Nikon Z9 and Z8 use by video shooters

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I just deleted a bunch of posts because two members had different views and were getting personal.
We all want to enjoy discourse and a good debate offers information on topics some of us don’t get into. HOWEVER, where it gets personal tne NOBODY enjoys the chat.
 
I just deleted a bunch of posts because two members had different views and were getting personal.
We all want to enjoy discourse and a good debate offers information on topics some of us don’t get into. HOWEVER, where it gets personal tne NOBODY enjoys the chat.
Lets be real for a second 1 person came into a thread dedicated to video use for the Z9 and Z8 and proceeded to imply we are all fools for not useing a camcorder instead. I stand by all of my comments.
 
please note I have never ever got personal against anyone, infact I respect someone elses opinon believe it or not.

A little about me may help to understand. About 4 years ago I was rushed into hospital and an operation save my life. My wife didn't expect me to live according what the surgeon told her. Ever since then every day for me is a bonus and I vowed never to deliberately upset anyone. I realised how precious life was. Yes arguements can get a little heated but not from my point of view to the extent of making any derogatory remarks on any forum or face to face I just would not do.
 
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please note I have never ever got personal against anyone, infact I respect someone elses opinon believe it or not.

A little about me may help to understand. About 4 years ago I was rushed into hospital and an operation save my life. My wife didn't expect me to live according what the surgeon told her. Ever since then every day for me is a bonus and I vowed never to deliberately upset anyone. I realised how precious life was. Yes arguements can get a little heated but not from my point of view to the extent of making any derogatory remarks on any forum or face to face I just would not do.
A word of advice.... don't take such an aggressive tone, re-consider making absolute statements and select your words wisely. And know when to stop...............
 
I just attended a Zoom meeting with the Nikon School UK and screen grabbed: he answer to the question does the Z9 and Z8 have the same audio preamps and ADCs -- Yes - they both record in 48 kHz and 24-bit a significant step up from Z6ii/Z7ii. But obviously not 32 floating bit etc like in my Tascam Portacapture X8.

The Tascam hotshoe tool shown has just an analogue cable for the Z8/z9/ etc.. it is really only a way to provide phantom power and some out of camera processing - ultimately the camera is still performing the ADC at the same sample rate etc.. It gives access to better XLRM mics and has good tools - but ......

Screenshot 2023-05-25 at 19.18.40.jpg
You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.
 
Conclusion on Z8/Z9 limits - with a range of cards

In my own testing on my Z9 (both of them) and Z8 (both of them) I have tried a range of different cards and tests - I can confirm that I was able to replicate with my cards the tests run by Matt Irwin, Ricci Talks and Gerald Undone's and I achieved similar results. YES the Z9 outperforms the Z8 and the Z8 will shut down due to heat. BUT only after relatively long single footage recordings in the highest most data intense settings. Battery and Recording limits are hit first in "more normal" shooting settings.
Both the Delkin Black and ProGrade Cobalt cards performed exceptionally but at 650GB Max size the highest settings eat through them quickly.

Result 1 -- the Z9 runs for longer and cooler no overheating limits hit with the fastest cards on any format/fps -- 20˚C in the shade. I filled both a 4TB AngelBird card and the Sabrent Rocket CFX Pro 2TB (the Copper PRO version not the Blue version) without issue shooting 8.3k 60p 12-bit HQ N-RAW N-LOG. 2TB fils in 46 min 45 seconds. Switching from High Quality to Normal Quality increased the recording time on 2TB from 46.75min to 77 mins.

Result 2 - Delkin Black 512GB card recording 8.3k 60p 12-bit HQ N-RAW N-LOG with the Z8 will fills the card in 11.7 minutes without the camera shutting down -- but YES hot card and hot warnings. Same test in Standard Quality filled the 512GB card at 19. 2mins.
[Z8#1 body - Housed in a SmallRig cage, attached to Z 70-200 f/2.8S, on a tripod, with power delivery from a 99 Whr V-battery (so similar to how I would use it)].
Delkin updated the 512GB card to a 650GB card -- it is reported that the 650GB runs a wee bit faster and cooler, but I am still waiting for mine to arrive.

