New Rule - No More Brand Bashing / Bragging Threads

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StephenP

Member
Supporting Member
I'm not just a wildlife/BIF photographer. Maybe 20% of the time. I enjoy it enough to try to learn and become better at it. That's what brought me here, but it's become less enjoyable.

Thanks, Steve!!!
 

Dave Wo

Member
Bravo Steve! I really enjoy the forum and it was sad to see it heading that direction at times. Glad you decided to take that action. Technology will not stand still and that's a given. The latest gear does not guarantee perfection but it's always fun to see what manufacturers have released. Bashing has no place here. Keep up the good work Steve.
 

Steve

Admin
Staff member
Supporting Member
Thread starter
Just to clarify a bit - genuine gear discussion is still welcome as are civil comparisons. The main thing is that we want to avoid threads that are simply "I or someone famous" switched brands because it always spirals down. However, if you have a genuine question about Sony vs. Nikon vs. Canon (etc), feel free to post it.
 

SNEDDERS6666

Active member
Effective immediately: threads started with the sole purpose of telling others why you or someone else has either switched to one brand (or gotten rid of one brand) in favor of another will no longer be allowed. They inevitably end up starting a fight and they serve no real purpose. It frankly doesn't matter if you or someone else has decided to move from brand A to brand B and it is making coming to the forum an unpleasant experience for many members - myself included.

Going forward, when those kinds of threads pop up, I'm going to delete them. Anytime I see pre-existing threads that are violating this rule I will lock them.

However, this doesn't apply to asking legitimate questions about what brand is better for what activity or what people's specific experiences are with a given brand. If you have legitimate questions or observations, they are always welcome. What we're trying to avoid are threads that instigate conflict and that do not really add anything to the conversation other than to help rationalize your own purchases.

Finally, remember to keep a civil discourse when discussing various aspects of different brands and their features. Remember that this forum is intended to teach and help others with using their gear and sometimes making purchase decisions. Each photographer is different and has different needs and that idea needs to be respected with every response.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Steve
Excellent decision and stance. Well done Steve.
 

PhilM

Well-known member
I'm not sure how I missed this thread until now, but may be some of the best news I've read online in quite some time.

I'd like to offer a very sincere "THANK YOU" to Steve. :)
 

Pistnbroke

Active member
Well I wrote a thread saying I was not moving from 4 x D850 to Z having retired and had downgraded to a D810 as it did all I needed . It got locked. How is that offensive in any way? How is it bragging or bashing ?? I give up.
 

Craig R

New member
Steve, Thank you!This has been one of the biggest hesitations for me to join groups. We all have our preferences and we all love photography... it's nice to just " Focus" on the love of photography and the ability to help others
 

Marion Anstis

Active member
Effective immediately: threads started with the sole purpose of telling others why you or someone else has either switched to one brand (or gotten rid of one brand) in favor of another will no longer be allowed. They inevitably end up starting a fight and they serve no real purpose. It frankly doesn't matter if you or someone else has decided to move from brand A to brand B and it is making coming to the forum an unpleasant experience for many members - myself included.

Going forward, when those kinds of threads pop up, I'm going to delete them. Anytime I see pre-existing threads that are violating this rule I will lock them.

However, this doesn't apply to asking legitimate questions about what brand is better for what activity or what people's specific experiences are with a given brand. If you have legitimate questions or observations, they are always welcome. What we're trying to avoid are threads that instigate conflict and that do not really add anything to the conversation other than to help rationalize your own purchases.

Finally, remember to keep a civil discourse when discussing various aspects of different brands and their features. Remember that this forum is intended to teach and help others with using their gear and sometimes making purchase decisions. Each photographer is different and has different needs and that idea needs to be respected with every response.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Steve
That's great Steve, much better to have just a learning experience when we come here. Being very new to mirrorless and the Z9, can you or anyone please comment on whether centre-weighted metering (small or standard) is helpful for bird photography (single or maybe two birds - not a flock) rather than Matrix, which I have recently found puts more weight on the background?
 

FB101

Well-known member
Just to clarify a bit - genuine gear discussion is still welcome as are civil comparisons. The main thing is that we want to avoid threads that are simply "I or someone famous" switched brands because it always spirals down. However, if you have a genuine question about Sony vs. Nikon vs. Canon (etc), feel free to post it.

So, how has this been working for the past month?

From my vantage point, BCG has reverted back to a Nikon echo chamber with a single brand focus and on the rare occasion where somebody new asks for input on something non-Nikon the answer invariably is “I’ve not shot X, but here is why the z9 walks on water”. The people who have multi brand experience, genuine hands-on experience, don’t post anymore, except for you of course, and I wonder how long it will take before someone shuts down this “Steve guy who thinks the A1 does a few things better”.

