Gear choice upgrade for birds

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orangecafe

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Hello! I’m exclusively shooting small birds, hand held. I need to upgrade from current set up: Nikon D700 + Tamron 160-600 G2. Currently I have no eye tracking, back button focus stopped working, and shutter malfunctions at 1/8000. It’s also heavy. So want something lighter that will help with getting a much better ratio of great shots. Usually focus, lack of sharpness are the issues. ** I’m open to a new lens as well as a new camera for sure. **
One young new owner of a local camera store repair owner said Olympus is hands down the best for birds and he doesn’t carry Olympus in his shop (Previous owner let some brands lapse). Yet I most often read about Canon and Nikon used for birds. What do you all recommend??! Specifics oils be appreciated. Ready to upgrade asap. Thank you!!
 
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I haven’t used Olympus, now OM Systems, but a lot of people really like them. It’s a m4/3 system so smaller and lighter, with a 2x crop factor so a 400mm is equivalent field of view as an 800mm on full frame. You do lose some IQ with the smaller sensor but how much or how impactful to you I don’t know. It also depends on how small and light you want to go as well as your budget.

Personally for me, I like Canon’s bodies but not their lenses. Sony has the popular 200-600mm for a reasonable price and all their new bodies have very competent auto focus with tracking and I’d seriously consider the A7iv and 200-600mm if you don’t need speed. Nikon has the new Z8 and 400mm 4.5 and 800mm PF lenses if in your budget. I don‘t know enough about the OM Systems to provide a recommendation but there are some shooting it here that will probably offer their advice. I actually don’t shoot birds that frequently, but there are some very compelling options out there today.
 
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NorthernFocus said:
If indeed you shoot exclusively small birds handheld it's hard to beat either D500 or D7500 with the 500mm PF. That's effectively way more pixels on target than what you're currently shooting, a better lens, and lighter. And a very small learning curve from where you are. Unless of course you want to move to mirrorless.
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Thank you. I appreciate the detailed advice!
 
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abc123brian said:
I haven’t used Olympus, now OM Systems, but a lot of people really like them. It’s a m4/3 system so smaller and lighter, with a 2x crop factor so a 400mm is equivalent field of view as an 800mm on full frame. You do lose some IQ with the smaller sensor but how much or how impactful to you I don’t know. It also depends on how small and light you want to go as well as your budget.

Personally for me, I like Canon’s bodies but not their lenses. Sony has the popular 200-600mm for a reasonable price and all their new bodies have very competent auto focus with tracking and I’d seriously consider the A7iv and 200-600mm if you don’t need speed. Nikon has the new Z8 and 400mm 4.5 and 800mm PF lenses if in your budget. I don‘t know enough about the OM Systems to provide a recommendation but there are some shooting it here that will probably offer their advice. I actually don’t shoot birds that frequently, but there are some very compelling options out there today.
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Thanks so much.
 
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abc123brian said:
I haven’t used Olympus, now OM Systems, but a lot of people really like them. It’s a m4/3 system so smaller and lighter, with a 2x crop factor so a 400mm is equivalent field of view as an 800mm on full frame. You do lose some IQ with the smaller sensor but how much or how impactful to you I don’t know. It also depends on how small and light you want to go as well as your budget.

Personally for me, I like Canon’s bodies but not their lenses. Sony has the popular 200-600mm for a reasonable price and all their new bodies have very competent auto focus with tracking and I’d seriously consider the A7iv and 200-600mm if you don’t need speed. Nikon has the new Z8 and 400mm 4.5 and 800mm PF lenses if in your budget. I don‘t know enough about the OM Systems to provide a recommendation but there are some shooting it here that will probably offer their advice. I actually don’t shoot birds that frequently, but there are some very compelling options out there today.
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Thanks so much.
 
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A Canon R7, Sigma 150-600 C and adaptor for EF lenses will cost A$ 3600. It's what I use most of the time and it's a lot better IQ than me. You save over A$1000 against just the 500mm pf. You get the benefit of zoom. If in a year you think it's holding you back it will have a resale value.
I doubt very much I could tell the difference between a Sigma 150-600 C and a 500mm pf. I could stuff up images with either.