Result 3 - ProGrade Cobalt 650GB runs a similar to the Delkin Black 512GB. Card filled in HQ 14.8mins and 24.5 mins in Standard Quality.

Result 4 - Sabrent Rocket CFX Pro 2TB - 8.3k 60p 12-bit HQ N-RAW N-LOG - Hot card after 12.5 mins; Hot camera 15.5 mins; RED warning 20.5 mins; Shutdown 29 min 33 seconds; Camera allowed to cool then recording restarted. I chose not to complete a 2nd test.
[Housed in Cage, Attached to 100-400 fixed on tripod, using Power Delivery, elapsed time measured using TimeCode display reset before each recording, LCD moved slightly away from camera to reduce reflections]

See table below for details of each test

Observation 1 - I have 2 Z9 and one (Z9#1) performs slightly "better" than the other (Z9#2) -- see my stills buffer tests when using the exact same card in each body both are set up identically and shot identically - but with slightly different outcomes. Camera Z9#1 performs the best and is label for easy recognition in the field.

Observation 2 - I ran the same tests on both my Z8 bodies (Z8#1 and Z8#2) and found similar results with both bodies. More testing will be completed before I identify if one body performs better than the 2nd.

Statement - anyone seeking to shoot 8k/60p RAW 12-bit HQ should be using dedicated CINE camera with ACTIVE cooling. All hybrid cameras (without active cooling) have limits.

Request 1 - The 125 minutes artificial single recording limit on both the Z8 and Z9 needs to go. One can easily record very very long vid segments in lower demanding CODEX/Formats with Power Delivery from a large power bank or similar without any issue -- other than the limit and therefore one has to wonder why it was imposed AND hope it can be removed by Nikon. Bad for long interviews, live performances and remote shooting of events etc... Just let the camera run.

Request 2 - for both the Z8 and Z9 - please allow Shutter Angle to be displayed.

Screenshot 2023-06-03 at 18.11.38.png
 
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Conclusion on Z8/Z9 limits - with a range of cards

In my own testing on my Z9 (both of them) and Z8 (both of them) I have tried a range of different cards and tests - I can confirm that I was able to replicate with my cards the tests run by Matt Irwin, Ricci Talks and Gerald Undone's and I achieved similar results. YES the Z9 outperforms the Z8 and the Z8 will shut down due to heat. BUT only after relatively long single footage recordings in the highest most data intense settings. Battery and Recording limits are hit first in "more normal" shooting settings.

Result 1 -- the Z9 runs for longer and cooler no overheating limits hit with the fastest cards on any format/fps -- 20˚C in the shade. I filled both a 4TB AngelBird card and the Sabrent Rocket CFX Pro 2TB (the Copper PRO version not the Blue version) without issue shooting 8.3k 60p 12-bit HQ N-RAW N-LOG. 2TB fils in 46 min 45 seconds. Switching from High Quality to Normal Quality increased the recording time on 2TB from 46.75min to 77 mins.

Result 2 - Delkin Black 512GB card recording 8.3k 60p 12-bit HQ N-RAW N-LOG with the Z8 will fills the card in 11.7 minutes without the camera shutting down -- but YES hot card and hot warnings. Same test in Standard Quality filled the 512GB card at 19. 2mins.
[Z8#1 body - Housed in a SmallRig cage, attached to Z 70-200 f/2.8S, on a tripod, with power delivery from a 99 Whr V-battery (so similar to how I would use it)].
Delkin updated the 512GB card to a 650GB card -- it is reported that the 650GB runs a wee bit faster and cooler, but I am still waiting for mine to arrive.

Result 3 - ProGrade Cobalt 650GB runs a similar to the Delkin Black 512GB. Card filled in HQ 14.8mins and 24.5 mins in Standard Quality.