To be clear, the policy is not at fault, I think it’s very respectable and sound. The issue is that even before the policy was implemented, genuine gear discussion and civil comparisons weren‘t welcome, and now they are simply gone.

Don’t beat yourself up over it, I don’t think a single Internet forum has managed to pull it off and this one came the closest I ever saw but in the end, single thought is too powerful of an inertia. Even your shooting 3 brands for a while (or now 2) and clearly explaining each brand’s strengths and gaps wasnt enough to enable breaking away from that gravitational pull towards “one happy family dogma”.

i sure hope it won’t stop you from continuing to put out your tremendous educational material for the “others” but as you often say, time is the limit, and if those books don’t sell well because this is not a welcoming community for other brands, you’ll probably need to adjust and the circle will be complete. At that point, we’ve all, completely lost.
 

DavidT

Well-known member
Supporting Member
So, how has this been working for the past month?

From my vantage point, BCG has reverted back to a Nikon echo chamber with a single brand focus and on the rare occasion where somebody new asks for input on something non-Nikon the answer invariably is “I’ve not shot X, but here is why the z9 walks on water”. The people who have multi brand experience, genuine hands-on experience, don’t post anymore, except for you of course, and I wonder how long it will take before someone shuts down this “Steve guy who thinks the A1 does a few things better”.

To be clear, the policy is not at fault, I think it’s very respectable and sound. The issue is that even before the policy was implemented, genuine gear discussion and civil comparisons weren‘t welcome, and now they are simply gone.

Don’t beat yourself up over it, I don’t think a single Internet forum has managed to pull it off and this one came the closest I ever saw but in the end, single thought is too powerful of an inertia. Even your shooting 3 brands for a while (or now 2) and clearly explaining each brand’s strengths and gaps wasnt enough to enable breaking away from that gravitational pull towards “one happy family dogma”.

i sure hope it won’t stop you from continuing to put out your tremendous educational material for the “others” but as you often say, time is the limit, and if those books don’t sell well because this is not a welcoming community for other brands, you’ll probably need to adjust and the circle will be complete. At that point, we’ve all, completely lost.
I haven’t commented on all of this but I will now and won’t bother again as it won’t matter.

I’ve noticed the same thing. I kind of chuckled recently if the Z9 wasn’t out there wouldn’t be hardly any posts. Case in point as of this post the first page has 25 threads, 19 are Nikon in subject line and 11 of them are specific to the Z9. If you click on non Nikon subject lines most of the remaining ones are discussing Nikon. Talk about a major shift in one direction. It makes this forum less benificial unless you’re a Nikon shooter and even if you are unless you’re using the Z9 it doesn’t help you much either.

I’m sure I’ll get lit on fire for this but in my prospective it was the Nikon folks who went off the deep end which is to be expected when they are in the majority.

I sure never wanted a flame war and mostly tried to avoid but it’s funny when I did gear updates years ago I fed off the Nikon brand loyalist and their bashing anything but Nikon especially Sony so I never looked at Sony. That was a mistake and that happened because I listened to the echo chamber like we now have here and didn’t think and try for myself. Once I did it was very enlightening.

To me use what works for you but don’t defend your loyalty if you’ve never tried anything else. It’s the reason Steve’s opinion to me matters and maybe a couple others and the rest is mostly noise.

Maybe this is why other forums separate brands into their own forums to avoid most of this but allow open and free conversations.
 
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bleirer

Well-known member
Supporting Member
I haven't noticed any issues since the new policy except for one user that always goes out of their way to find fault with Canon, but they do it in a subtle and a civil discourse kind of way. Otherwise I think it is human nature to defend and proseletyze for the gear one owns, nobody that I've read has been course about it. I've not seen any personal attacks. It also makes sense that people come here because of Steve's main website, which is Nikon centered.

I've been trying to introduce topics which are not Nikon centric. But they don't get much participation. For example recently I started topics on telephoto compression and another on diffraction with a couple of responses but mostly me trying to bump it along.


Maybe if more of us introduced non brand topics we could get something going. There is plenty on photography to talk about.
 
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DavidT

Well-known member
Supporting Member
I haven't noticed any issues since the new policy except for one user that always goes out of their way to find fault with Canon, but they do it in a subtle and a civil discourse kind of way. Otherwise I think it is human nature to defend and proseletyze for the gear one owns, nobody that I've read has been course about it. I've not seen any personal attacks. It also makes sense that people come here because of Steve's main website, which is Nikon centered.

