Excessive tagging and tracking?

[GregWCIL]

Thanks for the post Justin. Best of luck with your future career and studies. I have always been interested in birds and wildlife in a more general sense. I became a mining engineer and that allowed me to see more of the world. I became disillusioned with mining and ended up studying philosophy. As a scientist you might benefit from some reading of the philosophy of science. Not saying you should, it's up to you.
As a start I would suggest https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/scientific-method/
All the best Dr Bob Gilbody BSc BA BA Hons PhD [analytic ontology] CEng [nominated by The Institution of Mining Engineers, no longer financial]

I think there could be a far more sophisticated less invasive devices designed.
As usual unless it makes money its not going to get the tech investment.

I mean really our phones can be tracked globally, yes batteries and energy are another issue.

Don't know what the answer is other than innovation.

Only an opinion, but yes this device doesn't look great does it.

Research does cost money. May be some here opposed to hunting, but Pittman-Robertson wildlife restoration funds raised from hunters have funded $14 billion in wildlife research and conservation.
Perhaps if bird watchers and photographers had a tax (I know, hard to implement) funding would find new ways.
As it is, banding is the most common method for researching bird behaviors to make more informed decisions on efforts to help them.
I contribute to the Audubon Society. Hopefully other photographers do too.
Anyone know of other avenues to help?

 

[Mal Paso]

Poison 1080 had a serious impact, but so did loss of habitat and likely mainly lead in the carcasses they fed on. That is still a major problem. When an animal is shot
with lead, the lead disperses pretty far within that carcass. If you're interested, I think the Peregrine Fund has some pretty good info on it.

Myth! It's very rare with modern weapons for a bullet to be retained in the carcass. Most all shots are all the way through and there isn't enough hunting around here to account for the lead especially with mandated Copper Bullets. You can have your gun confiscated just for carrying lead bullets while hunting here.

Lead Paint is the cause and someone finally posted a picture of Condors chewing on an old Fire Lookout in the Pinnacles. Condors do damage to isolated homes around here so it wasn't surprising.

You can swallow metallic lead and it will go right through with very little retained in the body. Not so with the lead oxides that were used in Paint.

 

[Ken Miracle]

Research does cost money. May be some here opposed to hunting, but Pittman-Robertson wildlife restoration funds raised from hunters have funded $14 billion in wildlife research and conservation.
Perhaps if bird watchers and photographers had a tax (I know, hard to implement) funding would find new ways.
As it is, banding is the most common method for researching bird behaviors to make more informed decisions on efforts to help them.
I contribute to the Audubon Society. Hopefully other photographers do too.
Anyone know of other avenues to help?

I buy duck stamps every year, and also bought a hunting license and game bird permits in Idaho that helped fund habitat conservation, restoration and access here in Idaho for years even after I changed to hunting with a camera only. I also support with $ photography, grunt labor etc. a variety of conservation entities like The Nature Conservancy and Ducks Unlimited on national or global level and others more locally like our Golden Eagle Audubon Society, The Land Trust of the Treasure Valley, Idaho Rivers United, Boise River Enhancement Network etc.. Check around and find your local conservation entities besides the worth national/global ones.

 

[JustinGriggs]

Myth! It's very rare with modern weapons for a bullet to be retained in the carcass. Most all shots are all the way through and there isn't enough hunting around here to account for the lead especially with mandated Copper Bullets. You can have your gun confiscated just for carrying lead bullets while hunting here.

Lead Paint is the cause and someone finally posted a picture of Condors chewing on an old Fire Lookout in the Pinnacles. Condors do damage to isolated homes around here so it wasn't surprising.

You can swallow metallic lead and it will go right through with very little retained in the body. Not so with the lead oxides that were used in Paint.

While there was evidence of a small number of lead toxicity cases in conodors causes by paint, the vast majority of raptor mortality via lead is due to ammunition left behind in gut piles. I'm not sure where you're located, but only few states have outright banned lead ammo for hunting, while some more land management units such as NWRs have their own localized restrictions. The worldwide impacts of lead ammunition and tackle are well known and have been for years, "At present, in the majority of countries, the use of lead ammunition results in the following: (1) additional mortality of waterbirds and terrestrial species through lead poisoning following the ingestion of spent shot; (2) poisoning of raptors, including threatened species, through the ingestion of shot or bullet fragments in the flesh of prey; (3) long-term environmental contamination through the deposition of lead" (Fischer et al, 2006).

