Handheld Focus Shift Shooting (Z9) almost impossible

[pvindis]

Focus shift shooting with the Z9 is fantastic - if you use a tripod!!!
If you want to shoot handheld for example insects, it is virtually impossible to use, because you cannot focus and begin Focus Shift Shooting at the same time. You have to go past a menu item to start Focus Shft Shooting and then you have lost your focus point.
It would be desirable if you could combine focusing with for instance an F button and then start shooting.

 

[Joel N]

I tried focus shift handheld on z9 .... the first time was the last time…

 

[Charles Loy]

But that would be true with any camera -?

 

[sh1209]

I’ve read others stating they’ve done that successfully but I honestly don’t believe it. I’ve focus stacked for years doing it manually and automatically in camera and if you’re shooting a 40 image stack of an insect and move even a few millimeters, it’s almost impossible to merge them in post. I would not call anyone a liar, but I would have to see someone with my own eyes do that before I would believe it lol.

 

[Len Shepherd]

But that would be true with y camera -?

Some Olympus bodies are reported able to do it entirely in camera - producing a finished stacked image as a jpg in camera.

As most stacking PP software blurs around 5% - 10% of the image area edges - I doubt hand holding for 40 shots without inducing extra edge blur is at all practical.

 

[EricBowles]

Focus shift shooting with the Z9 is fantastic - if you use a tripod!!!
If you want to shoot handheld for example insects, it is virtually impossible to use, because you cannot focus and begin Focus Shift Shooting at the same time. You have to go past a menu item to start Focus Shft Shooting and then you have lost your focus point.
It would be desirable if you could combine focusing with for instance an F button and then start shooting.

I think it is actually possible - but it's a manual stack.

If you turn off Subject Detect, you can use Pinpoint AF to move through a subject starting at the front and moving to the back. If you do this while shooting a burst, moving the Pinpoint AF target, and gradually work through a subject from front to back, you can capture a suitable series - at least in theory. At 20 fps, you can harvest an appropriate series. You could also use manual focus and simply move the camera slightly forward toward the subject with a burst firing. Don Komarechka's snowflake images are created using a manual stack with 50-100 images of a single snowflake followed by retouching and cloning individual frames. He simply moves the camera very small distances.

One of the limitations with creating a manual stack without a tripod is that Helicon Focus requires a series of images be presented in order. So you may have to manually sequence the image stack for it to work. I was trying that this week with macro photos of a flower moving in light wind.

 

[bleirer]

The Z9 must do something differently from Canon. It is possible on Canons R bodies. You go into the menu and choose enable, then the next shutter press is the stack according to the parameters previously set in the menu, number of shots, focus increment, etc.. There is plenty of time to focus and compose, unlimited. It works well with bbaf because you can find the closest part of the scene then either press the shutter or optionally release the back button and manually focus slightly nearer before hitting the shutter. It uses electronic shutter only, so it is lickity-split if you and the subject can stay still for a second. I use a version of a Mahlstick to stabilize my position if there is time and once in a while get a keeper.

How is the Z9 different?

 

[RichF]

Focus shift shooting with the Z9 is fantastic - if you use a tripod!!!
If you want to shoot handheld for example insects, it is virtually impossible to use, because you cannot focus and begin Focus Shift Shooting at the same time. You have to go past a menu item to start Focus Shft Shooting and then you have lost your focus point.
It would be desirable if you could combine focusing with for instance an F button and then start shooting.

Agree. I tried and have been successful. It would be nice to be able to set up Focus Shifting and then have it start when I press another button while looking at the view finder.

 

[Chris K]

It's unfortunate that the Z9 doesn't show its EVF overlay during focus stacking. It's nigh-impossible to hold the camera steady enough to do it handheld.

On the other hand, my X-T4 shows the camera's view during stacking, so it's not so difficult to keep your subject framed and steady when handheld. Olympus does one better by even allowing in-camera stacking. So it's definitely possible... it's just not implemented on the Z9.

 

[Tom Reynolds]

I can focus stack hand held on the OM-1. It is limited to 15 shots in camera, but I have only tried 5 and am only successful abnout 1/4 of the time.

 

[bleirer]

I guess I'm gathering that the z9 does not use the shutter button to start the stacking. Seems odd for such a sophisticated camera.

 

[Viseguy]

Done it with the d850, just have initial focus well in front of desired starting point, and throw out those first couple of out of focus pics when building the stack in PS. Its not ideal by any stretch of the word.