I've been trying to introduce topics which are not Nikon centric. But they don't get much participation. For example recently I started topics on telephoto compression and another on diffraction with a couple of responses but mostly me trying to bump it along.


Maybe if more of us introduced non brand topics we could get something going.
I’ve done the same thing and you’re right if it’s not gear it doesn’t get much discussion.
 

sh1209

Well-known member
Supporting Member
I personally think discussing brands has great value, as well as discussing shortcomings and positive aspects of gear. I did recently within the last couple months or so make a thread stating I had switched brands. I never once came across as bragging or demeaning to any other brand for that matter, nor would I. Honestly in my situation if it hadn’t been for different gear discussions on here, then I would’ve never tried the brand that I ended up switching to. I’m not even going to discuss what brand it is or what brand I switched from because it’s irrelevant. The other brand to me he had too many shortcomings and the one I switched to is a much better fit for my situation. I agree with some of the post’s earlier today in the regards that if this forum becomes solely aimed at one brand, then it is it is of no benefit to open minded wildlife photographers such as myself. I hope that it doesn’t come to that because I do enjoy being on here and feel like I’ve made many good friends on here. I can’t tell you how many times that I have been attacked on here for stating an empirical fact with my experience especially with the Z9 for absolutely no reason. Most of the time I just let it roll off and sometimes I have hit back. Anymore I don’t pay those threads any mind and just mind my own business because it’s not worth conflict. If we as grown men and women can’t have a discussion about different views, opinions or brands for that matter, then something is bad wrong! This is just my opinion and doesn’t amount to a hill of beans but it’s just the way I feel.
 

sh1209

Well-known member
Supporting Member
I would also like to add that, I as well think it would be beneficial for there to be different threads for different brands. This way if someone has a brand specific question, they can speak to like-minded folks without offending anyone. I am honestly to the point on here, that I am fearful of even asking a question about Sony specific questions because of the potential blowback I will get.
 

DRwyoming

Moderator
Supporting Member
I am honestly to the point on here, that I am fearful of even asking a question about Sony specific questions because of the potential blowback I will get.
Sorry to hear that.

Just as a reminder there is no policy against brand comparisons or feature comparisons or questions about any brand of photo gear. It's a shame that @Steve's policy about threads initiated solely for the purpose of saying someone switched brands has been interpreted by some as a ban on brand discussions or feature differences or feature educational questions for any brand of photo gear.

If you have questions on Sony, Canon, Olympus or any brand of photo gear and how to get the most out of it I'd encourage you to post those questions as there are users here, including Steve, who shoot with the various brands and can likely help. Hopefully the responses to any thread like that stay civil but there's a lot of good experience on these boards and it would be a shame not to share that knowledge.
 
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Hut

_
This new "rule" came out when I reposted the Bayou Josh video that honestly wasn't even bragging or bashing. It was just a video from a former Nikon Youtuber explaining why he started using Sony (without any exaggeration or false claims). Which some of us can relate too. Moderators could have kept the off topic complainers out of that thread but instead chose to delete it. The only semi-valid complaint was a criticism of the video capabilities, which was discussed and shown to be an incorrect criticism. All other complaints given in the thread was that it was being posted at all and of course me being a problem here. The best was the guy that complained about the video then admitted he didn't even watch it. 🤡
 
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bleirer

Well-known member
Supporting Member
This new "rule" came out when I reposted the Bayou Josh video that honestly wasn't even bragging or bashing. It was just a video from a former Nikon Youtuber explaining why he started using Sony (without any exaggeration or false claims). Which some of us can relate too. Moderators could have kept the off topic complainers out of that thread but instead chose to delete it. The only valid complaint given in the thread was that it was being posted at all and of course me being a problem here. The best was the guy that complained about the video then admitted he didn't even watch it.

I remember that thread. I don't think posting the video was the issue, it was the arguing that followed.
 

sh1209

Well-known member
Supporting Member
I still think brand specific sections on here would be beneficial. I’m not saying that in a sarcastic or facetious way but I think it would be easier for people to find brand specific issues/tips instead of combing through the general thread. I also think this would completely or nearly completely do away with any misunderstandings or arguments. I don’t know how big of a task that would be for Steve to do but I’m assuming it wouldn’t be too major. For that matter I think it would even be beneficial to have one thread for video specific topics for folks like myself that are getting more involved in that venture.
 

FB101

Well-known member
Sorry to hear that.

Just as a reminder there is no policy against brand comparisons or feature comparisons or questions about any brand of photo gear. It's a shame that @Steve's policy about threads initiated solely for the purpose of saying someone switched brands has been interpreted by some as a ban on brand discussions or feature differences or feature educational questions for any brand of photo gear.

