the number to be handled.

It sounds like the standards are pretty consistent.

For what it's worth, they always need photos of volunteers and the activities associated with banding birds. Sometimes they get a rarity that needs a photo. Of course, owls are different and need special handling.

 

[AlanB313]

I've seen the same thing - nets closed and birds cut out of the net as appropriate. They also take the nets down when there are too many birds - just to reduce the number to be handled.

It sounds like the standards are pretty consistent.

For what it's worth, they always need photos of volunteers and the activities associated with banding birds. Sometimes they get a rarity that needs a photo. Of course, owls are different and need special handling.

We may be getting involved with a daytime banding project where I can probably photograph. With the owls, the biologists want the birds eyesight to be fully functional at release. They also try to clean parasites off the birds when they can.
I will say the owls are particularly cute.

 

[EricBowles]

We may be getting involved with a daytime banding project where I can probably photograph. With the owls, the biologists want the birds eyesight to be fully functional at release. They also try to clean parasites off the birds when they can.
I will say the owls are particularly cute.

That makes sense.

In my area we have barred owls perched on street lights. Apparently it's like hiding on a high branch with the sun at your back. They catch bugs as well as small mammals. We are in the city limits of Atlanta and have almost daily visits from the owl adults and juveniles.

 

[Ibrahim]

This thread started with the following:
"I understand and appreciate the benifit of tagging and tracking endangeted birds. I watched this flamingo for a long time today. Several times it tried to remove the tag and radio! For those who understand these devices please convince me that this is not excessive!"

I reacted because the initial posts were presenting a false impression of what the case is.

I could have pointed out that the thread was misrepresenting the situation. I didn't. Some of my posts were removed and I was warned.

It took a couple of minutes to find information on the net in regard to banding.

The first hand experience of some people posting subsequent to my being admonished is informative and interesting.

 

[raptor photo]

You can't take a photograph of a Condor without Signage!
View attachment 69648

I live near but still haven't gone down to pinnacles to see them because of this.

 

[Ibrahim]

My previous post has been altered because I was being rude and argumentative. I guess me and whoever '?' is have a different understanding of rude and argument.

I will stop posting and just look at the photos.

 

[Rassie]

Eric and AlanB313, thank you for the explanation of how the banding is done. Seems there's more and better oversight of the process than I thought.
I still have a few questions. Let's say the banders set up a net to catch a bunch of birds. Do they band and or tag every bird that they catch in the net? For example, they want to research a specific bird, let's say the Cedar Waxwing. How long is that net up there for, and do they then band every waxwing caught in the net or only some of them? What about the other species that find themselves caught up at the same time?

 

[AlanB313]

Hi Rassie, in our case, we have only caught western Screech owls along with the sawwhets. And a few bats.

They banded the Screech as well but there has only been one or two. If the Screech is recaptured, that data is then available to researchers studying them. There is a database where the capture is recorded.

If we do get a passerine program started, I'll report back. That will be a multi species project.

Of course, I'm answering as a volunteer, I'm not a biologist. I'm sure you will get a much better answer from a professional.
Hope this helps...Alan

 

[Mal Paso]

I live near but still haven't gone down to pinnacles to see them because of this.

It would be nice if the condor people kept it one radio per bird and no signage but the large numbers on both sides of the birds are part of their advertising. You can go to their site and find out the bird's name, age, sex and history. I've been to the Condor facility in San Diego and have an understanding of what it took to bring them back but geese, signs AND radios for Life? I try to be nice to them when they stop by and never mention the signs.

 

[EricBowles]

Eric and AlanB313, thank you for the explanation of how the banding is done. Seems there's more and better oversight of the process than I thought.
I still have a few questions. Let's say the banders set up a net to catch a bunch of birds. Do they band and or tag every bird that they catch in the net? For example, they want to research a specific bird, let's say the Cedar Waxwing. How long is that net up there for, and do they then band every waxwing caught in the net or only some of them? What about the other species that find themselves caught up at the same time?

In the case of the banding stations I've been involved with, they record and band every bird that is caught in the nets. That's true even where a specific species is most important when there are mixed flocks involved. Specific species are just a matter of luck. Flocking birds like cedar waxwings are not commonly caught at the low levels where nets are placed - and nets are not placed near high volume food sources. Owls are a different situation in that they are banded at night and the nets are specific to that sized bird.