 

[EricBowles]

Done it with the d850, just have initial focus well in front of desired starting point, and throw out those first couple of out of focus pics when building the stack in PS.

Handheld or on a tripod?

How many frames, what lens, and how did you handle framing the shot?

 

[Viseguy]

Handheld or on a tripod?

How many frames, what lens, and how did you handle framing the shot?

hand held, I believe 17 to 20 frames. As far as framing, assumed I would not be able to have the camera exactly as I wanted it, so zoomed out a little so I could do a good crop later. 24-70 f2.8. I was really just experimenting to see if it was possible, and it is possible, but far from ideal.

 

[Abinoone]

I can’t imagine how or why anyone would want to do a focus shift/stack with any camera without a tripod. To be effective, focus shift requires exactly the same image to be shot at ever so slightly different focal points which, in my mind, requires a rock solid foundation (i.e. a good tripod) to pull off. The resulting images need to be very closely/exactly aligned for the ultimate merged file to be in focus. Not sure about anyone else, but my aging hands aren’t up to the task without some good support.

 

[Tom Reynolds]

I can’t imagine how or why anyone would want to do a focus shift/stack with any camera without a tripod. To be effective, focus shift requires exactly the exactly the same image to be shot at ever so slightly different focal points which, in my mind, requires a rock solid foundation (i.e. a good tripod) to pull off. The resulting images need to be very closely/exactly aligned for the ultimate merged file to be in focus. Not sure about anyone else, but my aging hands aren’t up to the task without some good support.

I am 81 and stacking a few shots works occasionally for me. My camera has good IBIS.

 

[Bob Hullinger]

Focus shift shooting with the Z9 is fantastic - if you use a tripod!!!
If you want to shoot handheld for example insects, it is virtually impossible to use, because you cannot focus and begin Focus Shift Shooting at the same time. You have to go past a menu item to start Focus Shft Shooting and then you have lost your focus point.
It would be desirable if you could combine focusing with for instance an F button and then start shooting.

Here's another little known focus shift factoid for those who don't already know this. Generally speaking, focus shift shooting programs are ineffective when your VR is turned on because when the focus shift algorithm attempts to progressively adjust focus per your requested settings, the VR algorithm will also continuously attempt to counteract the focus shift adjustment that you set up to do its job of maintaining the original focus point no matter how bad your hands shake when you hold a camera.

I'm thinking I'll be able to hold a camera steady enough for handheld focus shift exposures to work the day a mortician sticks a camera in my hands while he embalms me as long as the mortician embalms the insect too

 

[bleirer]

Here's another little known focus shift factoid for those who don't already know this. Generally speaking, focus shift shooting programs are ineffective when your VR is turned on because when the focus shift algorithm attempts to progressively adjust focus per your requested settings, the VR algorithm will also continuously attempt to counteract the focus shift adjustment that you set up to do its job of maintaining the original focus point no matter how bad your hands shake when you hold a camera.

I'm thinking I'll be able to hold a camera steady enough for handheld focus shift exposures to work the day a mortician sticks a camera in my hands while he embalms me as long as the mortician embalms the insect too

Could you share how you know that about the VR? I hadn't heard that one before and at least for my camera the directions in the manual don't say anything about turning VR off. The focus is just incrementing to a new depth using the fly by wire system.

 

[Bob Hullinger]

Focus shift shooting with the Z9 is fantastic - if you use a tripod!!!
If you want to shoot handheld for example insects, it is virtually impossible to use, because you cannot focus and begin Focus Shift Shooting at the same time. You have to go past a menu item to start Focus Shft Shooting and then you have lost your focus point.
It would be desirable if you could combine focusing with for instance an F button and then start shooting.

This is a nice basic video about Nikon Focus shift shooting that has some good tips if you haven't seen it yet.

 

[EricBowles]

This is a nice basic video about Nikon Focus shift shooting that has some good tips if you haven't seen it yet.

Your link is missing. I think this is the web page and video you intended to link to:

Focus Shift, the Basics: Stacking Focus | Nikon

Learn how to use the focus stacking feature of the D850 DSLR to create images with ultra depth of field.

www.nikonusa.com

This link provides similar information plus some charts around subject size, step width, and number of shots required.

