More Nikon PF Lenses?

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J. C. Strange

J. C. Strange

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I think the PF technology is incredible! However, none of the existing lenses using it are exactly what I want from it. So I thought it would be interesting to talk about other possibilities for the technology.
For me, I wish they were slightly heavier. Not cause I want more weight but because I can carry more weight and want more quality. Something like a 600mm f/5.6. Even better possibly would be a 400mm f/4. This could be a handholdable (though heavy) telephoto lens with a nice aperture that, with a teleconverter, could become a 600mm f/5.6.
What would you guys think about a 400mm f/4 PF? What do you want to see from PF?
 
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J. C. Strange said:
I think the PF technology is incredible! However, none of the existing lenses using it are exactly what I want from it. So I thought it would be interesting to talk about other possibilities for the technology.
For me, I wish they were slightly heavier. Not cause I want more weight but because I can carry more weight and want more quality. Something like a 600mm f/5.6. Even better possibly would be a 400mm f/4. This could be a handholdable (though heavy) telephoto lens with a nice aperture that, with a teleconverter, could become a 600mm f/5.6.
What would you guys think about a 400mm f/4 PF? What do you want to see from PF?
Click to expand...
I owned a Nikkor 600mm f/5.6 P series (manual focus) lens many years ago and loved that lens. I'd love to see an AF-S, PF version of that come back into Nikon's lineup.
 
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I'm thinking we're not going to see much more in the way of new F mount lenses from Nikon, but given how much I love the sharpness of the 300 pf I'd like a 600 version too. The 300 is so portable and easy to handle, especially on my Z6 and I rarely shoot it without the 1.4 tc on it.
 
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ssheipel said:
I'm thinking we're not going to see much more in the way of new F mount lenses from Nikon, but given how much I love the sharpness of the 300 pf I'd like a 600 version too. The 300 is so portable and easy to handle, especially on my Z6 and I rarely shoot it without the 1.4 tc on it.
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I suspect you're correct Steven in terms of Nikon investment in new F mount lenses. But I wonder if they'd start designing lenses that could be purchased in either Z mount or F mount versions, especially for specialty long glass. Sure the Z mount can support some really unique super wide aperture shorter focal length lenses that wouldn't be backwards compatible to F mount. But for lenses like long telephotos where they're not pushing the exit pupil size issues I wonder if they'd build the same lens with the same optical formula but sell it in two flavors, one for F mount and one for Z mount?
 
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The 300pf is my go to puffin lens and I've had some incredibly sharp Red Kites with the 1.4 extender fitted ! a fabulous set up if your on the yomp (walking long distances HaHa).
Small Incredibly light and sharp too. Bet a 600 f4 version would make your wallets eyes water.
 
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DRwyoming said:
I suspect you're correct Steven in terms of Nikon investment in new F mount lenses. But I wonder if they'd start designing lenses that could be purchased in either Z mount or F mount versions, especially for specialty long glass. Sure the Z mount can support some really unique super wide aperture shorter focal length lenses that wouldn't be backwards compatible to F mount. But for lenses like long telephotos where they're not pushing the exit pupil size issues I wonder if they'd build the same lens with the same optical formula but sell it in two flavors, one for F mount and one for Z mount?
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Well that would be ideal but really wouldn't drive the sale of Z system cameras :) I think the (very) long game is DLSR is done but for the investment in big glass and cameras that will assure it won't disappear overnight like taxi cabs but surely means 'innovation' isn't likely going to show up in F mount and DSLR -- I think the D6 (which I bought) and it's lack of anything particularly 'game changing-ing-ly' new says it all about where the thinking and investment is likely going. Though with COVID I'm thinking to buy the F6 and a box of film, just in case societal collapse throws us back to analog :)
 
They just released the 500 PF fairly recently though 🤷‍♂️
I read somewhere that the 600 f/5.6 PF drawings were already made???
 
