Nikkor 800mm f6.3S PF with Z-TC's for African mammals and Birds

[fcotterill]

My 800 PF arrived early May not long before I left on a long (and long awaited) trip into northern Kruger Nat Park.

I took many more images with the 800 PF than anticipated, which meant the Z9 was mostly glued to this lens. But in retrospect, a 400 f2.8E FL has been my previous workhorse for almost 4 years, and too often has been paired with a TC2 III. In total, this was at least 9000 images on the 800; but, admittedly, I shot several hundred images in some encounters: notably unusual sightings of leopards in their duration and the cats' behaviours.

The late rains accounted for unusually high grass and the mopane woodlands were still in full green leaf, which presented interesting challenges but also opportunities dealing with the vegetation clutter.

There are now many examples shared and published which demonstrate the quality of the 800 S PF, so here are a few examples of situations that dictated much more telephoto-reach beyond what is feasible even with a 800mm lens on a FX body. Note this leopardess image is also cropped. She was on the opposite bank of a wide river, and perhaps I should have used the ZTC2 instead. The ISO's are unavoidably high in many cases, especially early morning or on cloudy days. This is the trade off, for as soon as surfaces begin to warm the heat haze kicks in! The following in this post are all 1120mm with ZTC14, and I'll add some more example below this post.

Bush Squirrel grooming in early morning sun on huge Nyalaberry tree

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Leopardess Poses....

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Hippo Bull displaying

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[fcotterill]

Here are two examples of a situation where a 1600mm f13 combination was essential, by capturing a unique interaction of a male leopard snarling at the basking crocodile.
The leopard fast asleep on the rocks is clearly pushing beyond the limits in distance and also suffers camera shake.

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[fcotterill]

These examples illustrate the value of 800mm for tight crops - even of larger mammals: but beware if the subject suddenly moves closer and breaks the tight crops! A young Limpopo bushbuck ram playfighting on a river bank.

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[fcotterill]

Two more examples of the 800 PF with ZTC14

Tawny Eagle

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Vulture preening in early morning sun

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[agrumpyoldsod]

Fenton - good work - if the Leopard was a Jaguar/Puma and they both in South America then the cat would be feeding. I wonder how often Leopards take on small crocs in Africa. I have seen some reports but these seem to be rare. Leopard Catches Crocodile for Dinner

As shooters with long lenses we all go through phases -- shooting headshots, cataloguing subjects, and then shooting in context leaving space for an editor to place text/and article etc... The 800mm is a very great tool (as you show) and in great light it works very well with ZTC14. But it also shows up heat haze like all long lenses shooting across the savanna and so one has to take time to get as close as our subjects allow, when one can.

 

[fcotterill]

Thanks Andy. Interesting, my photo was taken about 20km upstream of the Shingwedzi Highlevel bridge on a tributary.

Yes, Crocodile is definitely rare prey, and all the African carnivores appear to be instinctively wary of these predators. We saw this particular leopard on 5 different occasions at the same pool. That day he seemed bored and also lazy, and the interaction seemed more of a curious cat behaviour. Most interesting is this facebook post - appended clip - from a private page dedicated to the Leopards of KNP. What is probably the same resident male leopard had a similar encounter with a crocodile at the same pool, about 2 weeks earlier

I did see a couple of years back an image on IG of an Okavango serval carrying a young croc, possibly from a drying pool.

Leopards certainly enjoy a catholic diet. In an unpublished study back in the 1990s from my museum days, we relied on scats and kills in the Matobo Hills, SW Zimbabwe. This region has the highest recorded density of leopards (denser than Greater Kruger even). I's well documented hyrax is over 50% of prey items for this Matobo population, followed by red rock rabbits, Pronolagus and Klipspringers, and the odd lizard and a monitor, Varanus. Two interesting records I picked up were Lesser Galago and Hedgehog. This is interpreted as a opportunistic hunting in the rocky granitic terrain.