In the case of the Cape May banding project for red knots, they band over a thousand birds in a single morning, but they must have 20-25 volunteers as part of the project and they band in a single location. The local efforts I've been involved with have 6-10 volunteers and 3-4 nets. The nets are monitored closely but not watched all the time. People work in specific roles based on their experience. If the morning is especially productive or the staffing is below what is needed for the nets, they have fewer nets or take down nets. Every bird is banded - even those that have been previously banded. I don't recall whether or not the existing band is removed. I know they have special tools to safely attach and remove bands. They also have bands that are specific to a banding location or banding station, so they know birds that have been previously banded that year or in prior years.

There is some debate over banding on endangered or threatened species. For example, why should a researcher be allowed to physically handle and band chicks in a nest when photographers are not allowed within 50 yards for fear of disturbing the birds? But on balance, the risk to the birds from banding is very low and any disruption is very limited.

For researchers, data gathered through the banding process is extremely important. For example, at Cape May they can quantify the amount of weight gained by birds feeding on horseshoe crab eggs - and the importance of that specific food source and location to survival of the species. That has led to increasing protection of horseshoe crabs in New Jersey.

 

[AlanB313]

The only thing I'd add is that in my experience, if a bird is recaptured, new bands are not added. The band is read and data recorded such as weight, condition, health, etc. Location of the original capture can be looked up and movements of the species better understood.

When I corresponded with the Florida researcher,, I think she said the bird I photographed had two colored bands so they could recognize the individual without recapture. That way they can observe its behavior. The color choices, the order of the bands and which leg gives them a lot of choice for I'd.

I think different agencies might use different bands so that could be a source for added bands as well.

I do know that the researchers we work with wouldn't band any bird they don't have on their license or permit.

 

[bleirer]

The only thing I'd add is that in my experience, if a bird is recaptured, new bands are not added. The band is read and data recorded such as weight, condition, health, etc. Location of the original capture can be looked up and movements of the species better understood.

When I corresponded with the Florida researcher,, I think she said the bird I photographed had two colored bands so they could recognize the individual without recapture. That way they can observe its behavior. The color choices, the order of the bands and which leg gives them a lot of choice for I'd.

I think different agencies might use different bands so that could be a source for added bands as well.

I do know that the researchers we work with wouldn't band any bird they don't have on their license or permit.

Who issues the permits? State agencies?

 

[ssheipel]

Watched a photographer's Youtube video recently from their trip to Svalbard; clips of an artcic fox running off kilter, head and neck at an odd angle; favouring the side on which hung, clearly uncomfortably, a radio collar. Nope, says me.

 

[aolander]

Who issues the permits? State agencies?

The Feds

Posted this earlier:

https://d9-wret.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/assets/palladium/production/s3fs-public/atoms/files/BBL_permit_application_form.pdf

 

[sportmaster]

Maybe those taggers should have to try it on themselves first.

 

[bleirer]

The Feds

Posted this earlier:

https://d9-wret.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/assets/palladium/production/s3fs-public/atoms/files/BBL_permit_application_form.pdf

Missed it. At least it's not some hobby club going rogue.

 

[splatbass]

Banding is a necessary evil. It does more good than harm IMO. Sure, I don't like to see bands in my photos, and a small percentage are injured, but that is not really important when the survival of a species is at stake. Condors were mentioned earlier. Let's not forget that they were extinct in the wild until they were reintroduced from captive bred birds. Tracking them is essential to their continued survival. And you can't photograph birds that are extinct.

 

[AlanB313]

Who issues the permits? State agencies?

In the US, you need both federal and state, I believe. https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/how-do-i-obtain-federal-bird-banding-permit. For state by state info, it might be found here: https://birdnet.org/info-for-ornithologists/permits/states/.
But like I said before, I'm just a volunteer that helps with a few specific projects.

 

[Icarus]

Who issues the permits? State agencies?

USFWS and individual state.

 

[frdjohns]

I assume I'll get flamed for this, but there is no way I can believe that netting and banding birds is anything less than cruel, barbaric behavior that causes a high level of stress to the birds, at least the ones that survive the process. I understand all the rationalizations about studying the birds. I understand the claims of needing to do it for science. At the end of the day small beautiful creatures are captured, frightened, and manacled for life in the hopes that someone else will capture the same bird somewhere else to read the band and apply additional cuffs to the bird's leg. Our arrogance leads us to believe that as long as we do it for what we deem to be a good purpose, it's justified.