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Nikon patented this lens, and then went with the 500 PF. If we are to believe the recent report on NR, Nikon is struggling to get out 1000 units/month and probably less since mid last year. Considering the delays of the 500 PF compared to the popular 300 PF, perhaps it is the wider PF element that is slowing up production. Considering a 600mm f5.6 will use a 107mm diameter PF element at least. I'm skeptical of a 600mm f/5.6 PF being released in the next year for all the production logistic challenges. Nikon is understandably focussed currently on two priorities: expanding the Z-mount bodies & lens lineup. While the 500 PF appears to be a hit, until Nikon works out the production issues and is able to ramp up production to meet & exceed customer demand, I wouldn't expect a new, longer lens featuring a significantly larger PF element to be announced soon. Even if it is announced it would again take a year or two before we can actually get our hands on it. I waited almost 1 year and 8 months on waitlist to get my 500mm PF.
 
I waited a long time to get one, then gave up when priorities changed, so I bought a 200-500 as a replacement item. :cry: Maybe someday, but it is only a hobby for me.
 
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Hut said:
They just released the 500 PF fairly recently though 🤷‍♂️
I read somewhere that the 600 f/5.6 PF drawings were already made???
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DRwyoming said:
Yeah, as I understand it the drawings for a 600mm lens was part of their patent filings but they released the 500mm.
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I'd love an 'inexpensive' (relatively speaking) 600 but again there's a 100-600 S mount lens named on the Z roadmap, so I'm not holding my breath for any new F mount lenses.
 
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I have the 300 mm and 500 mm PF lenses. They are great for my photography — wildlife, often from a canoe or kayak or walking around. The lighter lenses are also good for travel. I use them both on DSLRs (D500 and D850) and Z bodies (Z7 and Z6). They balance nicely on the Z bodies.

I would be very interested in a 600 mm f5.6 PF. I would probably also be interested in a 400 mm f4 PF.
 
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I'm another fervent 400 f4 PF "Hoper" :):D and would sell off a granny or two to afford both a 400 f4 and 600 f5.6! Here's some data I've archived off the www since release of the 300 PF in 2015, and then the 500 PF in 2018. I'd shared these elsewhere in forums (but pertinent here and hopefully Nikon reads these threads). Nikon's 2018 patent lists a 400, 500, 600 PF of 22cm, 28cm & 33cm length, respectively. All 3 designs are a f5.6. These lengths include the 46.5mm throat depth of the F-Nikon mount, which implies a Z-mount PF telephoto might be nearly 2" shorter
nikonrumors.com

The latest Nikon patents: 400mm, 500mm and 600mm f/5.6 Phase Fresnel (PF) lenses - Nikon Rumors

Nikon filed a patent (P2018-17857A) in Japan for a 400mm f/5.6 (22cm long), 500mm f/5.6 (28cm long) and 600mm f/5.6 (33cm long) full frame Phase Fresnel (PF) lenses. Addition information on Nikon Phase Fresnel (PF) lenses can be found here: Nikon’s Phase Fresnel (PF) lens explained As of today...
nikonrumors.com nikonrumors.com

The patent describes a 600 f5.6E of TL, and note a 108mm window which might seriously stress out production/quality control to mass produce such a wide Phase-fresnel element. But if it is possible to mass produce, then we could see a 600 f5.6E PF of the approx dimensions of 330mm x 112mm. It could weigh <2kg using fluorite as well as PF and ED elements, but it may turn out a bit heavier. In an interview soon after releasing the 300 PF, three of its designers admitted R&D goals were challenging to meet. However, they succeeded again with the widely popular 500 PF. As already noted above, there appear to been challenges in yield of the foundry making the 90mm diameter phase-fresnel elements, but availabilities of this prime have improved since 2019 (when shortages and delays fanned many forum threads!).

dc.watch.impress.co.jp

小型化と高性能化を両立 ニコン「AF-S NIKKOR 300mm f/4E PF ED VR」 位相フレネルレンズの仕組みとは?

