How to find the right distance so not over cropping in post?

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That is way tighter than you should try to crop. The bird is just too small in the frame, even with a higher-res sensor. At that range there just aren't enough pixels on the bird for any level of detail. Sometimes you can't beat physics.
Steve…you can never beat physics and physics is the same for everybody…that’s why the Mazda CX-5 and it’s clones from Toyota, Ford and everybody else are essentially identical on the outside except for the badging.
 
Wow, this is an eye opening on discussion for sure. I t makes me think that in most cases, even with a 200- 500 lens I am not getting anywhere near close enough. That kind of makes it hard to get a lot of the correct frame filling images in the wild with birds.
 
I'll offer that we need to verbalize to ourselves why we're taking the photo. Is it for a publishable or printable photo? Is it to later ID a bird? Is it to document what birds, flowers, other wildlife we saw in a given location? Some of my friends keep a sighting list by month and will take photos to keep track of their monthly lists. If the objective is to ID the bird or document what you saw, then it really doesn't matter all that much as long as the identification is possible. The towhee above would easily fall into this category and be "good enough" for the task. For the publishable and printable, yes, getting closer, passing up the shot for a better opportunity, lots of things already discussed would be in order.
 
Wow, this is an eye opening on discussion for sure. I t makes me think that in most cases, even with a 200- 500 lens I am not getting anywhere near close enough. That kind of makes it hard to get a lot of the correct frame filling images in the wild with birds.
Here's another example from my upcoming BIF book. In it, I show about the maximum I'd want to crop. (Although, in a pinch I have cropped tighter if I had a really sharp lens - like a 600 F/4 - and low ISO, still this is about my max for most pics). Also, as DR pointed out, crops like this (or deeper) are best with high res cameras.

crop-max.jpg
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That kind of makes it hard to get a lot of the correct frame filling images in the wild with birds.
It's not an easy task nor is it impossible.

A few strategies I've used in the field away from feeders and the like and not going the whole photo blind route include:

- Take a slow walk in places with lots of bird activity and grab the shots you can. This is hit or miss and not the best way to get a lot of photos but at least I get a good walk out of it. Check birder websites or get to know some local birders to figure out where to go and when to go there. If you see activity near a particular bush or group of trees or the like then head over there and park yourself there for a while, maybe sit down and just relax for a bit as often the birds will come back if there was something bringing them there in the first place.

- Just put yourself in good environment and keep a camera handy. I do this a lot when my wife and I go camping. In the mornings or evenings we'll sit out in our camp chairs enjoying a hot or cold beverage and I'll always keep a camera mounted up with a long lens within reach which these days is usually my D500 with the 500mm PF mounted. I'll set the chairs out with a thought to local trees and bushes for likely perches and the direction of the light and then just enjoy being outside. I've gotten many frame filling images of birds this way as again they tend to accept us after a while if we're just sitting there and sometimes fly right up next to us. If you set up next to a stream or pond your your chances go up even higher. I use this same strategy in our own yard in the warmer months and have had Chickadees and other birds actually land on me or the chair I'm sitting in :)

- Pay attention and try to recognize patterns as you go about your daily travels. For instance when I see the same birds (or at least the same species) in the same area on multiple days it becomes pretty clear that they're either feeding or nesting nearby so I make a note of it and come back with my camera gear when the light is good and just hang out to see if they make an appearance. I've gotten very close and captured images of: Cedar Waxwings, Yellow Warblers, Mountain Bluebirds, Lazuli Buntings, various Wrens, Hummingbirds, Yellow Headed Blackbirds, Red Winged Blackbirds, Western Tanagers, Swallows and others using this basic approach. See a bird once and it could just be passing through but if you see the same birds very close to the same place across multiple days or longer then it's likely there's something that keeps them there or keeps them coming back. Realistically this is the way I've gotten most of my frame filling images of smaller birds in the wild, it takes a bigger time investment to find the spots where they're hanging out but it usually pays off.
 
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I show about the maximum I'd want to crop. (Although, in a pinch I have cropped tighter if I had a really sharp lens - like a 600 F/4 - and low ISO, still this is about my max for most pics).
Great visual example Steve.

FWIW, I might crop that much or sometimes further like you say when shooting the 600mm f/4 in enough light to keep the ISO low but at least for me that would also be while shooting a high resolution camera like the D850. IOW, I personally wouldn't crop that deep and definitely not deeper and expect much out of the image when shooting my D5 or D500 though I realize others might.
 
