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Ralph Bruno

Well-known member
Supporting Member
I think the individuals that are directly involved in this Sony vs Nikon thing should take a deep breath. Mirrorless or DSLR as well. It’s getting a little ridiculous as Steve pointed out. This forum is about helping and motivating photographers to take better pictures. Most of us choose a camera based on what fits our needs and not based solely on which is better. There are always compromises. Because which is better is a personal opinion based on your needs. So, while this back and forth can be entertaining at times it’s getting a little old. When I see a thread about the Z9 photos , that’s what I want to read about. If I see a thread about the Sony A1, that’s what I expect. Not some back and forth about which is better. Come on people, your better than that. Let’s talk about thing's that improve our skills or helps to solve a problem that one of us is having. It’s not necessary to defend your position that your camera is better than theirs. There are plenty of you-tube videos for that.
 

Abinoone

Well-known member
Supporting Member
I think the individuals that are directly involved in this Sony vs Nikon thing should take a deep breath. Mirrorless or DSLR as well. It’s getting a little ridiculous as Steve pointed out. This forum is about helping and motivating photographers to take better pictures. Most of us choose a camera based on what fits our needs and not based solely on which is better. There are always compromises. Because which is better is a personal opinion based on your needs. So, while this back and forth can be entertaining at times it’s getting a little old. When I see a thread about the Z9 photos , that’s what I want to read about. If I see a thread about the Sony A1, that’s what I expect. Not some back and forth about which is better. Come on people, your better than that. Let’s talk about thing's that improve our skills or helps to solve a problem that one of us is having. It’s not necessary to defend your position that your camera is better than theirs. There are plenty of you-tube videos for that.
Thank you for writing this, Ralph. Exactly my own sentiments. I like BCG, but sometimes am soured by the bickering and strong opinions. In fact, just this morning, I deleted a thread I had posted about the Z9, where the comments had taken a turn for the worse. Sad, really.
 
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BorderBirder

Active member
Supporting Member
I quite agree, Ralph. I thought naively, that Steve’s approach and objectivity was keeping the forum free from such aggro, but with the passage of time this has not remained so. Particularly hard to bear are comments that appear almost to triumph in the perceived shortcomings of the alternative brand. Yet mostly people have been generous in their contributions and hopefully with your prompt and others’ we can get back on track. Let’s remember Steve’s even handedness and keep the forum always as positive and respectful as it has been for the vast majority of the time.
 

Woodpecker

Well-known member
Supporting Member
Perfeclty agree on all the above. These religion wars really don't help - even if in this case it is "only" photography.

Although I never ran a forum myself and thus I don't know how difficult it would be or if suppliers for forum software platforms even provide tools for restructuring existing posts, it might be worthwhile thinking about a structural change. Looking at currently 117 pages with getting close to 3.000 threads in the general discussion section alone. But of course the intention is not to keep @Steve away from taking photos or doing more of his great reviews ... :D.

I think having a MILC and a DSLR section might help a lot already already and as a side effect the traffic data on these sections would be a nice indicator for the move between technologies ;).
 

Ralph Bruno

Well-known member
Supporting Member
Thread starter
Perfeclty agree on all the above. These religion wars really don't help - even if in this case it is "only" photography.

Although I never ran a forum myself and thus I don't know how difficult it would be or if suppliers for forum software platforms even provide tools for restructuring existing posts, it might be worthwhile thinking about a structural change. Looking at currently 117 pages with getting close to 3.000 threads in the general discussion section alone. But of course the intention is not to keep @Steve away from taking photos or doing more of his great reviews ... :D.

I think having a MILC and a DSLR section might help a lot already already and as a side effect the traffic data on these sections would be a nice indicator for the move between technologies ;).
Excellent idea!👍
 

StefanSC

Active member
The fate of all at least tangential to photography forums... to devolve into a 'mine is bigger than yours' measuring contest.

If you split them by brand or by gear type, you'll still end up with people crossing from one subforum to another, kicking the proverbial hornet nest... unless you are very tough with the rules.

Anyway... the perfect quote for this situation is : "There goes the neighbourhood!" :)
 

Woodpecker

Well-known member
Supporting Member
If you split them by brand or by gear type ...
Well, the structure proposal wasn't meant to cure the religion war thing and I am fully aware about that. For curing this you need to re-program a couple of brains rather than altering a forum structure :D. Also this proposal was a quick shot only, nothing even near a structure concept. I know it's not easy and no solution has advantages only. There are always two sides of the medal. But if we ignore the 'mine is bigger better than yours' measuring contest for a while, I think for people looking for particular information a deeper structure can make things easier.
 