 

[luckmurph]

Some great images there, thanks for sharing
Since i got my 800 its been glued to my z9, absolutely love it!
Ive only just got a 1.4tc so still experimenting with that, jurys out if i will get a 2x tc!
Coupled with the z400 these 2 lenses for me make an ideal wildlife combo, going to be selling my 500pf soon!

 

[Charles Loy]

Fantastic 800PF photos, exciting experience

 

[fcotterill]

Some great images there, thanks for sharing
Since i got my 800 its been glued to my z9, absolutely love it!
Ive only just got a 1.4tc so still experimenting with that, jurys out if i will get a 2x tc!
Coupled with the z400 these 2 lenses for me make an ideal wildlife combo, going to be selling my 500pf soon!

Fantastic 800PF photos, exciting experience

Thank You for kind words

 

[fcotterill]

Here are 3 more recent examples, taken in the late afternoon of a Blue Crane, Grus paradisea, preparing to fly off to its roost..... Calling and then preening. I dislike disturbing these birds, and they are a Specially Protected Species in any case (IUCN - Vulnerable): S Africa's National Bird.

Not the ideal setting this, as too distant and its feet are hidden, but hopefully the details in the stunning feathers give some insights into resolving ability of this combination at an extreme subject distance.... When dreaded atmospherics creep in !

In this case, I would have preferred to be closer, but simply unfeasible. I often quote the often quoted saw of the old elephant hunters of yore, "Git as close as you can Sonny, then creep 10 yards closer..."

Z9, 800 PF + TC14. f9 and f11
1:1 Crop and minimal post processing in NX Studio

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[Calson]

Thanks for posting these Fenton. Remarkable to be able to use the 800mm PF with the 2x TC. I could have used this combination in the Pantanal with some of the jaguars.

 

[dasm]

Thank you for sharing these wonderful images and discussing your experience with 800mm. As I plan for our trip to Kenya next summer, every time I see images from that continent, I get excited.

 

[RichF]

Here is one from Kenya this summer. Cropped a lot. Z9, 800 F 6.3, TC 1.4

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[BLev65]

Thanks for sharing Fenton... I really like the image of the bush squirrel.
I am impressed with how well the 800PF performs with a converter... The 800PF, much like the 500PF, opens up so many opportunities. I have one on order but don't expect to take delivery until March or later.

regards,
bruce

 

[RichF]

I put several images in the wildlife section of BCG

 

[Nextlife1]

My 800 PF arrived early May not long before I left on a long (and long awaited) trip into northern Kruger Nat Park.

I took many more images with the 800 PF than anticipated, which meant the Z9 was mostly glued to this lens. But in retrospect, a 400 f2.8E FL has been my previous workhorse for almost 4 years, and too often has been paired with a TC2 III. In total, this was at least 9000 images on the 800; but, admittedly, I shot several hundred images in some encounters: notably unusual sightings of leopards in their duration and the cats' behaviours.

The late rains accounted for unusually high grass and the mopane woodlands were still in full green leaf, which presented interesting challenges but also opportunities dealing with the vegetation clutter.

There are now many examples shared and published which demonstrate the quality of the 800 S PF, so here are a few examples of situations that dictated much more telephoto-reach beyond what is feasible even with a 800mm lens on a FX body. Note this leopardess image is also cropped. She was on the opposite bank of a wide river, and perhaps I should have used the ZTC2 instead. The ISO's are unavoidably high in many cases, especially early morning or on cloudy days. This is the trade off, for as soon as surfaces begin to warm the heat haze kicks in! The following in this post are all 1120mm with ZTC14, and I'll add some more example below this post.

Bush Squirrel grooming in early morning sun on huge Nyalaberry tree


Very curious what other lenses you carried to cover the focal range and whether there were “gaps” that were problematic? Also were you frequently putting on and taking off the TC on the 800 or largely had it on or off most of the time? I am planning to take my 800 to Botswana next year as I really want to do better with birds than in the past but just trying to decide what other lenses to carry. For example, is the gap between the Z100-400 and the Z800 too great so that something in between needs to be carried? Thanks!

