New Rule - No More Brand Bashing / Bragging Threads

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Effective immediately: threads started with the sole purpose of telling others why you or someone else has either switched to one brand (or gotten rid of one brand) in favor of another will no longer be allowed. They inevitably end up starting a fight and they serve no real purpose. It frankly doesn't matter if you or someone else has decided to move from brand A to brand B and it is making coming to the forum an unpleasant experience for many members - myself included.

Going forward, when those kinds of threads pop up, I'm going to delete them. Anytime I see pre-existing threads that are violating this rule I will lock them.

However, this doesn't apply to asking legitimate questions about what brand is better for what activity or what people's specific experiences are with a given brand. If you have legitimate questions or observations, they are always welcome. What we're trying to avoid are threads that instigate conflict and that do not really add anything to the conversation other than to help rationalize your own purchases.

Finally, remember to keep a civil discourse when discussing various aspects of different brands and their features. Remember that this forum is intended to teach and help others with using their gear and sometimes making purchase decisions. Each photographer is different and has different needs and that idea needs to be respected with every response.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Steve
Thanks for taking this step. I have abandoned a different forum for exactly these reasons and was very happy with the atmosphere here. I don't contribute often but I check in daily and have learned a lot!
 
I’ve been reading BCG for awhile and held back on registering and was wondering if it’s really a better place than other forums. The past couple weeks was really disgusting with the bashing and meaningless arguments.
I’m now registered and want to say thanks Steve for showing that this place is yours and you set the rules.
 
Thanks. Threads comparing brands are not interesting anyway. I am interested in ways to improve and understand photography. I am interested in both the Z6ii and Z9 and the options they have but mostly understanding ways to enjoy photography.
 
Strongly support this move and keeping the focus on the photos, how we captured them and how to better use the equipment and tools we have to improve our skills and captures. Thank you for helping us keep on the correct topics. Many of us have been caught up in such a thread and wish we had not.
 
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Thank you, Steve. I very strongly support this decision.

I’m new here—I arrived recently from Fred Miranda, as I understood this to be “where the wildlife photographers are”, and I was hoping to have focused conversations on this particular discussion. It took me just a couple weeks to personally swear-off the General Photo forum for anything more consequential than a thread like the recent one on wrist straps, because I saw every conversation involving cameras turn into “you should buy this instead.”

It’s unfortunate to have banned topics of conversation in any forum, but this one has sucked all the oxygen out of the forum, with conversations that ranged from navel-gazing, to judgmental, to passive-aggressive, to downright acrimonious.

I think we’ll all do better with the slightest guard rail on the forum, and I appreciate your light tough approach. I’m sure it was a very difficult decision, but it will make a big difference for those of us who want to discuss wildlife photography without the constant drum beat of brand evangelism.
 
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“So, DSLR users, relax: your cameras still take fine photographs. Mirrorless users, you don't need to keep chasing the fastest model: your current version still takes fine photographs.“ - Thom Hogan. Just never understood any of the mine’s better than your’s nonsense, so we’ll done Steve for putting a lid on it.
 
Ima gonna agree with the rest of ya'll…'bout time. Everybody has different needs, wants, likes and dislikes and given how much better tech has gotten over the years I think we can all safely agree that the real differences between the brands at any particular price point are pretty minimal and even the worst of the brands at a price point is still pretty darn good. Same with the DLSR vs MILC arguments…although most of us have mostly moved on it's really more a matter of the DSLR lines are likely not going to see any new bodies, mounts, or firmware updates simply because of the improved tech.
 
The problem with this is the people who have issues with different brands being compared are still going to have issues even during an honest comparison when their brand of choice isn't the top dog.

As soon as someone starts giving their opinion on gear someone is going to say that is brand bashing or brand bragging.

So is all gear discussion just not allowed now? Because someone is always going to have an alternate opinion.

I come to this forum and FM to read about and discuss gear. It is hard for me not to compare to other brands because I've owned pretty much every top end camera from the big three over the past 10 years. Hopefully that will still be allowed given that I won't go off on a rant in favor of one particular brand.

We shall see.
 
The problem with this is the people who have issues with different brands being compared are still going to have issues even during an honest comparison when their brand of choice isn't the top dog.

As soon as someone starts giving their opinion on gear someone is going to say that is brand bashing or brand bragging.

So is all gear discussion just not allowed now? Because someone is always going to have an alternate opinion.

I come to this forum and FM to read about and discuss gear. It is hard for me not to compare to other brands because I've owned pretty much every top end camera from the big three over the past 10 years. Hopefully that will still be allowed given that I won't go off on a rant in favor of one particular brand.