There has to be a way for science to gain knowledge without destroying or torturing the creature being studied.

 

[IainD]

I assume I'll get flamed for this, but there is no way I can believe that netting and banding birds is anything less than cruel, barbaric behavior that causes a high level of stress to the birds, at least the ones that survive the process. I understand all the rationalizations about studying the birds. I understand the claims of needing to do it for science. At the end of the day small beautiful creatures are captured, frightened, and manacled for life in the hopes that someone else will capture the same bird somewhere else to read the band and apply additional cuffs to the bird's leg. Our arrogance leads us to believe that as long as we do it for what we deem to be a good purpose, it's justified.

There has to be a way for science to gain knowledge without destroying or torturing the creature being studied.

No flaming from me!

 

[Rassie]

There has to be a way for science to gain knowledge without destroying or torturing the creature being studied.

Amen to that. You look at one of the websites of the bird banding crowd in Canada (may even be a government website) and they proudly proclaim that they have been doing this for over 100 years. And in 100 years they have not bothered to figure out a better way of doing this.

 

[splatbass]

I assume I'll get flamed for this, but there is no way I can believe that netting and banding birds is anything less than cruel, barbaric behavior that causes a high level of stress to the birds, at least the ones that survive the process. I understand all the rationalizations about studying the birds. I understand the claims of needing to do it for science. At the end of the day small beautiful creatures are captured, frightened, and manacled for life in the hopes that someone else will capture the same bird somewhere else to read the band and apply additional cuffs to the bird's leg. Our arrogance leads us to believe that as long as we do it for what we deem to be a good purpose, it's justified.

There has to be a way for science to gain knowledge without destroying or torturing the creature being studied.

What if it is to save them from extinction? Would that be ok? Basically all of the banded birds we have here in Hawaii are endangered. What is better, temporarily stressed birds, or no birds?

 

[AlanB313]

First, I'd like to say that it's clear that we all share a deep concern for the welfare of the wildlife we love and photograph! This is the wonderful common thread to this discussion and it is much appreciated! I think we all share the same goal, which is that we want the birds (and other wildlife) to live high quality lives. And to thrive.

My limited experience with banding is that it is done humanely, carefully, gently with very few if any injuries, and there is an important demonstrated purpose that has oversight. That purpose is guided by conservation needs and science. My goal is to help that conservation.

There are significant benefits that I can think of. One local example is understanding where CA's endangered Tricolored Blackbirds breed, migrate to, and what kind of habitat they need. Studying them (for decades) has led to programs where farmers are paid to NOT cut fields where colonies are breeding, saving many, many 1000s of baby birds from being ground up in harvesters, a fate worse than the discomfort of banding. Banding played an important part in understanding how these iconic birds move around the state, and still does. https://ca.audubon.org/birds-0/tricolored-blackbird-0, and https://tricolor.ice.ucdavis.edu/research-and-monitoring

But I thoroughly understand people's concerns! Your concerns are very well intentioned and appreciated, I share them. Banding may not always be done in the way I have experienced, especially where there is less oversight. I for one feel that I need to trust the oversight process here in the US.

To me, the disturbance the birds experience is an unfortunate but necessary compromise in our collective efforts to help save wildlife. There are far greater threats such as wholesale habitat destruction that impact the wildlife we love. But the work must be done with consistent, humane standards.

I've been thinking about starting a thread asking how others might be using their photography to help protect what we all love. I know there are many professionals here, but also many amateurs (like me). I started to learn photography because I like the artistic side of it. But also because I wanted to learn and document the birds I'm observing in surveys and in citizen science (ebird and other venues). Also to document important endangered CA native plants so that their habitat can be protected https://www.calflora.org/. It would be fun to hear what others are working on. I hope that someday my photos will consistently reach the level I'm seeing from this forum's members.

So on a positive note, I'd like to acknowledge that people have a legitimate right to expect this work to be done ethically and humanely. The public expressing that concern IS part of the oversight. Birders, scientists and photographers all should try to do their work responsibly.

I may be a new member, but the empathy and concern for wildlife I've read in all these comments makes me positive I didn't make a mistake in joining this forum. Sorry about being long-winded...
and Thanks!
-- Alan