I've spoken to many hunters about lead ammunition and switching to copper and the number one reason I hear as to why they don't want to switch is that copper doesn't fragment upon impact like lead does - they desire for the bullets to not carry through the animal and instead stop in the body and fragment, causing a quicker kill. As an aside, as the push to ditch lead grows, ammunition manufactures are starting to produce full copper rounds that behave like lead to stop the overpenetration issue that solid copper slugs had. As to your point of metallic lead passing through the body, that is true in a sense, but the stomach acids do break down lead that accumlulates in the kidneys and other organs, and over the course of years builds up to fatal levels

I worked for a year in a raptor rehab. I've seen firsthand the devastating impacts of lead toxicity in Bald and Golden Eagles, the rounds of chelation therapy, the pain of losing animals that were too far gone. This is a topic I'm very passionate about, so my apologies if I come off argumentative, but I don't like seeing falsehoods spread about the impact of lead.



1. Fisher, I. J., D. J. Pain, and V. G. Thomas. 2006. A review of lead poisoning from ammunition sources in terrestrial birds. Biological Conservation 131:421–432.

 

[JustinGriggs]

Research does cost money. May be some here opposed to hunting, but Pittman-Robertson wildlife restoration funds raised from hunters have funded $14 billion in wildlife research and conservation.
Perhaps if bird watchers and photographers had a tax (I know, hard to implement) funding would find new ways.
As it is, banding is the most common method for researching bird behaviors to make more informed decisions on efforts to help them.
I contribute to the Audubon Society. Hopefully other photographers do too.
Anyone know of other avenues to help?

I buy duck stamps every year, and also bought a hunting license and game bird permits in Idaho that helped fund habitat conservation, restoration and access here in Idaho for years even after I changed to hunting with a camera only. I also support with $ photography, grunt labor etc. a variety of conservation entities like The Nature Conservancy and Ducks Unlimited on national or global level and others more locally like our Golden Eagle Audubon Society, The Land Trust of the Treasure Valley, Idaho Rivers United, Boise River Enhancement Network etc.. Check around and find your local conservation entities besides the worth national/global ones.

As Ken mentioned, duck stamps are great for habitat conservation. Non-profits are also great for helping fund research that isn't usually taken by state agencies. The unfortunate reality is that the vast majority of P-R funding goes to game animal research and management. Non-game programs (which cover the hundreds of thousands of species that aren't hunted) usually only receive a very small percentage of funding compared to game programs from state agencies funded under the P-R act, which leaves those researching and protecting these species fighting for scrap. Personally, I'd love to see an excise tax on general outdoor gear, the so-called "backpack tax," be implemented to explicitly fund non-game research and general environmental protection programs.

 

[Ibrahim]

As Ken mentioned, duck stamps are great for habitat conservation. Non-profits are also great for helping fund research that isn't usually taken by state agencies. The unfortunate reality is that the vast majority of P-R funding goes to game animal research and management. Non-game programs (which cover the hundreds of thousands of species that aren't hunted) usually only receive a very small percentage of funding compared to game programs from state agencies funded under the P-R act, which leaves those researching and protecting these species fighting for scrap. Personally, I'd love to see an excise tax on general outdoor gear, the so-called "backpack tax," be implemented to explicitly fund non-game research and general environmental protection programs.

You mention taxing. I would be interested in your thoughts on the effects that demilitarised zones have on wildlife. It seems to me that the success of these zones in relation to them being wildlife refuges is that people are not allowed entry to them. These zones are not established for the benefit of wildlife but they do benefit wildlife as a side effect.
I suppose my question is really this:
Should areas be set aside as National Parks that exclude people [ other than those researching the effects on the ecology ] ?

 

[GregWCIL]

You mention taxing. I would be interested in your thoughts on the effects that demilitarised zones have on wildlife. It seems to me that the success of these zones in relation to them being wildlife refuges is that people are not allowed entry to them. These zones are not established for the benefit of wildlife but they do benefit wildlife as a side effect.
I suppose my question is really this:
Should areas be set aside as National Parks that exclude people [ other than those researching the effects on the ecology ] ?

You mean like wildlife refuges? Obviously they already exist. I assume the human activities they allow have been determined to not threaten the species that use them.