PS http://www.motorsportmemorial.org/focus.php?db=ct&n=3379

Having a fast car doesn't mean you have the skill to drive it.
 
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Best SLR Nikon D-500, 500pf. No subject ID, not a zoom but acquires focus quite quickly. Much easier to use the 500pf than the Sigma 150-600C. (I had both.)

Best cropped mirrorless. (You will have a learning curve)
OM-1/100-400zoom and/or 300f4+1.4TC. Small sensor, only 20mp but lightning-fast acquisition, good subject ID for birds. Very light and compact (100-400+OM-1 is less than 4# total). About $3500 new.

OM systems also makes an awesome, and awesomely expensive 140-400 F4.5 zoom with built in 1.2 TC. It is 1.5# heavier than the 100-400 but probably IS the best bird photography setup out there. Finding this lens is currently very hard.
-or-
Canon R7/100-500 zoom. Not a stacked sensor so rolling shutter is possible but excellent subject ID and acquisition, and the sensor is 34mp. About $4200. Not as compact or light as the OM-1 but lighter than the D-500/500pf

Best full frame mirrorless
Nikon Z-8/500pf+ftz. Heavier than the D500 and you will need a TC or shoot in Dx mode to get better reach BUT Will get better subject separation in non-DX mode if you don't crop. 45mp full frame stacked sensor. Serious learning curve (Buy Steve's book) and not a zoom. Most expensive by far.
or
Sony A-1/200-600zoom. Lighter than the Z-8 or D-500 combo. Great camera, equal to the Z-8. Zoom but not as much reach as the OM-1 or Canon R-7

The key question is how much does weight matter to you. Your D-7000/150-600C is poorly balanced and I generally needed a mnonopod when I shot that lens with a D-7200. Moving to a D-500/500pf gained a better balanced rig and I was able to hand hold. It then evaluated the OM-1/100-400 side by side against a Canon R-7/100-500 and chose the OM-1 due to lighter weight, more compact and better balanced but it was a close choice. I later picked up a 300f4 and liked the 50 f/s advantage. I still use the 100-400 the most.

tom
 
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As you have already seen, there are a lot of options and points of view. Mine is just one of those many. I recently went through a similar exercise. I ended up with the Canon R7 and the Canon 100-500. I was concerned about the F7.1 aperture but I have not found that to be a hindrance. With Topaz, Lightroom, DXO, etc. noise is not a problem. I sometimes shoot as much as 8000 ISO and the images are a little noisy but it cleans up well. I got tired of lugging the D500 and 200-500 around on our wildlife and nature hikes. The R7 and 100-500 is a very light setup and the image quality is great.

But, as already stated here, there are other options that I'm sure will work just as well.

Jeff
[edited to correct typo. My camera body was D500 not D800. Fat fingers.]
 
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orangecafe said:
Hello! I’m exclusively shooting small birds, hand held. I need to upgrade from current set up: Nikon D700 + Tamron 160-600 G2. Currently I have no eye tracking, back button focus stopped working, and shutter malfunctions at 1/8000. It’s also heavy. So want something lighter that will help with getting a much better ratio of great shots. Usually focus, lack of sharpness are the issues. ** I’m open to a new lens as well as a new camera for sure. **
One young new owner of a local camera store repair owner said Olympus is hands down the best for birds and he doesn’t carry Olympus in his shop (Previous owner let some brands lapse). Yet I most often read about Canon and Nikon used for birds. What do you all recommend??! Specifics oils be appreciated. Ready to upgrade asap. Thank you!!
Click to expand...

Did you mention your budget? Are you trying to repurpose the Tamron or starting totally fresh?
 
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Tom Reynolds said:
Best SLR Nikon D-500, 500pf. No subject ID, not a zoom but acquires focus quite quickly. Much easier to use the 500pf than the Sigma 150-600C. (I had both.)

Best cropped mirrorless. (You will have a learning curve)
OM-1/100-400zoom and/or 300f4+1.4TC. Small sensor, only 20mp but lightning-fast acquisition, good subject ID for birds. Very light and compact (100-400+OM-1 is less than 4# total). About $3500 new.