We shall see.
I concur. I actually don't think I've seen any brand bashing here per se but I have seen people get very defensive when someone expresses a preference for other brands (let's be honest, it mostly happens when that preference is Sony) or for mirrorless in general. I think it's because this has primarily been - and primarily probably still is - a forum filled with Nikon users (that's how I got here). Maybe it doesn't matter though whether it's literally brand bashing or not if it creates contention. Perhaps we need separate Sony and Nikon boards along with the general photography discussion one?
 
T
Effective immediately: threads started with the sole purpose of telling others why you or someone else has either switched to one brand (or gotten rid of one brand) in favor of another will no longer be allowed. They inevitably end up starting a fight and they serve no real purpose. It frankly doesn't matter if you or someone else has decided to move from brand A to brand B and it is making coming to the forum an unpleasant experience for many members - myself included.

Going forward, when those kinds of threads pop up, I'm going to delete them. Anytime I see pre-existing threads that are violating this rule I will lock them.

However, this doesn't apply to asking legitimate questions about what brand is better for what activity or what people's specific experiences are with a given brand. If you have legitimate questions or observations, they are always welcome. What we're trying to avoid are threads that instigate conflict and that do not really add anything to the conversation other than to help rationalize your own purchases.

Finally, remember to keep a civil discourse when discussing various aspects of different brands and their features. Remember that this forum is intended to teach and help others with using their gear and sometimes making purchase decisions. Each photographer is different and has different needs and that idea needs to be respected with every response.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Steve
Unfortunately you had to do this. some people like to "brag" or "bash" to feed their insecurity. I had a friend how kept telling me that which ever lens he was shooting at the moment was the sharpest lens he had ever owned.

I guess it is time to send the child back to their rooms for a time out.
 
I concur. I actually don't think I've seen any brand bashing here per se but I have seen people get very defensive when someone expresses a preference for other brands (let's be honest, it mostly happens when that preference is Sony) or for mirrorless in general. I think it's because this has primarily been - and primarily probably still is - a forum filled with Nikon users (that's how I got here). Maybe it doesn't matter though whether it's literally brand bashing or not if it creates contention. Perhaps we need separate Sony and Nikon boards along with the general photography discussion one?
My take is it was more brand bragging than bashing, but some of that bragging contained some bashing, maybe unintentionally, which created the contention. It’s not someone expressing a preference of one brand over another, but how that is preference is phrased. You can see defensiveness on all sides, just look what happens when someone stated something negative about Sony’s ergonomics, colors, menus. It’s natural to respond if you don’t agree with one’s findings or to confirm the findings if they match yours. As long as it is done civilly we should all be able to get along without issue. I don’t think there needs to be a separation by brand as a lot of things apply to every brand.
 
The problem with this is the people who have issues with different brands being compared are still going to have issues even during an honest comparison when their brand of choice isn't the top dog.

I come to this forum and FM to read about and discuss gear. It is hard for me not to compare to other brands because I've owned pretty much every top end camera from the big three over the past 10 years. Hopefully that will still be allowed given that I won't go off on a rant in favor of one particular brand.
If someone is asking questions about gear that they own what benefit can there be in bringing up features of equipment from another manufacturer that they don't own? "Oh sorry, your camera can't do that. You should have purchased this other one by a different brand." If someone specifically asks for a comparison of one versus the other sure that's valuable information. But what is objectionable(and commonly happens here) is when people ask about specific cameras/lenses and get unsolicited input about equipment of another brand. That is a common way that things go off the rails in discussions. Once that door is open everyone chimes in being offensive/defensive and it ratchets up.
 
If someone is asking questions about gear that they own what benefit can there be in bringing up features of equipment from another manufacturer that they don't own? "Oh sorry, your camera can't do that. You should have purchased this other one by a different brand." If someone specifically asks for a comparison of one versus the other sure that's valuable information. But what is objectionable(and commonly happens here) is when people ask about specific cameras/lenses and get unsolicited input about equipment of another brand. That is a common way that things go off the rails in discussions. Once that door is open everyone chimes in being offensive/defensive and it ratchets up.

Thanks, Dan. I was struggling with how to quantify the difference between simply comparing and the aspersion-casting we've seen here.

This is probably a bad analogy to make, but I suspect many people have also personally seen it so perhaps it's helpful. Have you known someone that--no matter what the topic--tries to turn the conversation "dirty"? You could be talking about boats, or cameras, or even the weather, and the person can be trusted to interject an innuendo, turn of phrase, or anecdote that steers the conversation towards something lascivious or otherwise inappropriate? Whenever this person shows up, everyone dreads how they're going to steer the conversation off the rails, but they aren't technically doing anything wrong.