 

[Nextlife1]

I put several images in the wildlife section of BCG

Same question for you Rich: Very curious what other lenses you carried to cover the focal range and whether there were “gaps” that were problematic? Also were you frequently putting on and taking off the TC on the 800 or largely had it on or off most of the time? I am planning to take my 800 to Botswana next year as I really want to do better with birds than in the past but just trying to decide what other lenses to carry. For example, is the gap between the Z100-400 and the Z800 too great so that something in between needs to be carried? Thanks!

 

[fcotterill]

When hiking I also carry the 400 f4.5S or 500 PF. Wearing a Raptor photographer's waistcoat helps with its huge poachers pocket to fit this telephoto.

The examples taken in Kruger NP, above, were all from my car. I also had the 180-400 f4E TC14 on a D5, and 70-200 f2.8E FL on a D850.

So no gaps IME between 560 and 800 stand out from this 5 week Kruger trip, but I find 400 can sometimes fall short in reach, for birds particularly, which will need ZTC14. Overall, I've found 400-500/560 is much bigger "leap" on wildlife subjects than 560/600 to 800, but sometimes I have really appreciated the TC14 on the 500 PF, as when stalking this leopard.

To be honest, I'm probably lax about reviewing all the images I've taken at 560mm, as some could probably have benefited from tighter framing ie narrower field of view.

This brings up the only real gap I can identify in the telephoto options of Nikon's Greater Ecosystem. A 300-700 f4/5.6 would be extremely versatile for many situations in wildlife photography. Perhaps it should be a 300-600 f4.8, which will be "TC-Friendly". Even better whatever the magnifications&speed, build in an internal TC14. This would be push its status and price into realm of the 600 f4S TC! And such an exotic zoom would obviously work best with an Internal Zoom mechanism... Topic for its own thread

I add the ZTC14 to the 800 PF only when needed (unless I forget to take it off).

Very curious what other lenses you carried to cover the focal range and whether there were “gaps” that were problematic? Also were you frequently putting on and taking off the TC on the 800 or largely had it on or off most of the time? I am planning to take my 800 to Botswana next year as I really want to do better with birds than in the past but just trying to decide what other lenses to carry. For example, is the gap between the Z100-400 and the Z800 too great so that something in between needs to be carried? Thanks!

 

[ElenaH]

@fcotterill
we have also both 400/2.8 FL and Z800. The last stuck on Z9 of my partner and I somehow inherited 400/2.8.
we tested Z800 against 400FL+2TC on the ISO chart and Z800 was much much better! So, if I use TC then it is mostly 1,4TC on 400FL or on 500PF.
I also noticed that AF of 400FL performs better on D850. On Z9 it struggles sometimes however, after last Z9 firmware update it is much better. The lens 400FL is heavy but it is amazng. I tend even to think that it is better than Z 400 TC but it is only an assumption, we don't have Z 400 TC and couldn't test it.
what I am curious about is how Z 2,0TC is performing? I don't think that 2,0TC is good on Z800 but I also have Z 100-400 and Z 70-200 and I wonder how it will do on those lenses. If that Z TC 2.0 is good at all?

 

[thelordofthelight]

@fcotterill
we have also both 400/2.8 FL and Z800. The last stuck on Z9 of my partner and I somehow inherited 400/2.8.
we tested Z800 against 400FL+2TC on the ISO chart and Z800 was much much better! So, if I use TC then it is mostly 1,4TC on 400FL or on 500PF.
I also noticed that AF of 400FL performs better on D850. On Z9 it struggles sometimes however, after last Z9 firmware update it is much better. The lens 400FL is heavy but it is amazng. I tend even to think that it is better than Z 400 TC but it is only an assumption, we don't have Z 400 TC and couldn't test it.
what I am curious about is how Z 2,0TC is performing? I don't think that 2,0TC is good on Z800 but I also have Z 100-400 and Z 70-200 and I wonder how it will do on those lenses. If that Z TC 2.0 is good at all?

As to the Z TCs the consensus is they perform very well. Thom hogan used to be mostly against using TCs with the DSLRs but he has been positive about the Z TCs.Brad hill has also been positive about using TCs on the Z bodies. He says even the F mount glass and F mount TCs perform better with Z bodies, especially the Z9.