OM systems also makes an awesome, and awesomely expensive 140-400 F4.5 zoom with built in 1.2 TC. It is 1.5# heavier than the 100-400 but probably IS the best bird photography setup out there. Finding this lens is currently very hard.
-or-
Canon R7/100-500 zoom. Not a stacked sensor so rolling shutter is possible but excellent subject ID and acquisition, and the sensor is 34mp. About $4200. Not as compact or light as the OM-1 but lighter than the D-500/500pf

Best full frame mirrorless
Nikon Z-8/500pf+ftz. Heavier than the D500 and you will need a TC or shoot in Dx mode to get better reach BUT Will get better subject separation in non-DX mode if you don't crop. 45mp full frame stacked sensor. Serious learning curve (Buy Steve's book) and not a zoom. Most expensive by far.
or
Sony A-1/200-600zoom. Lighter than the Z-8 or D-500 combo. Great camera, equal to the Z-8. Zoom but not as much reach as the OM-1 or Canon R-7

The key question is how much does weight matter to you. Your D-7000/150-600C is poorly balanced and I generally needed a mnonopod when I shot that lens with a D-7200. Moving to a D-500/500pf gained a better balanced rig and I was able to hand hold. It then evaluated the OM-1/100-400 side by side against a Canon R-7/100-500 and chose the OM-1 due to lighter weight, more compact and better balanced but it was a close choice. I later picked up a 300f4 and liked the 50 f/s advantage. I still use the 100-400 the most.

tom
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Tom, Excellent review. I really appreciate the side by side comparison, especially comments on my current rig. I’m leaning toward the OM-1.

Can you tell me what to expect when going from full frame to cropped sensor. I don’t yet have a grasp of what that means.
 
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It's always perilous to make a claim such as that a particular system is "hands down" the best, etc. . . . I use both Olympus/OM and Nikon. The Olympus OM1 with the very expensive 150-400 (500) zoom is really superb, especially if you mix in the 1.4x and 2x teleconverters. It's sharp, has excellent bird/eye focus, and is easy to travel with (all my gear in a ThinkTank Airport Advantage rolling bag has become my go-to). The 300mm f4 is a fantastic lens, if you can live without a zoom, and it would keep you within the budget.

If price were no object, a Nikon Z9 (and now Z8, which is smaller and lighter) with a 500PF lens plus Nikon teleconverters is also a terrific way to go. Or now, the 800 PF. Using a mirrorless with the 500pf is a BIG advantage when it comes to shooting at any aperture smaller than 5.6. When I went to Africa a few years ago I did very well with the now-aging Z7 plus 500mm plus 1.4x, shooting at f8. Unless you are willing to forgo bird eye focus, I think Nikon is actually NOT a good option, as the Z8 plus 500PF will blow the budget.

Some people swear by the Sony AR7v plus the 200-600mm zoom plus 1.4x teleconverter. Or the Canon R7 plus the 100-500mm zoom.

I don't think there is a single "best system hands down." I do think at this juncture that aside from the M43 option, it's wisest to get a high-megapixel full frame camera if you can, and then set the image size to DX if you are so inclined.
 
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For a $5000 budget I’d recommend Nikon D500 and 500mm PF lens. Perfect compromise of cost, weight, size, performance, and image quality. It’s what I’ve been using for several years for birding. If I had unlimited funds I’d love to try a Z8 with the 800mm PF, I’d think that’s the absolute best rig for birding (however a little large, a bit heavy, and expensive).
 
orangecafe said:
I will start fresh. I didn’t mention budget. I need to evaluate options so am a bit flexible but I think around $5,000 total camera and lens.
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With Canon you could get an R7 (crop sensor) with the 100-500 for that much, or a refurbished R5 (full frame) with the 100-500 and a 1.4x for around $6000.
 
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orangecafe said:
Tom, Excellent review. I really appreciate the side by side comparison, especially comments on my current rig. I’m leaning toward the OM-1.

Can you tell me what to expect when going from full frame to cropped sensor. I don’t yet have a grasp of what that means.
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M43 sensor is a much smaller sensor. The factor is 2x (ignoring the differences between the 4:3 ratio of M43 and the 3:2 ratio of most other systems). You are currently shooting a FF 12MP camera. OM-1 is a 20MP M43 sensor. Pixel density would be similar to an 80MP FF sensor!!