That's what this gear focus/worship/evangelism feels like to me. Someone could ask "how do I prevent focus from jumping to the background with my Z7II?", and you can guarantee someone will offer "maybe there's some setting you can change, cause my A1 never does that!". Few threads recover from such a slow-pitch troll.

I really wish I knew the technical name for this phenomena, because it's obviously not unique to these forums, and it's a social plague that destroys constructive conversation and civil discourse.
 
My thoughts? It is a welcome change. We don't need more specific "rules".
I plan to just take a deep breath and see how things shake out. I am sure Steve will tweak things further if it becomes necessary.
 
Thanks @Steve for this initiative. However, I still hope that the vast majority of the people here stay as cool and relaxed as they used to be since I joined the forum. Otherwise this rule just means additional off-topic work for you and your wife while taking care of this forum :unsure:.
This in mind, I regard it as pretty disrespectful, if people forget about civilized behaviour and cause unnecessary work load for people that are kind and enthusiastic enough to provide us with this platform while being phtotographers themsevles. Thus the time that you invest in running this place is to be appreciated even more.

Lots of the things happening in the world show pretty drastically that collective rationality is IMHO an illusion for mankind. Its reduction usually goes exponentionally with the number of people in a group and the figure where the decline starts to take up speed ist getting smaller and smaller. So, IMHO we are priviledged to experience a pretty high level of this collective rationality here in this community and if we can keep this level despite of a growing number of members by remembering the basic ruulex of civilized communication, this would be great. Thus it will not only be a great place to share knowledge and experiences with others, but also a kind of emotional recreation area for people that have been driven mad by the common culture in the "normal" - so-called - social media.
 
I, along with a number of other members here, are also members at another photo forum which was brand specific in its founding. But it turns out that a number of folks there are now shooting with other equipment or using equipment from multiple brands and nobody seems to care in the least. I suspect that the friendships that have been formed there are far more important than the gear, and I am hoping that something similar will further take root here, albeit Steve's forum may have a larger membership, and that does present different challenges and opportunities.

--Ken
 
I have to admit…on further review the last a few posts that talked about discussing merits make sense…and really we don't want to (I think) stop respectful discussions about something that say a Nikon can do that Sony or Canon can't do or not as well or different or something that one of the other brands does better. It's a lot like porn…we all know it when we see it and everybody needs to self police them selves so as not to take the discussion to the toilet. However…Steve's point is valid…but where does he or we draw the line between a reasonable discussion and chest thumping or brand bashing? For instance…and even Steve has said this I think…the A1 is a little better at keeper rate for BIF than the Z9…but is saying that brand bashing? Done nicely…if it's a fact then it's a fact. OTOH, Nikon his historically been praised for having 'better' color fidelity…is saying so bashing or chest thumping? Dunno…but I'm glad I don't have to figure it out…and I think if we all play nice with the other children like we learned in kindergarten mostly it will be a non problem.
 
"No loitering" signs do nothing to stop disrespectful salesmen, but it keeps most at bay. Perhaps this edict will do the same. At least at this point everyone knows it's not acceptable behavior.
 
I have to admit…on further review the last a few posts that talked about discussing merits make sense…and really we don't want to (I think) stop respectful discussions about something that say a Nikon can do that Sony or Canon can't do or not as well or different or something that one of the other brands does better. It's a lot like porn…we all know it when we see it and everybody needs to self police them selves so as not to take the discussion to the toilet. However…Steve's point is valid…but where does he or we draw the line between a reasonable discussion and chest thumping or brand bashing? For instance…and even Steve has said this I think…the A1 is a little better at keeper rate for BIF than the Z9…but is saying that brand bashing? Done nicely…if it's a fact then it's a fact. OTOH, Nikon his historically been praised for having 'better' color fidelity…is saying so bashing or chest thumping? Dunno…but I'm glad I don't have to figure it out…and I think if we all play nice with the other children like we learned in kindergarten mostly it will be a non problem.
What you describe here basically says no change needed. Do we all agree on what pornography is? I doubt it. Do we all agree on what brand bashing is? Most certainly not. I suspect most of us think that criticizing brands other than those we own is justified or we would be using those other brands. "Done nicely if it's a fact then it's a fact"? WTH does that mean? Virtually everything that's discussed other than hard specifications about equipment is opinion, not fact. And even specs can be used to slant conversations. Play nice in kindergarten? Some kids come home with black eyes.
 
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