If you have questions on Sony, Canon, Olympus or any brand of photo gear and how to get the most out of it I'd encourage you to post those questions as there are users here, including Steve, who shoot with the various brands and can likely help. Hopefully the responses to any thread like that stay civil but there's a lot of good experience on these boards and it would be a shame not to share that knowledge.
You are missing the point. The issue of how respectful brand comparison is handled predates the policy - for the most part it’s been treated by the majority as unwelcome and offensive even when it wasn’t. The policy only vindicated the pre-existing attitude, it didn’t create it.

And I too choose to stay silent on gear discussions because of how any divergent view is treated. Not by moderators by the way, but moderators don’t carve out a space where freedom of opinion is welcome either.
 

FB101

Well-known member
I remember that thread. I don't think posting the video was the issue, it was the arguing that followed.
The issue is how the arguing was handled. Shutting down the thread says that a valid opinion on z9 vs a1 is unwelcome. Shutting down anyone who took the discussion into a bashing direction instead would have had the opposite, constructive effect.
It’s easier to just shut down a thread, nobody is singled out, all discussion, valid of offensive is shut down. That’s what‘s happening in the BCG forum as of late. Right now the dialog is being leveled to the lowest common denominator - either the statement agrees with the masses, or it’s unwelcome.

But clearly there are only 5 or 6 of us who care, so no big deal. A forum doesn’t have to accommodate everyone and this one is as vibrant as it gets so it will do fine, in a monochromatic kinda way; but it‘s also a business tool for Steve so he needs to understand the dynamics and implications for him. It’s not good, nor bad, it’s the simple math of business.
 

jeffnles1

Well-known member
Supporting Member
I like to learn about new equipment or even capabilities of equipment I may already own. Learning new things is always good. I think the majority here do not care what equipment someone else uses, if they change from one brand to another or even say they do not like something about brand X or camera Y. I haven't seen much of it on this forum but on others and on "YouTube" there are more than a few people who need to thicken their skin a little. A camera is just a tool. I really like my Bosch Table Saw and my RIKON band saw. I won't get my feelings hurt if someone were to say they were junk and not used by professionals and not meant for serious wood working. I'd be of the mind that everyone has their own opinions and their own definitions of professional. I do think there are some who just like to stir controversy to generate clicks to their channels, there are some who are overly sensitive or insecure about their buying decisions and, as my grandfather used to say, there are people who would stand for an hour and argue with a telephone pole.

Jeff
 

John Navitsky

Well-known member
I’ve noticed the same thing. I kind of chuckled recently if the Z9 wasn’t out there wouldn’t be hardly any posts.
FWIW, that might well change when we see something like an a2 or a1ii or r1, etc. There is a nikon bias for historical reasons it appears, but the other thing is just what's "fresh" at the moment.

And for nikon peeps it's especially the case because there was a lot of pent up desire to move to a new body, but until now they didn't have something compelling enough for a lot of folks, so that means you have a disproportionate number of people adopting/interested.

Guessing it will even out over time.
 

pnbarne

Active member
The latest sales data I have seen shows Sony #1, Canon, Nikon , all of the rest. Personal observation at the refuges I haunt it is Canon, Nikon, Olympus. But the dominant camera is the iPhone and by a whole lot.

So, I wonder if we are not serious enthusiasts talking to each other about things most others don’t really care about.
 

abc123brian

Well-known member
You are missing the point. The issue of how respectful brand comparison is handled predates the policy - for the most part it’s been treated by the majority as unwelcome and offensive even when it wasn’t. The policy only vindicated the pre-existing attitude, it didn’t create it.

And I too choose to stay silent on gear discussions because of how any divergent view is treated. Not by moderators by the way, but moderators don’t carve out a space where freedom of opinion is welcome either.
To me it seems like a misinterpretation of the policy by some of the regular posters. There is no reason different brands cannot be discussed or even a comparison of brands. You commented earlier seeing comments “I’ve not shot X, but here is why the z9 walks on water” but I didn’t see this as much as substitute A1 where you state Z9. Regardless, the policy is in place to stop comments like that. I didn’t shoot Nikon until sometime after joining the forum and have experience with multiple brands. While some people feel the brand they chose is the ”right or only” answer for everyone else, we must all realize that is not the case. So if camera A works better than camera B for you, understand that someone else may have chose camera B because it works better for them. If we all approach each thread that way, there shouldn’t be any issues. I think another issue for many forum members is they had no desire to buy an A1 or Z9 due to the price or other factors and that was that was the suggestion for every post. With the exception of the R6/R5 and sort of the A7iv, there hasn’t been many options for the person looking to replace their DSLR.
 
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