 

[Mal Paso]

While there was evidence of a small number of lead toxicity cases in conodors causes by paint, the vast majority of raptor mortality via lead is due to ammunition left behind in gut piles. I'm not sure where you're located, but only few states have outright banned lead ammo for hunting, while some more land management units such as NWRs have their own localized restrictions. The worldwide impacts of lead ammunition and tackle are well known and have been for years, "At present, in the majority of countries, the use of lead ammunition results in the following: (1) additional mortality of waterbirds and terrestrial species through lead poisoning following the ingestion of spent shot; (2) poisoning of raptors, including threatened species, through the ingestion of shot or bullet fragments in the flesh of prey; (3) long-term environmental contamination through the deposition of lead" (Fischer et al, 2006).

I've spoken to many hunters about lead ammunition and switching to copper and the number one reason I hear as to why they don't want to switch is that copper doesn't fragment upon impact like lead does - they desire for the bullets to not carry through the animal and instead stop in the body and fragment, causing a quicker kill. As an aside, as the push to ditch lead grows, ammunition manufactures are starting to produce full copper rounds that behave like lead to stop the overpenetration issue that solid copper slugs had. As to your point of metallic lead passing through the body, that is true in a sense, but the stomach acids do break down lead that accumlulates in the kidneys and other organs, and over the course of years builds up to fatal levels

I worked for a year in a raptor rehab. I've seen firsthand the devastating impacts of lead toxicity in Bald and Golden Eagles, the rounds of chelation therapy, the pain of losing animals that were too far gone. This is a topic I'm very passionate about, so my apologies if I come off argumentative, but I don't like seeing falsehoods spread about the impact of lead.



1. Fisher, I. J., D. J. Pain, and V. G. Thomas. 2006. A review of lead poisoning from ammunition sources in terrestrial birds. Biological Conservation 131:421–432.

It sounds like you have several things mixed up. Hunters have resorted to fragmenting Copper bullets because Copper doesn't expand like softer lead which tends to stay together. The hunters I've met want to take the animal with the least suffering, so a quick kill, and copper has made it challenging. Copper is lighter than lead and completely changes the ballistics. A larger bullet is needed for the similar terminal performance. I do not hunt but have been a serious shooter for 16 years. Copper ammo has been the rule here for hunting rifles and Steel Shot for waterfowl for most of that time. F&W is ever present in trucks with an almost invisible logo on the door, they are the only agency that doesn't need a warrant.

There hasn't been a significant amount of lead ammo used here (Los Padres NF) in years yet the Condor's lead levels are up. It's Lead Paint! There are people who want it to be bullets causing the problem but that argument isn't viable now.

 

[Ken Miracle]

It sounds like you have several things mixed up. Hunters have resorted to fragmenting Copper bullets because Copper doesn't expand like softer lead which tends to stay together. The hunters I've met want to take the animal with the least suffering, so a quick kill, and copper has made it challenging. Copper is lighter than lead and completely changes the ballistics. A larger bullet is needed for the similar terminal performance. I do not hunt but have been a serious shooter for 16 years. Copper ammo has been the rule here for hunting rifles and Steel Shot for waterfowl for most of that time. F&W is ever present in trucks with an almost invisible logo on the door, they are the only agency that doesn't need a warrant.

There hasn't been a significant amount of lead ammo used here (Los Padres NF) in years yet the Condor's lead levels are up. It's Lead Paint! There are people who want it to be bullets causing the problem but that argument isn't viable now.

I was a hunter for many years. I cleaned deer, elk and pronghorn that shot took with lead. And I always found shed lead particles scattered along the would channel and especially if I impacted bone. The least was a pass through on pronghorns of smaller deer.

I have also seen the xrays of carcases and the resultus of autopsies and there was significant amounts of small lead particles that could be ingested by a critter consuming the carcass.

I do get the debate over lead vs other substances for shot and bullets. I quite hunting waterfowl for a while when lead was banned since I had fixed choke shotguns that i did not want to shoot steel through. I was also no impressed with the increase in wounded waterfowl I was seeing with some trying to shoot waterfowl with early steel shot at the same distances they had with lead. I eventually bought a dedicated waterfowl gun with changeable chokes and when rounds came out like hevi-shot that were heavier and more leathal than lead I switched to those for the remainder of my waterfowl hunting years.

I had stopped hunting big game well before Barnes and other brought out copper based bullets so never used them myself. I have hunting friends that love the Barnes copper rounds and others who do not like it at all. If a bullet does not expand and make a larger wound channel and expend a lot of energy into the animal then it can lead to slower kills. However I have witnessed more slow kills and wounded animals from poor makmanship or flat out bad luck such as a stationary animal taking off just as the hunter is at the last stage of squeezing of the shot.