 

[fcotterill]

@fcotterill
we have also both 400/2.8 FL and Z800. The last stuck on Z9 of my partner and I somehow inherited 400/2.8.
we tested Z800 against 400FL+2TC on the ISO chart and Z800 was much much better! So, if I use TC then it is mostly 1,4TC on 400FL or on 500PF.
I also noticed that AF of 400FL performs better on D850. On Z9 it struggles sometimes however, after last Z9 firmware update it is much better.

Interesting . So I never tested my 400 E properly before it departed. It is a wonderful lens and my copy worked hard for 4 years.

The lens 400FL is heavy but it is amazng. I tend even to think that it is better than Z 400 TC but it is only an assumption, we don't have Z 400 TC and couldn't test it.
what I am curious about is how Z 2,0TC is performing? I don't think that 2,0TC is good on Z800 but I also have Z 100-400 and Z 70-200 and I wonder how it will do on those lenses.

I'm not impressed with ZTC2 on the 100-400 - only in emergencies IMHO. But I've been pleasantly surprised with the 400 f4.5S with ZTC2, although only a few tests

If that Z TC 2.0 is good at all?

Hi Elena,
Unfortunately I sold my 400 f2.8E mid 2022 after months of agonizing (!) because I found the 180-400 TC superseded it in most situations.

Based on my experience with the 800 Z mainly, I agree with TH and BradH the ZTC2 is improved.

It is a mistake to underestimate the quality of the TC2 III with the 400 f2.8E FL and 800 f5.6E FL; well at least my copy of the F-mount model is a good one! Some of the many keepers it captured are in an earlier thread. You also have a truly excellent combination with the 400 E + TC14 III. I shared a couple of examples there too.

Framing the leopard with the crocodile was one of several occasions when the ZTC2 has proved invaluable. I agree the 800 combination takes a hit in IQ especially at longer distances, but the 100+m distance to the leopard is pushing the boundaries in this example. I shared a few comparisons here of the two 800mm Nikkors with TCs.

We have too many choices, and decisions are harder since the new lighter improved telephotos were released. This made the 180-400 TC and 800E affordable but I was fortunate to get a decent return on the 400E as you know F-mount Used prices have dropped over the past 2 years.

 

[Lance B]

Like you Fenton, my 400 f2.8E FL VR + 2x TCIII is a superb combination. I really should test it against the Z800 but then I just don't see the point as they are for different purposes and in that I mean the Z800 is half the weight and thus will be in my bag rather then the 400 f2.8. My seat of the pants belief is that they are so very close in sharpness that it means the Z800 wins out due to weight. I also have not had issus with bokeh from the Z800 even if the 400 + 2x TCIII may be a tad batter but again that needs to be verified. My 400 f2.8 will be up for sale also.

 

[ElenaH]

Like you Fenton, my 400 f2.8E FL VR + 2x TCIII is a superb combination. I really should test it against the Z800 but then I just don't see the point as they are for different purposes and in that I mean the Z800 is half the weight and thus will be in my bag rather then the 400 f2.8. My seat of the pants belief is that they are so very close in sharpness that it means the Z800 wins out due to weight. I also have not had issus with bokeh from the Z800 even if the 400 + 2x TCIII may be a tad batter but again that needs to be verified. My 400 f2.8 will be up for sale also.

We tested becasue we were curious and we tested on the ISO-Chart. I think, in the real life-shooting you would not see it. probaby. Z800 was better than 400/2.8FL+2TC. especially in the corners. I can publish the results if somebody is interested.
400FL has a kind of cryspiness which is available with 1.4x TX but is lost with 2.0x TC however, the images are still sharp enough and acceptable.