ニコンが1月に発売した「AF-S NIKKOR 300mm f/4E PF ED VR」は、従来から大幅に小型化を図ったと同時に画質も向上させた35mmフルサイズ用の超望遠レンズ。実に14年ぶりとなったリニューアルでは、ニッコールレンズで初めてとなる「位相フレネルレンズ」を採用した。
dc.watch.impress.co.jp dc.watch.impress.co.jp

It also has been mentioned by a Nikon engineer they had planned PF camera lenses earlier: “….Mr. Fujie was active in many fields, not only with photographic lenses, but also with viewfinder optics and device optics. He also took the initiative in the development of PF lenses, though none of these lenses were ever released.” https://imaging.nikon.com/history/story/0057/index.htm
 
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I really have come to consider the 400 f4 PF should be one of Nikon's top priorities..... And then why not follow up with 600 f5.6 and 800 f8 PF in Z-mount [ie 100mm window]?!?

In phase-fresnel R&D we can be certain about two data points in lens allometry (weights, outer dimensions, filters etc) : 300 f4E PF = 755g, 148 x 89mm; 77mm filter on 75mm window, and 500 f5.6E PF = 1460g 237 x 106mm, 95mm filter on 89.3mm window. So it follows a 400 f4E FL needs a 100mm window, and 105mm filter thread [a rear 40.5 filter slot makes far better sense as in the standard super-telephotos].... Nikon's 400 f5.6 PF patent lists 22mm OL.

Let's face it, if they did a 400 f5.6 it's hard to make it shorter nor lighter than the 300 PF + TC14 [ie 420 f5.6 [a great little combo with superb IQ, as is a 510 f6.7 with TC17 ]. In contrast, a 400 f4 has a decent Teleconverter Factor - the TCF - going out to 800 f8, which should AF rather decently on a MILC / hybrid DSLR. I say this judging from the 500 PF + TC14 III on a Z7 or even D850; and I have pushed the 500 PF with TC17 on a Z7 - and obviously on D780 in L'view. In any case, with TC14 on a 400 f4 the effective reach of 560 f5.6 edges close to a 600 f5.6. Albeit, the latter will probably beat it on IQ; equally, extending 600 f5.6 PF+TC14 to a 840 f8 will also have better IQ than 400 f4+TC2 III.

These well known IQ penalties with the F-Nikon system could well be eclipsed by the new pair of Z Teleconverters. So to conclude on choosing between 400 f4 or 600 f4 (?) Let's consider several factors - including (1) the Z winds of change, (2) manufacturing constraints in PF technology, (3) allometry aka scaling up lens haptics, and (4) above all the market(s) for nifty telephoto lenses. And (5) don't let's forget the swelling demands for airline-friendlier gear that's easier on skeletons and joints...

Above all, the photographer is that much likely to grab the Proverbial Moment if out and about with a Nikkor PF. These have a tendency to be the telephoto one has in one's hand.

Together, they say 400 f4 PF. Dammit, flocks of Birders and herds of Peripatetic wildlifers will stampede to own a 400 f4 PF S Nikkor in Z-mount. [EDITED February 2023, Nikon released the dinky 400 f4E.5 S not PF but a success on key factors ]

Such a prime remains a mere hypothetical fantasy until Nikon releases a credible MILC for action. Seriously, it is nothing less than remarkable how Nikon have failed to consolidate their unique advantage with the 300 PF and 500 PF. Birding is a huge business as are safaris (viruses permitting that is). All this goes to show misleading distortions in their marketing data: ie when will Tokyo stumble to the facts that longer telephotos ain't solely for sports.
 
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Pretty much what has already been said. The PF element is difficult to produce and the larger the size, the more difficult. A 600 PF would likely need some of the same production line as the 500 PF. With the low production of the 500 PF I doubt they could deliver very many 600 PFs without impacting the production of the 500's. OTOH, the introduction of a 500 PF would likely tame demand for the 500 PF as well as send more than a few 500 PFs to the used market. I'd probably be one of them; as good as the 500 PF seems to be, a 600PF would better suit me. At this point, as a dedicated dslr user, I'm not feeling much love from Nikon. The promised firmware upgrade to use CFe cards in the D5, D500 and D850 is at least a year overdue as well as other D5 features that were promised as trickle downs to the D500 and D850. I've accepted that what ever features my new dslr has at the time of release all that I'm going to get.
 