The FOV of a given lens is 2x what it is on your D700. You currently have up to a 600mm FOV with your lens. You would get that same 600mm FOV with a 300mm lens on the M43 system. However, there is no free lunch. The resulting DOF for a given aperture also has to be adjusted by 2 stops. So if you put the 300 f/4 lens on the OM-1 that would give you a similar image to a 600 f/8 lens on your D700. Currently you have 600 f/6.3 out of your Tamron lens. So a little more DOF and a little less subject isolation compared to what you ahve now. Also the OM-1 is letting in 2x less light so even though you are at f/4 for light gathering your noise performance would be ~2stops worse than f/4 on FF...but you are already using 1 1/3 stops worse so you aren't too far off. The much more modern sensor of the OM-1 would probably offset some of that noise performance anyways.

I think the OM-1 with 300/4 lens (or the 100-400) maybe with 1.4TC would be a really good option. OM-1 has excellent AF and Subject detection...probably as good as any of the other big FF cameras like A1, R5, Z9.
 
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NorthernFocus said:
If you're talking Z8(FTZ)/D500 w/500PF you must have pulled the wrong numbers somewhere. Z8/D500 combo totals 89/78oz(2523/2211g) vs 101oz(2863g) for the A1/200-600.
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My error even when adding in the FTZ2.
orangecafe said:
Tom, Excellent review. I really appreciate the side by side comparison, especially comments on my current rig. I’m leaning toward the OM-1.

Can you tell me what to expect when going from full frame to cropped sensor. I don’t yet have a grasp of what that means.
Click to expand...

Think of a cropped sensor as a full frame sensor that you crop in software. The effective F/stop of the resultant crop is the actual F/stop times the crop factor. So you shoot a full frame 600mm f4 lens then crop to a DX sized image the effective F/stop is f4 x 1.5 (crop factor)=F6. In the grand scheme of things a larger effective F/stop means a larger depth-of-field and a higher ISO or slower shutter speed.

A major difference is what is known as "subject definition". If the eye is tack sharp (and it will be in any good mirrorless camera with subject detection) the background will be more or less out of focus. The shorter depth-of-field will provide more background blur so the subject will stand out more from the background. Your current system with the 150-600 zoom will provide less subject definition than many photographer's like.

Question, does this matter? To shoot pictures like Steve does you will need a short depth-of-field and that requires a Full Frame camera, shooting at a low f/stop and no cropping. The typical professional will use a full frame camera and a 600f4 lens to attain that desired depth of field

In comparison, let's say I take the same shot with my OM-1 and my 300F4 lens. The effective reach is 600mm (300mm X 2.0 crop factor) so the field of view would be the same. I would get the same picture but the OM-1 would have a larger depth-of-field because the effective F/stop is (F4 x 2.0 crop factor) F8.

I don't see a FF solution, mirrorless in your price range
 
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Tom Reynolds said:
Best SLR Nikon D-500, 500pf. No subject ID, not a zoom but acquires focus quite quickly. Much easier to use the 500pf than the Sigma 150-600C. (I had both.)

Best cropped mirrorless. (You will have a learning curve)
OM-1/100-400zoom and/or 300f4+1.4TC. Small sensor, only 20mp but lightning-fast acquisition, good subject ID for birds. Very light and compact (100-400+OM-1 is less than 4# total). About $3500 new.

OM systems also makes an awesome, and awesomely expensive 140-400 F4.5 zoom with built in 1.2 TC. It is 1.5# heavier than the 100-400 but probably IS the best bird photography setup out there. Finding this lens is currently very hard.
-or-
Canon R7/100-500 zoom. Not a stacked sensor so rolling shutter is possible but excellent subject ID and acquisition, and the sensor is 34mp. About $4200. Not as compact or light as the OM-1 but lighter than the D-500/500pf

Best full frame mirrorless
Nikon Z-8/500pf+ftz. Heavier than the D500 and you will need a TC or shoot in Dx mode to get better reach BUT Will get better subject separation in non-DX mode if you don't crop. 45mp full frame stacked sensor. Serious learning curve (Buy Steve's book) and not a zoom. Most expensive by far.
or
Sony A-1/200-600zoom. Lighter than the Z-8 or D-500 combo. Great camera, equal to the Z-8. Zoom but not as much reach as the OM-1 or Canon R-7