I am not a toxicologist, biologist etc. but the Condor and raptor pros who are here at the Peregrine fund in Boise are very good at what they do and have spent a lot of time on this issue and they have no doubt that lead is ingested by condors and other raptors from carcasses taken with lead and have become ill and some died because of it. They say that there could be other sources of lead in the Condors habitat but that there has not been much found that has been directly traced to have been ingested by Condors and other raptors that have ingested it. The most recent research has been in Arizona and Utah not California. I have not read anything from the fund researchers related to lead paint specifically one way or the other. But ultra fine lead particles are being found in carcasses the Condors feed on and in the digestive tract of Condors.

A qoute from this article linked below from March of 2023. “While we were shooting video, what had started as a small local issue exploded into a national political debate,” Podolsky said. “We hope that this film will allow hunters to get the credit they deserve for helping protect one of the world’s most endangered bird species.”

New documentary focuses on link between California Condors and lead poisoning – what’s being done to recover this endangered species | The Peregrine Fund

peregrinefund.org

 

[Ibrahim]

You mean like wildlife refuges? Obviously they already exist. I assume the human activities they allow have been determined to not threaten the species that use them.

Sorry Greg I'm confused. I am a simple minded person and unfortunately my simplicity is often taken as being either rude or argumentative. I suppose I am rude and argumentative compared to the polite enlightened cultural norms of the USA. I guess [ assume ] I have been in Australia too long not to be. I realise that the USA and Australia are both English speaking nations and as W.S. Churchill famously stated:

"The Harvard Commission on English Language Studies is distinguished both for its research and its practical work, particularly in introducing the use of Basic English in Latin America; and this Commission, your Commission, is now, I am told, working with secondary schools in Boston on the use of Basic English in teaching the main language to American children and in teaching it to foreigners preparing for citizenship.

Gentlemen, I make you my compliments. I do not wish to exaggerate, but you are the head-stream of what might well be a mighty fertilising and health-giving river. It would certainly be a grand convenience for us all to be able to move freely about the world – as we shall be able to do more freely than ever before as the science of the world develops – be able to move freely about the world, and be able to find everywhere a medium, albeit primitive, of intercourse and understanding. Might it not also be an advantage to many races, and an aid to the building-up of our new structure for preserving peace?"

September 6, 1943. Harvard​

The Gift of a Common Tongue

September 6, 1943. Harvard. By Winston S. Churchill INTRODUCTION After the Quebec conference in 1943, Churchill relates in Closing the Ring, “the President was very anxious for me to keep a longstanding appointment and receive an honorary degree at Harvard. It was to be an occasion for a public...

winstonchurchill.org

Apologies, took a stroll along a tangent there.

I found the following on the internet [ "......as we shall be able to do more freely than ever before as the science of the world develops...." ]:

https://www.fws.gov/story/beginners...refuge is,and future generations of Americans.

This is an excellent web site that explains the role that National Wildlife Refuges play in American society.

If I might be so bold I would point out that American citizens are allowed to fish, hunt and photograph in these areas subject to conditions laid down by 'laws'. There are even armed ladies to make sure all goes smoothly [ please see 'Laws and Regulations' on the previously provided web site address ]

Returning to my original post to which you replied:

'demilitarized zones' A DMZ or demilitarized zone is a perimeter network that protects and adds an extra layer of security to an organization's internal local-area network from untrusted traffic.

I assume my understanding as stated in my original post "These zones are not established for the benefit of wildlife but they do benefit wildlife as a side effect." is correct.

I was in my original post requesting the thoughts of Justin in relation to the ecology of an area void of [ effectively ] human activity.


All the best Ibrahim

 

[Icarus]

I rehabbed raptors for many years. People would donate carcasses or frozen game (deer, elk, antelope). I lost two Golden Eagles to lead poisoning before realizing it was important to xray donated game meat to make sure it didn't contain lead fragments. A surprising amount did.