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Nikon Rumors, where the 500 PF 1st caught my eye as a rumoured lens, had a rumour some time back about the 600 f/5.6 PF. I have been following that site for many years and find it quite reliable, rumour wise. :giggle: So I think, stick it out. If you are really pining for a 400 f/4, Canon makes a beaut carry all over one :rolleyes:o_O
Pining for a 400? The 80-400 kicks butt, extremely sharp, heavier than the 500PF and zooms too.
If the depth of your pocket is not a problem, the 180-400 F/4 is a beaut, I believe.
 
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I use my 80-400 G a great deal. It's not as sharp @400 but delivers very well at decent subject distances. The zoom flexibility is a valuable asset, for larger mammals especially.
Yah I also follow NR, but ignore the comments section, it being too troll ridden. The 2018 rumours/reports of the 500 PF probably did more for Nikon's first wave of sales (after all, it's probably only Nikon's marketing dept that could successfully hide a promo video for this lens from the public!!). It's taken them months to catch up apparently with 500 PF production.

And apparently, Nikon has also been surprised by unexpected demands for the a few of their other new lenses. The 18-200 DX was also backlogged some years back. Grays of Westminster, London, hinted the 180-400 fE TC14 has proved a surprise seller too. A few weeks, back Orms in CT had this on "Special' but still out of my range. I've tested a copy in Uk and it sure is one splendid optic, and at 3.5kg.

yet another influence on a future PF prime is the 100-400 S in the Z Roadmap. This will be an interesting zoom, and another excellent optic given what we've seen since Z day 2018. If this is fast, ie f4 then Nikon may shy clear of a similar PF prime. Nevertheless, a Z-mount only PF telephoto would displease DSLR owners. Personally, I would prefer a F-mount version. As for eclipsing sales of the 500 PF with a 600 f5.6 / 400 f4, it's doubtful Nikon cares. The more NEW lenses they sell the better, and the more affordable Used telephotos sold onward must surely sell more Nikon cameras and keep/attract more clients into the Greater Nikon Ecosystem.

Callie said:
Nikon Rumors, where the 500 PF 1st caught my eye as a rumoured lens, had a rumour some time back about the 600 f/5.6 PF. I have been following that site for many years and find it quite reliable, rumour wise. :giggle: So I think, stick it out. If you are really pining for a 400 f/4, Canon makes a beaut carry all over one :rolleyes:o_O
Pining for a 400? The 80-400 kicks butt, extremely sharp, heavier than the 500PF and zooms too.
If the depth of your pocket is not a problem, the 180-400 F/4 is a beaut, I believe.
Click to expand...
 
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fcotterill said:
I'm another fervent 400 f4 PF "Hoper" :):D and would sell off a granny or two to afford both a 400 f4 and 600 f5.6!

The patent describes a 600 f5.6E of TL, and note a 107mm window which might seriously stress out production/quality control to mass produce such a wide Phase-fresnel element. But if it is possible mass produce, then we could see a 600 f5.6E PF of approx dimensions of 330mm x 112mm. It could weigh <2kg using fluorite as well as PF and ED elements, but it may turn out a bit heavier. In an interview soon after releasing the 300 PF, three of its designers admitted R&D goals were challenging to meet. However, they succeeded again with the widely popular 500 PF. As already noted above, there appear to been challenges in yield of the foundry making the 90mm diameter phase-fresnel elements, but availabilities of this prime have improved since 2019 (when shortages and delays fanned many forum threads!).

dc.watch.impress.co.jp

小型化と高性能化を両立 ニコン「AF-S NIKKOR 300mm f/4E PF ED VR」 位相フレネルレンズの仕組みとは?