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One thing I would add to DRs post is to remain still and silent. It is amazing when I walk into the woods and nothing seems to be going on. No birds singing or flying about, no wildlife is visible. When I sit down or just stand there without moving, after about 25-30 minutes the woods come alive. I joke with my wife that every creature in the forest knew we were there as soon as we stepped out of the car. The key is to not make them think you're a predator or a threat. All the "woodcraft" stuff hunters use. Avoid direct eye contact, don't walk straight toward them, stealth. When you move only move a few yards and sit still again. Usually the woods are full of life but they are also far better at hiding than we are at seeing them. Being invisible to predators is something upon which their lives and ability to pass along their genetics to the next generation depends. We're in their world and their rules.

Well stated DR.
 
Great visual example Steve.

FWIW, I might crop that much or sometimes further like you say when shooting the 600mm f/4 in enough light to keep the ISO low but at least for me that would also be while shooting a high resolution camera like the D850. IOW, I personally wouldn't crop that deep or deeper and expect much out of the image when shooting my D5 or D500 though I realize others might.
Oops - good point - I'll add it to the pst.
 
Thank you everyone for your input!!! I have learned alot!! Steve thanks for the newsletter and the photo examples, in a quick look at it maybe I should have found that first where it seems to explain alot of what we've been discussing. Also that photo showing your max crop really helps as that is something I was wondering what a pro photo may look like before cropping. I am using the D850, on manual mode with auto iso. AF-C, spot or D9. I am also working to reduce shutter speed for stationary birds. Instead of trying to just do a setting that hopefully captures both. With small birds like gnatcathers and nuthatchers and how they cant seem to sit still long enough so I up the shutter to help with that. I was recently loaned a Nikon 500mm f/4 prime with a few teleconverters to try. Haven't had alot of time to get out with them yet but the couple times I did, boy did I notice a difference between it and the Sigma 150-600. Everyone all your tips I am either currently working on developing a routine with and will try the others to find what will work for me. Hopefully I can provide an update on my work within the next month since migration is almost over and the heat is rising quick its hard to find a spot where the smaller birds want to be out. I can always find bigger birds like Heron's, Egrets, Osprey, some eagles and hawks. I have noticed areas where I go that certain birds tend to hang out quite often. Once again THANK YOU EVERYONE!! This forum Steve is very helpful and endless location for great information.
 
...Also that photo showing your max crop really helps as that is something I was wondering what a pro photo may look like before cropping.
Just remember that Steve suggested this as a MAXIMUM crop not a typical or suggested crop. Many pro wildlife photos including I’m sure many of Steve’s fill more or all of the frame straight out of the camera.
 
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The best solution…as Steve and others have noted…is to get close enough to get enough pixels on target to get the shot you want without cropping.

The problem is that for many situations getting a closer shot ain’t happening for a variety of reasons…gators or snakes in the swamp…the bear might be hungry…the damn bird flew off as you approached…the ranger yelled at you to get back on the boardwalk…it happens.

When it does happen…ya gotta make do with whatever shot you got or just declare them non keepers…or crop less for a more environmental shot…and a lot of that just depends on other factors like…this is a red shouldered hawk and I have 1000 of those already…or it is the same hawk hauling off the bunny and I don’t have one of those…or it is the golden eagle and it is the o oh one I’ve ever seen…or it is the Ivory Billed Woodpecker and nobody has seen one of those in 75 years.

Generally speaking…as wildlife shooters we try to get the frame filling Nat Geo quality shots…but either the equipment we have with us, our skills, the lighting, or geography doesn’t give us that but something lesser…in which case it gets back to those value judgements
 
The problem is that for many situations getting a closer shot ain’t happening for a variety of reasons…gators or snakes in the swamp…the bear might be hungry…the damn bird flew off as you approached…the ranger yelled at you to get back on the boardwalk…it happens.

LOL, I've experienced all those!
 
There is seldom the use of hides or blinds in the USA and yet it is common in Europe where birds are more people shy. A $100 blind is a more economical approach than buying a big lens and a sturdy tripod and gimbal head at a cost of many thousands of dollars. A car is also an effective blind and there is a photographer who parks short trees or large shrubs and tosses out bird seed and waits for birds to arrive. They will land first in the tree or large bush and that is when he takes his shots. Actually a large jug of water and a 14" or larger shallow plant pot tray works as well as the seed in many areas where water is scarce for the wildlife.