 

[frdjohns]

While there was evidence of a small number of lead toxicity cases in conodors causes by paint, the vast majority of raptor mortality via lead is due to ammunition left behind in gut piles. I'm not sure where you're located, but only few states have outright banned lead ammo for hunting, while some more land management units such as NWRs have their own localized restrictions. The worldwide impacts of lead ammunition and tackle are well known and have been for years, "At present, in the majority of countries, the use of lead ammunition results in the following: (1) additional mortality of waterbirds and terrestrial species through lead poisoning following the ingestion of spent shot; (2) poisoning of raptors, including threatened species, through the ingestion of shot or bullet fragments in the flesh of prey; (3) long-term environmental contamination through the deposition of lead" (Fischer et al, 2006).

I've spoken to many hunters about lead ammunition and switching to copper and the number one reason I hear as to why they don't want to switch is that copper doesn't fragment upon impact like lead does - they desire for the bullets to not carry through the animal and instead stop in the body and fragment, causing a quicker kill. As an aside, as the push to ditch lead grows, ammunition manufactures are starting to produce full copper rounds that behave like lead to stop the overpenetration issue that solid copper slugs had. As to your point of metallic lead passing through the body, that is true in a sense, but the stomach acids do break down lead that accumlulates in the kidneys and other organs, and over the course of years builds up to fatal levels

I worked for a year in a raptor rehab. I've seen firsthand the devastating impacts of lead toxicity in Bald and Golden Eagles, the rounds of chelation therapy, the pain of losing animals that were too far gone. This is a topic I'm very passionate about, so my apologies if I come off argumentative, but I don't like seeing falsehoods spread about the impact of lead.



1. Fisher, I. J., D. J. Pain, and V. G. Thomas. 2006. A review of lead poisoning from ammunition sources in terrestrial birds. Biological Conservation 131:421–432.

I took the time to look up and read the paper referenced above by Fisher, Pain and Thomas. It is not hard to find. I was a bit surprised to see that in the introduction it states:

"Most cases of poisoning occur following exposure to very elevated lead concentrations, such as may be found in the vicinity of mines, waste dumps, and industrial plants (Blus et al., 977; Custer and Mulhern, 1983; Henny et al., 1991, 1994; Garcı´a-Ferna´ ndezet al., 1995). Sludge from sewage treatment facilities is often added to agricultural land and can be a source of lead (Pain, 1995; Pattee and Pain, 2003), and lead in paint chips has been shown to poison both captive birds, such as the sandhill crane (Grus canadensis) (Kennedy et al., 1977), and wild species, for example the Laysan albatross (Phoebastria immutabilis) (Sileo and Fefer, 1987; Work and Smith, 1996; Finkelstein et al."

After stating that most cases are NOT from ammunition, it then goes on for seven more pages ignoring its own statement and blaming ammunition. I don't know what the truth is, but I know when feelings are being used as facts.

This thread should be closed by administrators as it has begun to evolve into a political argument to bash hunters, fishermen, and outdoor sportsman, who provide far more funding for conservation than any other source.

 

[Ibrahim]

I took the time to look up and read the paper referenced above by Fisher, Pain and Thomas. It is not hard to find. I was a bit surprised to see that in the introduction it states:

"Most cases of poisoning occur following exposure to very elevated lead concentrations, such as may be found in the vicinity of mines, waste dumps, and industrial plants (Blus et al., 977; Custer and Mulhern, 1983; Henny et al., 1991, 1994; Garcı´a-Ferna´ ndezet al., 1995). Sludge from sewage treatment facilities is often added to agricultural land and can be a source of lead (Pain, 1995; Pattee and Pain, 2003), and lead in paint chips has been shown to poison both captive birds, such as the sandhill crane (Grus canadensis) (Kennedy et al., 1977), and wild species, for example the Laysan albatross (Phoebastria immutabilis) (Sileo and Fefer, 1987; Work and Smith, 1996; Finkelstein et al."

After stating that most cases are NOT from ammunition, it then goes on for seven more pages ignoring its own statement and blaming ammunition. I don't know what the truth is, but I know when feelings are being used as facts.

This thread should be closed by administrators as it has begun to evolve into a political argument to bash hunters, fishermen, and outdoor sportsman, who provide far more funding for conservation than any other source.

This thread began with opinionated anecdotal posts. It seems to me it has evolved into a sensible discussion. I don't bash hunters or fishermen. I had a fishing lodge in NZ. It is obvious that there are passions in the discussion but I don't see why that should warrant it being closed.
BTW thanks for the follow up on the paper by Fisher, Pain and Thomas.