 

[agrumpyoldsod]

@fcotterill
we have also both 400/2.8 FL and Z800. The last stuck on Z9 of my partner and I somehow inherited 400/2.8.
we tested Z800 against 400FL+2TC on the ISO chart and Z800 was much much better! So, if I use TC then it is mostly 1,4TC on 400FL or on 500PF.
I also noticed that AF of 400FL performs better on D850. On Z9 it struggles sometimes however, after last Z9 firmware update it is much better. The lens 400FL is heavy but it is amazng. I tend even to think that it is better than Z 400 TC but it is only an assumption, we don't have Z 400 TC and couldn't test it.
what I am curious about is how Z 2,0TC is performing? I don't think that 2,0TC is good on Z800 but I also have Z 100-400 and Z 70-200 and I wonder how it will do on those lenses. If that Z TC 2.0 is good at all?

I did a series of tests with the Z800pf, Z400/2.8TC and Z600/4.0TC on a Z9 with and without various external TCs and came to one simple conclusion -- WOW !!!!
You can see images on my flickr pages - just select the albums for each lens and look at the initial shots.

Adding a ZTC20 to an f/6.3 lens takes it to f/11 and this is itself not helpful if one tends to shoot in poor/low light, which I do. Whereas adding it to the shorter and brighter big primes or lenses the results are very good. As a rule - the ZTCs appear to have no adverse effect on Af speed and overall impact on sharpness is marginal when comparing images taken with the same settings (shutter, aperture and ISO) -- but as noted the loss of 1 or 2 stops is material if this pushes one from shooting at say ISO 2000 or 5600 to far higher levels. These are the times when one should not use a TC, rather shoot on the bare lens and crop in later in post or swap to Dx crop.

I "find" that the ZTCs seem to be "better" than the F-TC's -- but this really depends on whether or not you have a good copy of the F-TC -- my pair of F-TC14iiis we both great, and the F-TC20 I has was also great BUT the F-TC17 was lousy. I used them all on a host of lenses - most recently 400/2.8E-FL and 600/4.0E-FL before I sold both.

The ONE TC irritation I have is the fact that the only way to use a TC with the Z105/2.8MC it to add an 26mm extension ring between the lens and the TC, whereas we could just bolt on a TC to the Af-S 105/2.8 Macro -- this allowed us to get 200mm fairly easily -- but now we lose out by the losses that come with adding an extension ring (and a few benefits).

No the 400/2.8E-FL is not "better" than the Z400/2.8TC -- the new lens has better (faster and more accurate) AF motors, better coatings, is lighter and has MORE controls - but above all it is both a 400/2.8 and 560/4.0 -- which is HUGE. I simply do not take my lenses off of my Z9 in the field (well with one or two exceptions when I added a ZTC to the lens to "reach into get a shot"). The following was taken at roughly 35.5m using a Z9 Z600/4.0 TC with ZTC14 in DX crop so a focal length of 1,176mm (1,764mm effective) at f/8, 1/500th and ISO 1,600 -- the young lady is called Athena (well that is what we named her) and was hiding deep in the top of a Ballantine Tree in the Maasai Mara. AND I used Dynamic-Area Medium to reach through to her - other modes just got stuck in the foliage and Yes I start with manually focusing the AF point at the centre of the dynamic-area on my target and "hand-off" to AF-C when I press the shutter to allow for movement later. (I use the switch on the side of the lens to swap between MF and AF-C when I wish to do this and some of these shots were taken in MF). ANy softness in this image comes from me - and then the use of ISO 1600 and a low shutter speed of 1/500th

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[ElenaH]

I found the 180-400 TC superseded it in most situations

Would love to hear your thoughts about that statement ;-) For me - I think it is better a good (from composition and interest point ) image than no image at all. I am much faster with lighter lens than with "bazuka", it is clear. And often you can miss the shot.
Z-lenses are also tuned for Z-cameras and the profles in LR (which are coming from Z-cameras) make images to stand out.

Fenton, @fcotterill - I had a look already on most of your posts (except domestic cats ;-) which I will admire now ) becasue you are from Zim/SA and you are a good photographer what makes a valuable combination for somebody like me, who are visiting Zim every year I often meet with other Zim-photogrphers (Frank Boormann, Gail Odendaal) in Mana and with Jens Cullmann from DE. Frank has Nikkor 180-400 and it looks like a good choice for wildlife photography as well..