ニコンが1月に発売した「AF-S NIKKOR 300mm f/4E PF ED VR」は、従来から大幅に小型化を図ったと同時に画質も向上させた35mmフルサイズ用の超望遠レンズ。実に14年ぶりとなったリニューアルでは、ニッコールレンズで初めてとなる「位相フレネルレンズ」を採用した。
dc.watch.impress.co.jp dc.watch.impress.co.jp

It also has been mentioned by a Nikon engineer they had planned PF camera lenses earlier: “….Mr. Fujie was active in many fields, not only with photographic lenses, but also with viewfinder optics and device optics. He also took the initiative in the development of PF lenses, though none of these lenses were ever released.” https://imaging.nikon.com/history/story/0057/index.htm
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Thank you for all of this. Yes, what he said, or quoted, re the difficulty of manufacturing a 600mm f5.6 PF lens.

As for a 400mm f4 version, it has been pointed out in this forum or another one (I get mixed up) that the Canon version of such a lens has not been as rousing a success as one might have thought. In today's market, 400mm has become a kind of neither fish nor fowl focal length, not quite long enough for birds and longer than needed for say, sports. That said, one can reply that Canon and Sony's 100-400mm lenses are huge successes, and in its own (soon to be released?) version, Nikon had better match these for performance without pricing the lens too high.

As for a 200-600mm., if Nikon just is able to reproduce Sony's performance and ergonomics, i.e., internal focusing and zooming, attractive size and weight, etc., and also prices the lens reasonably, this will be a great lens.
 
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GrandNagus50 said:
...As for a 400mm f4 version, it has been pointed out in this forum or another one (I get mixed up) that the Canon version of such a lens has not been as rousing a success as one might have thought. In today's market, 400mm has become a kind of neither fish nor fowl focal length, not quite long enough for birds and longer than needed for say, sports...

As for a 200-600mm., if Nikon just is able to reproduce Sony's performance and ergonomics, i.e., internal focusing and zooming, attractive size and weight, etc., and also prices the lens reasonably, this will be a great lens.
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You're spot on with the 400mm comments. I suspect the only reason they sell as many of the f2.8 version as they do is because the optics are so amazing that they take a TC very well and more or less double as a 560mm f4. For people who shoot both sports and wildlife they work. And the IQ possible with the native lens is unparalleled. When I've seen used ones for sale at fire sale prices it's been awfully tempting. I've had to really tax the logical side of my brain to resist the temptation. Decisions (unfortunately) made somewhat easier also by my limited bank account.

I recently had the opportunity to try out a Sony 200-600. It's a nice piece of glass. I'm curious to see if Nikon trumps them by taking advantage of the large diameter of the S mount and making their version of the 200-600 either a fixed f5.6 or variable f4-5.6. They've bet the farm on the S mount so you'd like to think they'll maximize the advantages of it.
 
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Perhaps my take of the 400 f2.8E are biased by shooting a range of subjects from large mammals through to small birds in Africa. I've read of more than a couple of successful wildlife Pros who traded in their 600 f4 for (1) the MFD and exquisite bokeh at f2.8 besides the low light advantages. And its Sui Generis does indeed place it in a unique niche with all 3 TCs - thus unmatched TCFactor out to 800 f5.6 with very good IQ.

Bottom line is these exotic telephotos are designed primarily for sports Pros, with whom the 400 is very popular as their primary lens.

It is widely agreed, the obvious advantages of 600mm make it better for bird photography, but one often needs 800mm or 1000m for tight framing of a small passerid.

As for a 400 f4 PF, apparently the Canon used a distinctly different technology (according to Lenstip) and it is somewhat on the large size and expensive.
Extrapolating from the weight (and window) of their very successful 300 f4 (75mm) and 500 f5.6 (89.3mm), Nikon should still be able to tamp down the mass of a 400 f4 to well under 2kg: measuring at least 100mm wide (~110m) x 280mm. Many of us will find it ideally suited in a light rig - notably with a MILC - and with TCs.
 
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