Result 4 - Sabrent Rocket CFX Pro 2TB - 8.3k 60p 12-bit HQ N-RAW N-LOG - Hot card after 12.5 mins; Hot camera 15.5 mins; RED warning 20.5 mins; Shutdown 29 min 33 seconds; Camera allowed to cool then recording restarted. I chose not to complete a 2nd test.
[Housed in Cage, Attached to 100-400 fixed on tripod, using Power Delivery, elapsed time measured using TimeCode display reset before each recording, LCD moved slightly away from camera to reduce reflections]

See table below for details of each test

Observation 1 - I have 2 Z9 and one (Z9#1) performs slightly "better" than the other (Z9#2) -- see my stills buffer tests when using the exact same card in each body both are set up identically and shot identically - but with slightly different outcomes. Camera Z9#1 performs the best and is label for easy recognition in the field.

Observation 2 - I ran the same tests on both my Z8 bodies (Z8#1 and Z8#2) and found similar results with both bodies. More testing will be completed before I identify if one body performs better than the 2nd.

Statement - anyone seeking to shoot 8k/60p RAW 12-bit HQ should be using dedicated CINE camera with ACTIVE cooling. All hybrid cameras (without active cooling) have limits.

Request 1 - The 125 minutes artificial single recording limit on both the Z8 and Z9 needs to go. One can easily record very very long vid segments in lower demanding CODEX/Formats with Power Delivery from a large power bank or similar without any issue -- other than the limit and therefore one has to wonder why it was imposed AND hope it can be removed by Nikon. Bad for long interviews, live performances and remote shooting of events etc... Just let the camera run.

Request 2 - for both the Z8 and Z9 - please allow Shutter Angle to be displayed.

View attachment 62545

Thanks for this Andy.
 
@Andy Miller Photo UK , thank you very much for such detailed tests! It is a lot of work! Very appreciated.
I assume, you tested under normal temperature ( ca. +20 Celsius) I wonder how it will be by +39 C. Hope, you will report it as well after your Africa-trips.
Thanks! (y)
Intersting, that two Z9 bodies differs... ;-)
 
@Andy Miller Photo UK , thank you very much for such detailed tests! It is a lot of work! Very appreciated.
I assume, you tested under normal temperature ( ca. +20 Celsius) I wonder how it will be by +39 C. Hope, you will report it as well after your Africa-trips.
Thanks! (y)
Intersting, that two Z9 bodies differs... ;-)

Hi --- @ElenaH - yes -- it is still cool here and being built rather like a Walrus (well from the gut upwards) I luv it.

My pair of Z9 held up very well in March in Kenya - I shot almost 10 TB of 8.3 K 60p HQ N-Raw N-Log footage and over 20,000 stills -- including some very long 20 fps busts of lions hunting and leopards climbing a tree, descending a tree and running away -- some of which I turned into vids and posted on VT. I am primarily a stills shooter (and have been for a very very very long time).

I am relatively new to Video and am fighting with Da Vinci Resolve 18.5 Studio -- I still cannot get what I want when using the Z9 or Z8 3D-LUT -- I much prefer the "look" of DaVinci Colour Managed without using the LUT (either of the 2 for Z9) rather than selecting DaVinci YRGB (DaVinci WG/Intermediate) doing all the work to pull back the vastly over contrasty and wrongly coloured results I get when I have used it.

I am still working it -- my current color grading Node Tree is based on what one "smart alec" called Intermediate and now lives as a power grade so I can just apply it to all my footage.

I am sure there is a simpler way and I will seek to optimise this later.

In short take the clip - transform the colour space to DaVinci Wide Gamut -- complete the bulk of the grading in this colour space - then transform the colour space into Rec.709 and apply the 3D-LUT -- and as a final step "for that filmic CINE look" take it through another Color Space Transformation into Cineon Film Log (allowing DaVinci to tone mapp) [or whatever output you need to deliver].