 

[JustinGriggs]

I took the time to look up and read the paper referenced above by Fisher, Pain and Thomas. It is not hard to find. I was a bit surprised to see that in the introduction it states:

"Most cases of poisoning occur following exposure to very elevated lead concentrations, such as may be found in the vicinity of mines, waste dumps, and industrial plants (Blus et al., 977; Custer and Mulhern, 1983; Henny et al., 1991, 1994; Garcı´a-Ferna´ ndezet al., 1995). Sludge from sewage treatment facilities is often added to agricultural land and can be a source of lead (Pain, 1995; Pattee and Pain, 2003), and lead in paint chips has been shown to poison both captive birds, such as the sandhill crane (Grus canadensis) (Kennedy et al., 1977), and wild species, for example the Laysan albatross (Phoebastria immutabilis) (Sileo and Fefer, 1987; Work and Smith, 1996; Finkelstein et al."

After stating that most cases are NOT from ammunition, it then goes on for seven more pages ignoring its own statement and blaming ammunition. I don't know what the truth is, but I know when feelings are being used as facts.

This thread should be closed by administrators as it has begun to evolve into a political argument to bash hunters, fishermen, and outdoor sportsman, who provide far more funding for conservation than any other source.

The sentence following the quote you pulled states "Although some species are exposed to high levels of lead in their food [removed the list of refernces for brevity], compared to ingestion of shot and bullet fragments, contamination of birds from other sources of lead is generally only locally significant or relatively minor, and increasingly so as the use of lead is being phased out globally." Some context there.

I could've been more thorough in my previous post, but I just pulled one of the more commonly known papers examining the impact of lead ammunition on raptor mortality. There is extensive literature showing proven links between lead ammunition and lead toxicity in birds, and I'd be happy to provide links to other papers on the effects if anyone is interested.

If my previous posts were taken in such a way as bashing sportsmen, that was not my intention. While I myself do not fish or hunt, I have plenty of friends, family, and colleagues who do, and I respect the great contributions to conservation that come from those industries. The point I'm attempting to make is that there is an extensively documented link between some aspects of those industries has an unintended downstream impact on wildlife. That is often portrayed as an attack on those industries, but there is a difference between attempting to have serious conversations about modifying equipment and behaviors to mitigate harm and calling for outright bans on hunting/fishing, which is something that I've never, and will never, call for.

I was in my original post requesting the thoughts of Justin in relation to the ecology of an area void of [ effectively ] human activity.

Ibrahim, I do not really have any extensive knowledge about DMZs and wildlife, nor particularly about the effectiveness of no human zones, so I wouldn't feel comfortable speculating about something I'm not well versed in

 

[AlanB313]

I want to wade in here and provide some additional context. As background, I'm finishing up my BSc in Wildlife Biology this year, and have participated in numerous federally and state permitted avian research projects, most involving banding.

I can assure you that the banding projects I've been involved in take the welfare of the animals as the first and foremost priority - we have extensive training requirements for those handling the birds, strict environmental conditions for when we have to shut down the operation for bird safety, anti-predatory measures. For example, during on Saw-whet owl banding season we heard a Barred Owl calling near our nets, and as they could potentially prey on Saw-whets, we posted a guard sitting silently in the dark next to the nets on rotating 30-minute watches for 7 days just to ensure that if a Barred Owl showed up and tried to get an owl in the net we would be able to take action. I've never experienced "hobby" banders as previously alluded to, and I be very surprised if you ran into such a situation. In an analysis of banding injuries, out of ~621,000 banding encounters, ~0.23% ended in mortality (Spotswood et. al, 2012)

These precautions and requirements are even more strict when Threatened & Endangered species involved. I spent a season work on a T&E crew monitoring Piping Plover populations, and as a part of our permit from USFWS we were permitted 5 "incidental takes" for the entire season along the entire project (~1000 miles of river across dozens of field crews). Meaning that if by whatever means 5 adults, juveniles, or even eggs were killed or destroyed along the entire project, all work had to stop every where until the supervising biologists were able to assess the situation and give guidance on how to proceed. This stuff is taken extremely seriously.

As for why we band, there are numerous reasons. Primarily is it provides a wealth of demographic data. Every bird is aged, sexed, body condition recorded, physical measurements, etc. Often a feather will be taken for genetic analysis if that will be useful for the study. As part of this, every bird is banded with USGS aluminum bands - that's your standard ID band with a unique number. Depending on the study, unique identifiers may be applied as well like colored bands for easy individual ID during resighting studies. Its far easier to see Yellow over Metal/Blue over White than trying to read the silver band numbers. In other cases like condors, wing tags may be used. And as seen in the spark of this conversation, data loggers and transmitters may be used.