The key question is how much does weight matter to you. Your D-7000/150-600C is poorly balanced and I generally needed a mnonopod when I shot that lens with a D-7200. Moving to a D-500/500pf gained a better balanced rig and I was able to hand hold. It then evaluated the OM-1/100-400 side by side against a Canon R-7/100-500 and chose the OM-1 due to lighter weight, more compact and better balanced but it was a close choice. I later picked up a 300f4 and liked the 50 f/s advantage. I still use the 100-400 the most.

tom
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Good suggestions but I’m not sure how you got the om1 + 300f4 to total $3500 new (it’d be $4,800) but maybe you just meant the om1 and 100-400?
 
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arbitrage said:
M43 sensor is a much smaller sensor. The factor is 2x (ignoring the differences between the 4:3 ratio of M43 and the 3:2 ratio of most other systems). You are currently shooting a FF 12MP camera. OM-1 is a 20MP M43 sensor. Pixel density would be similar to an 80MP FF sensor!!

The FOV of a given lens is 2x what it is on your D700. You currently have up to a 600mm FOV with your lens. You would get that same 600mm FOV with a 300mm lens on the M43 system. However, there is no free lunch. The resulting DOF for a given aperture also has to be adjusted by 2 stops. So if you put the 300 f/4 lens on the OM-1 that would give you a similar image to a 600 f/8 lens on your D700. Currently you have 600 f/6.3 out of your Tamron lens. So a little more DOF and a little less subject isolation compared to what you ahve now. Also the OM-1 is letting in 2x less light so even though you are at f/4 for light gathering your noise performance would be ~2stops worse than f/4 on FF...but you are already using 1 1/3 stops worse so you aren't too far off. The much more modern sensor of the OM-1 would probably offset some of that noise performance anyways.

I think the OM-1 with 300/4 lens (or the 100-400) maybe with 1.4TC would be a really good option. OM-1 has excellent AF and Subject detection...probably as good as any of the other big FF cameras like A1, R5, Z9.
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I can not tell you how helpful your advice is — reading comparisons of options to specifically what I currently have. I saw a video linked from this forum reviewing the OM-1 (can’t locate it at the moment) He said it tracks birds well but then doesn’t hold the focus! That turned me off a bit to the OM-1. What do you guys think about that?
My estimations show:

OM-1 + 100-400 is $3300 and about 4lbs total

Nikon D500 + 200-500 is $3600, 5-6 lbs

Canon R7 + 100-500 $4100 4.3lbs

Objective: I’m trying to improve keeper rate, sharpness, tracking of bird eyes, over my current rig of D700 + Tamron 160-600)
 
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The OM-1 typically shoots at 20-25 frames/sec with the 100-400. It sometimes loses focus for a shot or two but overall has a good in-focus/second score. With the 300F4 the camera focuses reliaby @ 50 f/s.

The Canon R7 has an electronic shutter that can shoot @ 30 f/s. It is a bit slower to acquire the subject but has a higher percent of in focus shots than the OM-1 but all specs that I have seen use the 15 f/s mechanical shutter to avoid the possibility of rolling shutter with birds-in-flight. At 15 f/s it falls behind the OM-1 in in-focus frames/sec.

The D-500 will shoot @ 10 f/s all day but which part of the bird in focus will depend on your skill keeping a SP on the eye. I couldn't do that so I shot in GRP AF and the sharpest focus is the closest part of the bird. The 200-500 is rather slow in comparison at focusing.

My experience as an amateur is that ability to acquire focus is most important. Your mileage may vary in this respect.

One possibly is the canon R5 mk II which retails for $3300 and shoot in crop mode when necessary. This adds about $1900 to your bill for a $6000 total but gives you 45MP Full Frame and 19.MP cropped. The 100-500 is 7.1 when extended so even in Full Frame mode you will not get the subject isolation that a F4 lens gives.

This is a hard choice. You need to get both in your hands. I liked the feel of the R7 better than the Om-1 but found the Canon 100-500 fat and clunky so overall the OM-1 felt better in my hand. My guess is that Jeff had exactly the opposite experience.
 
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