Once set up for all clips, provided they were all shot using the same settings, it is relatively quick to even them all out and tweak the specific adjustments to each clip.

Screenshot 2023-06-07 at 08.40.08.png
 
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I shot almost 10 TB of 8.3 K 60p HQ N-Raw N-Log footage and over 20,000 stills
oh, yes, I know, you told it already in previous posts. I start to know people on the forum ;-) who is doing what and liking what :)

So, that sreenshot of DaVinci looks for me like a ... trying to find a right English expression ;-) in German we would say "ich verstehe Bahnhof" what would mean I have absolutely no idea about it 😅 it looks very complicated. I use Final Cut Pro and at the meoment I don't want to shoot video in RAW or ProRes becasue I'd like to start with simple things, to learn to take videos in place (camera movement, etc). I don't have big cards anyway as well as possiblity to charge a lot in Africa (I am charging from the car) so, I need to consider all pro and contra :)
 
So, that screenshot of DaVinci looks for me like a ... trying to find a right English expression ;-) in German we would say "ich verstehe Bahnhof" what would mean I have absolutely no idea about it 😅 it looks very complicated. I use Final Cut Pro and at the moment I don't want to shoot video in RAW or ProRes because I'd like to start with simple things, to learn to take videos in place (camera movement, etc).

This was just a screen shot of the NODE tree on the Colour TAB or PANE. DVR like PP, FCP etc.. are all similar in that they separate the process in to workspaces/panes or tabs:
  1. Media Pool for the project
  2. Timeline (Assemble/Cut),
  3. Edit (detailed trimming/titles);
  4. Effects (transitions/Special FX),
  5. Audio
  6. Colour Grading
  7. and finally Delivery/Export.
What is special in DVR is its approach to Colour Grading -- one can simply ignore nodes. But it is so much easier to work with them once one has a basic understanding that ideally you want each Node to do a different thing -- that way you can control and see the effect and go backwards more easily than is the adjustments you made were buried in a more general grade.

The Node Tree I showed above (updated) is now in my library and I can apply it to all my footage if I wish -- so once built it takes no time to apply -- obviously one adjusts the individual settings and values - but the principles of what "one should do" are set out in the tree.
  1. The top row serves 2 needs:
    1. first to convert all clips in the timeline into the same working space (DaVinci YRGB (DaVinci WG/Intermediate) -- the largest colour space I use)
    2. THEN go through steps to globally fix the luminescence and overall contrast of the footage to achieve the basic look I am seeking: -- WB, overall contrasts/overall curve (custom curves) and exposure (including overall global luminosity, whites and blacks and specific curve adjustments) ;
  2. 2nd row are the overall primaries (Lift, gammer and gain), saturation, other colour and hue" adjustments (including split-toning) to address key elements of the "look" I am seeking to deliver

  3. 3rd Row
    1. more targeted adjustments where the subject is isolated and overall lighting is adjusted.
    2. Finally take the color space into R.709 to apply the Nikon 3D-Lut, which is a R.709 LUT [I find I do not like this when applied to N-RAW 12-bit N-log - the LUT guide states the Nikon 3D-LUT is optimised for use with 10-bit N-Log footage (presumably ONLY .mov formats shot in N-LOG) -- NOT used for this N-RAW N-LOG timeline
    3. I have chosen to add one further step of adopting a CINE look - NOT used for this timeline
Alex Bjorstorp's YT vid titled Intermediate Node Tree for Color Grading in DaVinci Resolve 19 was a great help - while I am close to Alex's example - I split the overall curve and other contrast adjustments. AND very specifically added a Saturation adjustment to reflect the desaturated style I wish to achieve.
 
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Using the Nikon N-Log 3D LUT ---- well here is the thing -- this LUT only appears to provide useable output when the whole Color Management settings in Project Settings are set to Rec.709 Gamma 2.4.

No dreams of using DaVince WG/Intermediate and then "LATER" colorspace transforming into the output you have to deliver.