Terry

Member
Supporting Member
I think the individuals that are directly involved in this Sony vs Nikon thing should take a deep breath. Mirrorless or DSLR as well. It’s getting a little ridiculous as Steve pointed out. This forum is about helping and motivating photographers to take better pictures. Most of us choose a camera based on what fits our needs and not based solely on which is better. There are always compromises. Because which is better is a personal opinion based on your needs. So, while this back and forth can be entertaining at times it’s getting a little old. When I see a thread about the Z9 photos , that’s what I want to read about. If I see a thread about the Sony A1, that’s what I expect. Not some back and forth about which is better. Come on people, your better than that. Let’s talk about thing's that improve our skills or helps to solve a problem that one of us is having. It’s not necessary to defend your position that your camera is better than theirs. There are plenty of you-tube videos for that.
THANK YOU! I found Steve on UHH which is a hot mess. I was so happy when he fired up this forum. I'm a photojournalist but find wildlife photography interesting. It made me very happy people here seemed to be all about the photo. My hope is this stays the positive place it was when it started.
 

Woodpecker

Well-known member
Supporting Member
My hope is this stays the positive place it was when it started.
Perfectly agree. This is my favourite place exactly because of the way people treat each other and the culture of discussion and I share your hopes.
That said, IMHO that probably depends more on us all than on @Steve alone and I am perfeclty happy and willing to help :D.
Not only the moderator can calm things down. All of us can do this, just by thinking twice about the way we answer to the posts of others. Of course there are always people that aren't even able to think once, but htis is the same everywhere ;).
May be I am be in an easy position here, as English is not my native language and thus I have to look more careful to what I want to say and how to write it anyway.
 

Ralph Bruno

Well-known member
Supporting Member
Thread starter
The fate of all at least tangential to photography forums... to devolve into a 'mine is bigger than yours' measuring contest.

If you split them by brand or by gear type, you'll still end up with people crossing from one subforum to another, kicking the proverbial hornet nest... unless you are very tough with the rules.

Anyway... the perfect quote for this situation is : "There goes the neighbourhood!" :)
Your probably correct about brands , some people can’t help themselves. But I think separating DSLR and Mirrorless might work. Its worth a shot.
 

dabhand16

Well-known member
Supporting Member
I think having a MILC and a DSLR section might help a lot
I used to run a photographic community for 12 years. I always resisted calls for separate forums for (say) Pentax, Canon etc as this inevitably leads to owners only looking at 'their' forum and thus missing stuff that is universal and not tied to a brand. In this example having everything in the one forum does allow people to see stuff thst might not be posted in 'their' forum - shooting tips or bargains found - and allows people to have some knowledge of other brands and so may inform them in their future choices.

So if you had forums for dSLRs and mirrorless, would it then not be logical to further subdivide lenses, tripods, gimbals. heads, memory cards? What about editing software? You can see the issue. The forum would be unmanageable.

Categories can have some benefits but need a good search facility, and if you have that, the need for categories diminishes.
 

Hut2

🇺🇸
Supporting Member
I find it very telling when ex Nikon shooters who switched to Sony lurk in Nikon discussions. If your new gear is better than the Nikon gear why concern yourself over the Nikon discussions? I dont hang out in Sony or Canon discussions do Nikon shooters go there and do the same thing?
I'm still interested in the Z9, I would have ordered one if I thought it would have arrived in a timely manner. But I chose to go A1 back in July. They are very similar with differences. I would be happy to have a Z9 right now and work out the settings for my simple needs of walking around shooting photos of birds and wildlife in my area.

Every little comment isn't worth crying over. A1 is jumpy in the snow, Z9 isn't I am not going to cut my wrist. Tracking birds, A1 doesn't jump to busy backgrounds quickly, R5 does, Z9? people are interested in this.
Not every comment that includes the S word is meant to be annoying some are meant to be helpful since the AF system functions are similar.
I follow a few people from this forum on Flickr and IG that have Z9 in possession and am seeing good results as they learn the camera, that makes me happy.
Steve Mattheis seems very happy with his Z9 and that is awesome. in my opinion, he is a good dude!

I want to see what Arbitrage has to say when he puts them to test. good or bad.
 
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Ralph Bruno

Well-known member
Supporting Member
Thread starter
I used to run a photographic community for 12 years. I always resisted calls for separate forums for (say) Pentax, Canon etc as this inevitably leads to owners only looking at 'their' forum and thus missing stuff that is universal and not tied to a brand. In this example having everything in the one forum does allow people to see stuff thst might not be posted in 'their' forum - shooting tips or bargains found - and allows people to have some knowledge of other brands and so may inform them in their future choices.