The predators follow the migrating birds and it is the lack of protective plant shrubbery in urban areas that puts birds at risk. I have planted a variety of shrubs on my property and have 6-8 foot tall plants within 3 feet of my feeder stations. Near my water tray which is on the ground I have rosemary within 6 feet and the birds will take off from the dish or tray and dive into the rosemary plants for cover. The birds that tend to get picked off by the hawks are the doves which fly up at a 45 degree angle and make perfect targets.

When it comes to enlarging images I was very constrained with the 12MP D3 camera but far less so with a 24MP camera that provided a 50% gain in resolution. I can enlarge a 8-bit JPEG file from the D850 far more than a Raw file from the D750 with its 24MP sensor. I expect this is why the D500 camera has been so popular as well as the D7200 with the gain in resolution with their DX sensors at 21MP and 24MP.
 
How far is too far depends ENTIRELY on your gear. A good camera body and good lens will allow you to crop more, as the equipment produces higher quality images. I shoot a Nikon D500 and a 300PF F4 and that combo allows me to crop, at more times than I care to admit, more than 1-to-1. Sometimes I use a 1.4TClll and that is a high quality lens as well.

I'm a stickler for not harassing my subjects so I would rather crop than try to get too close and spook the bird or whatever. My pet peeve is photographers who sneak up on a bird and startle them simply so they can get a close flight shot. When I see that in the field we have a discussion. Ethical behavior is our responsibility.
 
How does one know when it’s too much cropping in post production? Working in the field and the landscape prevents you from getting close to the birds or wildlife is there a distance to say it’s just too far, 30 feet or 60 feet? Or whatever distance? Let’s say using a 150-600 or 500 prime lenses. No teleconverters. Since I’m learning bird photography let’s stay on that topic. I know that over cropping distorts or softens a photo. But I can’t seem to find that so called “perfect or close enough distance” for sharp photos. I don’t have a feeding perch or any of that yet. Plus where I live we don’t have a lot of trees in neighborhood for them to feel safe for using it. With lack of trees our predator bird count has increased.

The zoom should make it much easier than a prime. but i'm afraid experience is the best teacher here.
the Nikon lens simulator may be of some help.
 
To add to the above...

I'm currently writing a BIF book and it discusses cropping quite a bit. One of the problems with cropping is that the heavier you crop, the worse the ISO looks upon output. In other words, if I print an 16x20 from a full frame shot vs one that's heavily cropped, even if I have the pixels to do it, the heavier crop will show far more noise a the same output size since I have to enlarge each pixel more. I made this little graphic to help illustrate this in a more visual way. Note that the heavier you crop, the faster things get noisy.


View attachment 18333

The upshot is that if you're gonna have to crop, drop your ISO to help keep the noise in check and retain more detail. However, nothing is going to replace getting close enough in the first place. All we can do is damage control :)

In addition, check out my cropping article. It talks about what happens when you crop and gives suggestions to overcome those issues.

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Hi Steve.
Hurry up with the book. The focus and metering books helped me immensely in my beginning and I just revisited the Nikon autofocus book last week. I got my first owl shots yesterday and used high iso for the first time just because I was out of light and excited. Lol. They did beat a blank but some not pretty. Lol. I'm sure I can pick up a few tricks from your book. What's the hold up? Lol lol 😂. Just kidding. Nice to know it's coming.
 
I completely agree with Steve, DR, and others about the crop.

Another way to look at it is the level of detail desired in a bird photo. I want to be able to see feather detail and texture around the eye. In your post of the images, I don't see that level of detail. That means you need to concentrate on making sharper images and capturing detail. Cropping is secondary because with birds, detail is required. And I want to see feather detail without seeing noise detail.

Fine feather detail can vary some depending on the lens. Some lens and camera combinations need more light to capture detail. If you don't have enough light to show contrast in feathers, you may simply need more light.

Take a look at some of the macro and close up images where you have lots of detail. It's a much more controlled situation, but it gives you an idea of the kind of technique that is needed to capture detail and texture.

Just because you can't capture enough detail does not mean the image is a total loss. For posting on Facebook or similar sites, 800 pixels on the long edge is usually enough, and there are plenty of FB presentations that can use a photo that is 400-600 pixels on the long side. It will be small enough that the lack of detail is much less of an issue. The image you posted here is a relatively large image - and we can see the lack of detail. But there are other uses of the image sized appropriately . I've also seen nice collages with 4 to 26 images in a single page or a single poster. Again - small size with a deep crop may be enough.
 
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