The whole workflow has to be in Rec.709. The SMALLEST color space OTHERWISE it looks terrible.

Does anyone else have a better answer? [Other than my Plan A which is to ignore the 3D-Lut provided by Nikon for the Z9 -- either of them - and simply grade up from scratch (FLAT) or build my Own LUT using SyderCheckr and various software.]

Yes I have read and applied the various Technical Guides.
(Z_9_N-Log-Full_to_REC709-Full_33_V01-00.cube)

Screenshot 2023-06-14 at 23.18.31.png


Ideally Color grading would happen in DV WG/intermediate and Color Space transformed as required by the output you have to deliver --- BUT NO not with this LUT. I tried everything - the following is one of a great many settings I have tried to AVOID just using Rec.709.

Screenshot 2023-06-14 at 19.46.25.png
 
Using the Nikon N-Log 3D LUT ---- well here is the thing -- this LUT only appears to provide useable output when the whole Color Management settings in Project Settings are set to Rec.709 Gamma 2.4.

No dreams of using DaVince WG/Intermediate and then "LATER" colorspace transforming into the output you have to deliver.

The whole workflow has to be in Rec.709. The SMALLEST color space OTHERWISE it looks terrible.

Does anyone else have a better answer? [Other than my Plan A which is to ignore the 3D-Lut provided by Nikon for the Z9 -- either of them - and simply grade up from scratch (FLAT) or build my Own LUT using SyderCheckr and various software.]

Yes I have read and applied the various Technical Guides.
(Z_9_N-Log-Full_to_REC709-Full_33_V01-00.cube)

View attachment 63423

Ideally Color grading would happen in DV WG/intermediate and Color Space transformed as required by the output you have to deliver --- BUT NO not with this LUT. I tried everything - the following is one of a great many settings I have tried to AVOID just using Rec.709.

View attachment 63424

Is this a DVR issue?

No problem in PP using the following structure:

1. Shoot nlog
2. Place two adjustment layers above it in the timeline
3. Apply the second (newer) Nikon lut to covert to 704. The first one was made for the Z7 and is very over saturated and has muddy shadows
4. To same layer apply basic adjustments such as exposure and color balance, but don't overthink it yet
5. Color grade or apply your creative lut to the top layer
6. Return to the middle layer for ANY basic adjustments such as exposure, curves, etc. My experience is that if I use basic adjustments on the creative layer it gets messed up quickly
7. Export to match highest quality

That seems to produce a very clean, corrected and graded file.
 
Is this a DVR issue?
It should not be the £D-LUT is designed for use with them all
No problem in PP using the following structure:
1. Shoot nlog
2. Place two adjustment layers above it in the timeline
3. Apply the second (newer) Nikon lut to covert to 704. The first one was made for the Z7 and is very over saturated and has muddy shadows
4. To same layer apply basic adjustments such as exposure and color balance, but don't overthink it yet
5. Color grade or apply your creative lut to the top layer
6. Return to the middle layer for ANY basic adjustments such as exposure, curves, etc. My experience is that if I use basic adjustments on the creative layer it gets messed up quickly
7. Export to match highest quality
That seems to produce a very clean, corrected and graded file.

Thanks but 8TB for N-Raw N-Log Footage shot in march. So I have to use DVR-18.3. I sent NPS a message.

I can grade it in Rec.709 but it loses something. I have also graded not using the 3D-LUT. I am still working on how best to grade N-raw N-log to get the output the way I want. So far still to contrasty and oversaturated for me.

The following are obviously downsampled and not presented in a HDR gamut (BT-2020 or similar)

Rec.709 grade with 3D-LUT -- Saturation dropped to 0.79 and green stautation dropped - a very few moments to do

Graded without a 3D-LUT in "my normal process" -- a longer process.


Here is a longer series of vids on a leopard
 
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One more option I just realized I had. Filmconvert which has really good film-stock conversion pluggins also has a Rec709 lut built in for the Z9. I'll play with it and see if there is a difference.
 
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