So if you had forums for dSLRs and mirrorless, would it then not be logical to further subdivide lenses, tripods, gimbals. heads, memory cards? What about editing software? You can see the issue. The forum would be unmanageable.

Categories can have some benefits but need a good search facility, and if you have that, the need for categories diminishes.
I see your point and it is definitely valid. Especially when it comes to brand. But I think when it comes to DSLR and Mirrorless, most people would have tendency to view both especially since that the direction cameras are going to. (DSLR to Mirrorless). It would certainly make things easy for people who are searching for a specific topic on those two categories.
 

FB101

Well-known member
As much as I agree that at times comparative comments aren't productive (when they turn to better / worse for the sake of superiority as opposed to understanding the differences between systems under different circumstances), there is an even greater risk with silo-thinking and echo-chamber culture, and as a dual system shooter I can say there is way too much of that going on here as well.

That kind of thought process is what gave us 2 years of "the AF system in the Z6/7 holds its own with the best of them for active wildlife shooting" - which is not to say the the AF in those cameras sucks, it works great for a lot uses, it simply isn't on par for that specific kind of use. All of us who shoot across systems knew it, but the echo chamber wouldn't have it.

Arguing, debating, comparing (with the right purpose in mind, it's not a competition, it's a learning journey) is what makes for a vibrant community - or we can get plain vanilla that never questions what would happen if you added some chocolate fudge to it.

Of course civility is a pre-requisite. If we lose civility it really doesn't matter what is being debated because we lose the ability to understand the other viewpoint and experience but way too often we tackle the lapses in civility by eliminating the debate altogether - and that's the wrong answer.
 

jeffnles1

Well-known member
Supporting Member
Unfortunately, I think the only way to stop the arguments and vitriol is to totally ban all discussion of equipment other than "how do I make this camera do ...???" or "What settings are you guys using for ???" type questions. Gear reviews from @Steve would be welcome but he should turn off commenting on them so people won't go 90 pages of debate over who's equipment is better.

I run a nature photography Facebook for our local region and moderate it closely. Any "gear is better" discussions are shut down as are politics and religion. Nothing good comes from those discussions. Personal attacks are removed repeat offenders are banned. I really hate to be such a dictator but it is essential when people cannot behave all on themselves.

Just my opinion on it.

Ralph thank you for posting this. I, too, hope this forum returns to the encouraging nature / wildlife group it started off as.
 

Hut2

🇺🇸
Supporting Member
Unfortunately, I think the only way to stop the arguments and vitriol is to totally ban all discussion of equipment other than "how do I make this camera do ...???" or "What settings are you guys using for ???" type questions. Gear reviews from @Steve would be welcome but he should turn off commenting on them so people won't go 90 pages of debate over who's equipment is better.

I run a nature photography Facebook for our local region and moderate it closely. Any "gear is better" discussions are shut down as are politics and religion. Nothing good comes from those discussions. Personal attacks are removed repeat offenders are banned. I really hate to be such a dictator but it is essential when people cannot behave all on themselves.

Just my opinion on it.

Ralph thank you for posting this. I, too, hope this forum returns to the encouraging nature / wildlife group it started off as.
Sharing a video of Z9 losing focus isn't an attack.
 

dabhand16

Well-known member
Supporting Member
I see your point and it is definitely valid. Especially when it comes to brand. But I think when it comes to DSLR and Mirrorless, most people would have tendency to view both especially since that the direction cameras are going to. (DSLR to Mirrorless). It would certainly make things easy for people who are searching for a specific topic on those two categories.
I can see where you are coming from. But if you wanted a specific topic - and we all do at some point - there is no point in having the info you want in a forum where you have to go through every post to find what you are looking for. Searching is the best way BUT the biggest issue is trying to get people to use good keywording or tagging so a search will find them.

No easy answers.......
 

jeffnles1

Well-known member
Supporting Member
Sharing a video of Z9 losing focus isn't an attack.
I never said it was. I wasn't referring to anyone specific. In the whole Sony/Nikon/Canon discussion there has become a tenor of defensiveness and divisiveness. I never will understand why any photographer would care what brand another photographer uses any more than a driver would care what brand of car someone else drives. It is a foreign concept to me.

To the best of my knowledge you're not a member of my Facebook group and that is where I was talking about attacks.
 