Someone above linked to a video about MOTUS tracking, which is something I've worked with a fair bit - it is one of the most exciting new technologies for tracking fine scale movements of birds, aiding in our understanding of migration routes and timing, but again, it requires capturing birds to attach the MOTUS backpacks to them. It's a necessary evil if we want to understand how birds are responding to a rapidly changing world.

In an ideal world, we would love to not have to handle wildlife - that's what's safest for them and for us, but many of the questions we want to answer simply can't be evaluated right now without the use of tagging of some sort.





1. Spotswood, E.N., Goodman, K.R., Carlisle, J., Cormier, R.L., Humple, D.L., Rousseau, J., Guers, S.L. and Barton, G.G. (2012), How safe is mist netting? evaluating the risk of injury and mortality to birds. Methods in Ecology and Evolution, 3: 29-38. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.2041-210X.2011.00123.x

Thanks for your post and the article on the safety of mist netting! Interesting read. I appreciate getting responses from professionals in the thread, as I'm just a volunteer. The care and dedication I've witnessed has been exemplary.
-Alan

 

[Ibrahim]

Thanks for the reply Justin. I have no experience of DMZs either. I do know that the previous next door neighbour didn't mow his grass and his property hosted Whip birds, and Satin bower birds. When he left the next next door neighbour cleaned up the property and those two species left. For all I know they would have left anyway but I miss them.

 

[David Berry]

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

Bar-tailed Godwit
Moreton Bay, Queensland
2023–09–18​

---

Given the date (immediately before southern spring equinox), I'll surmise that this bird has just flown around 10,000 km from the far north of the Pacific, and been tagged almost immediately upon arrival (tag looks new).

The migratory route is known as the East Asian–Australasian Flyway (EAAF).

The single green flag indicates Queensland and the code identifies the tagger. Below are some of the colour codes for the EAAF.

---

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

 

[Ibrahim]

Thanks for the info David.

 

[French Avocado]

I read all four pages of this thread and we need to get back on track. I am baffled by two things: (1) how did @jeffnles1 get confused between pink flamingos and pink panthers?; and (2) how could @jeffnles1 watch Peter Sellers and not Steve Martin in his best role ever?

 

[jeffnles1]

I read all four pages of this thread and we need to get back on track. I am baffled by two things: (1) how did @jeffnles1 get confused between pink flamingos and pink panthers?; and (2) how could @jeffnles1 watch Peter Sellers and not Steve Martin in his best role ever?

French,
There was a post that has since been deleted that shared a clip from a Pink Panther movie. The person who posted that link has since deleted the post.

 

[French Avocado]

French,
There was a post that has since been deleted that shared a clip from a Pink Panther movie. The person who posted that link has since deleted the post.

Thanks. I did not see that one. That answers number 1 and I assume the clip was the old Pink Panther which would answer number 2. I have to say that Steve Martin did a remarkable job in the remake. I quote lines from that movie all the time. "How fatal was it? Completely. I want to talk to him. But he's dead. Ahhh."

 

[jeffnles1]

Thanks. I did not see that one. That answers number 1 and I assume the clip was the old Pink Panther which would answer number 2. I have to say that Steve Martin did a remarkable job in the remake. I quote lines from that movie all the time. "How fatal was it? Completely. I want to talk to him. But he's dead. Ahhh."

Good stuff. A lot of that was good comedy.
Inspector: does your dog bite
Hotel clerk:no
Dog: snap
Clerk: that’s not my dog.

 

[splatbass]

Research does cost money. May be some here opposed to hunting, but Pittman-Robertson wildlife restoration funds raised from hunters have funded $14 billion in wildlife research and conservation.
Perhaps if bird watchers and photographers had a tax (I know, hard to implement) funding would find new ways.
As it is, banding is the most common method for researching bird behaviors to make more informed decisions on efforts to help them.
I contribute to the Audubon Society. Hopefully other photographers do too.
Anyone know of other avenues to help?

I haven't hunted with a gun for more than 40 years (just lost the desire to kill, but I'm not against others doing it), but I'm a member of the Hawaii Audubon Society, and give money to the nature conservancy, Sierra Club, and other organizations that protect habitat. I don't think a tax is necessary, I think most people that care about nature and wildlife will give on their own.