D850 TIPS - Focus Stacking (Focus Shift Photography) | Technical Solutions | Nikon Professional Services

 

[Calson]

VR on Nikon cameras operates independently of the autofocus system. VR needs to stabilize the image before the autofocus system can engage on my Nikon cameras. Most of the time I have VR turned off on the lens. With the Z9 having internal image stabilization there is another layer in operation and so it is not surprising that having stabilization in the lens turned on would cause problems with focus stacking.

I have difficulty thinking of a situation where using a tripod would present a problem when focus stacking. I can in theory shoot hand held with my tilt shift lenses but for multiple reasons I always use a tripod.

The software tthat combines stacked images can center the images automically, with some applications working better than others. Not that different from software that stitches multiple images together.

 

[bleirer]

VR on Nikon cameras operates independently of the autofocus system. VR needs to stabilize the image before the autofocus system can engage on my Nikon cameras. Most of the time I have VR turned off on the lens. With the Z9 having internal image stabilization there is another layer in operation and so it is not surprising that having stabilization in the lens turned on would cause problems with focus stacking.

I have difficulty thinking of a situation where using a tripod would present a problem when focus stacking. I can in theory shoot hand held with my tilt shift lenses but for multiple reasons I always use a tripod.

The software tthat combines stacked images can center the images automically, with some applications working better than others. Not that different from software that stitches multiple images together.

The only scenario I can think of is either one doesn't want to carry a tripod on the trail, or the tripod is not suited to getting down low and close, where someone is hovering over a wildflower or an insect. I've had good luck with carrying 3 dowels (driveway markers cut to length) with a strong rubber band wrapped on one end. It's sort of a makeshift field tripod. I grasp it firmly in my left hand and situate the camera in my right hand on top of the left. Not perfect, but I can stay pretty still for just a couple seconds and the align layers in photoshop does the rest.

 

[Roy]

Focus shift shooting with the Z9 is fantastic - if you use a tripod!!!
If you want to shoot handheld for example insects, it is virtually impossible to use, because you cannot focus and begin Focus Shift Shooting at the same time. You have to go past a menu item to start Focus Shft Shooting and then you have lost your focus point.
It would be desirable if you could combine focusing with for instance an F button and then start shooting.

I still use the D850 over my Z9 for focus stacking.
I like to see what i'm doing before I press the button.
Handheld stacking is possible but you do need a steady technique ...

 

[Ben C]

I agree that Nikon's implementation of focus stacking on the Z9 is very frustrating and makes handholding very difficult. The problem is that by having to go into the menu system to choose "Start" it requires at least 2 button presses (assuming you put FS in My Menu - one press of the menu button and one to start) and the process of using the menu means you can't see your image in the viewfinder. The easy solution would be for Nikon to allow you to assign Focus Stacking "Start") to a function button. Seems like it would be a very easy feature to add in a Firmware update.

Having said that, handheld focus stacking for landscapes even with a very close foreground is definitely doable. I was in the Banff area recently and did it several times on the icy lakes in temps of -20 to -35 below where a tripod was simply impractical to work with. All it really takes is to brace your arms against the ground or even your torso so you can do the two-button press routine without moving your camera much. Once you start the stack it goes at burst speed so it's over in less than a second. Photoshop's auto-align function is more than adequate to deal with any minor alignment issues and give you a sharp image front to back.

Here are a few examples:

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[O]

I agree that Nikon's implementation of focus stacking on the Z9 is very frustrating and makes handholding very difficult. The problem is that by having to go into the menu system to choose "Start" it requires at least 2 button presses (assuming you put FS in My Menu - one press of the menu button and one to start) and the process of using the menu means you can't see your image in the viewfinder. The easy solution would be for Nikon to allow you to assign Focus Stacking "Start") to a function button. Seems like it would be a very easy feature to add in a Firmware update.

Having said that, handheld focus stacking for landscapes even with a very close foreground is definitely doable. I was in the Banff area recently and did it several times on the icy lakes in temps of -20 to -35 below where a tripod was simply impractical to work with. All it really takes is to brace your arms against the ground or even your torso so you can do the two-button press routine without moving your camera much. Once you start the stack it goes at burst speed so it's over in less than a second. Photoshop's auto-align function is more than adequate to deal with any minor alignment issues and give you a sharp image front to back.

Here are a few examples:

View attachment 58162View attachment 58163View attachment 58164

In the Z9 II there will be more buttons, or as the Z8 may be 60mp 12 fps i am hopeful they will address this need there as well.

Only an opinion