Wes Peterson

Well-known member
Sharing a video of Z9 losing focus isn't an attack.
"I’ve seen several videos so far that make me glad I didn’t wait for Z9"

You think making comments like this in a Z9 discussion is appropriate? You literally came into a Nikon discussion and said your Sony is better lol

It's comments like that that have everyone wishing the Sony shooters had their own section to hang out in.
 

Hut2

🇺🇸
Supporting Member
"I’ve seen several videos so far that make me glad I didn’t wait for Z9"

You think making comments like this in a Z9 discussion is appropriate? You literally came into a Nikon discussion and said your Sony is better lol

It's comments like that that have everyone wishing the Sony shooters had their own section to hang out in.
I didn't consider feelings on that one....lol

I'll keep it in mind going forward.
 

bsinc1962

Well-known member
Supporting Member
It's still a great forum. I feel like as time goes on and more people get the Z9 that the original Z9 post will just fade into memory. It will be replaced by image posts, or general settings posts or whatever. It's winter here in North America so people aren't out shooting as much. This gives people lots of extra time to speculate and hang out on the internet.
 

Steve

Admin
Staff member
Supporting Member
Great post.

There has been a bit of a ramp up of "mine is better than yours" in the comments and I agree it needs to calm down. Every camera has its good and bad points and anyone who thinks some technological bit of trickery they purchased somehow makes them a "better" photographer than someone with a different camera really has a lot to learn about photography!

I can't tell you the number of people I've seen over the years with the "best" possible gear available at time who were, quite frankly, awful. I've also witnessed the opposite just as frequently (I met a guy out west once who only had a Canon Rebel and a kit lens and he was knocking out some absolutely killer wildlife shots - more than a few of which I'd happily put in my portfolio).

Gear helps, but it's always been WAY more about the skillset of the person behind the lens than the equipment. Trying to either lift yourself up or put someone else down based on gear is, to anyone with real experience, asinine. It just makes the person doing it look like rank amateur who really doesn't know what they're doing. Sorry to be blunt.

All that said, I do think that, overall, the tone here is good. Most of the posts are friendly and helpful. When comparing gear, most are dispassionate and only stating experience. The trouble often comes when someone mistakes dispassionate observations for some kind of attack on their brand. I don't think there is anything wrong with pointing out product benefits and deficiencies - I do it all the time. However, I think if you're posting that info that you should, again, state the observations without any "bashing" and anyone reading those thoughts should also consider the poster wasn't trying to personally attack them.

It's tricky from a moderation standpoint too. I often get reports calling something an "attack" when it was really just a factual disagreement. BTW - if you do disagree, keeping to the facts only without snide comments helps. Remember, name calling is the refuge of a weak mind :)

Sorry for the long post, but I have been thinking about some of this stuff for awhile now :)
 

Abinoone

Well-known member
Supporting Member
Great post.

There has been a bit of a ramp up of "mine is better than yours" in the comments and I agree it needs to calm down. Every camera has its good and bad points and anyone who thinks some technological bit of trickery they purchased somehow makes them a "better" photographer than someone with a different camera really has a lot to learn about photography!

I can't tell you the number of people I've seen over the years with the "best" possible gear available at time who were, quite frankly, awful. I've also witnessed the opposite just as frequently (I met a guy out west once who only had a Canon Rebel and a kit lens and he was knocking out some absolutely killer wildlife shots - more than a few of which I'd happily put in my portfolio).

Gear helps, but it's always been WAY more about the skillset of the person behind the lens than the equipment. Trying to either lift yourself up or put someone else down based on gear is, to anyone with real experience, asinine. It just makes the person doing it look like rank amateur who really doesn't know what they're doing. Sorry to be blunt.

All that said, I do think that, overall, the tone here is good. Most of the posts are friendly and helpful. When comparing gear, most are dispassionate and only stating experience. The trouble often comes when someone mistakes dispassionate observations for some kind of attack on their brand. I don't think there is anything wrong with pointing out product benefits and deficiencies - I do it all the time. However, I think if you're posting that info that you should, again, state the observations without any "bashing" and anyone reading those thoughts should also consider the poster wasn't trying to personally attack them.

It's tricky from a moderation standpoint too. I often get reports calling something an "attack" when it was really just a factual disagreement. BTW - if you do disagree, keeping to the facts only without snide comments helps. Remember, name calling is the refuge of a weak mind :)

Sorry for the long post, but I have been thinking about some of this stuff for awhile now :)
As my mother used to tell me when I was a kid, "if you can't say something constructive, don't say it at all" 🤓
 
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