That's amazing! We are going to learn so much about animals using these new cameras.
Official Nikon Z9 Launch, Info, and Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Steve
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O
Well-known member
From what I have read recently about people getting upset........
In this forum i have not come across anything that upsets me or i find offensive, i have no issue with people expressing them selves, sometimes people act like children, sooner or later they burn them selves out and fall asleep or go away, why react, their only children.
I can understand if things really get truly off topic and yes it should be brought back on course, but to chuck a wobbly on what is in this forum and threaten to take you bat and ball home unless..........., is well a little sad, maybe one should just leave, why should someone be a kill joy of 98% of what is great over the 2% that you may find not so.
That said out of problems comes opportunity to change, often for the better sometimes not.
Comparing gear, use, technique, general info has its benefits by being shared, the internet is a global pool of information sadly only 1/2% of it can be possibly relied upon.
Comparing Sony Nikon Canon Fuji, and all they have to offer is great, its knowledge sharing. I like many have despite my skill sets and level of knowledge have still learnt so much over time on these BCF.........there are lot of nice people here, we should welcome beginners thirsty for knowledge and not ever allow it to become an elitist group of experts or boys club that i have seen develop in some camera clubs.
Steve is smart and will handle things
People have their bias, that's fine..........one can accept it or pass it by, but don't try to change it or get upset over it.
All the more reason to go lightly and compassionately.
Regardless of changing things there will always be that 2% creep in sooner or later.
Enjoy, stay safe
In this forum i have not come across anything that upsets me or i find offensive, i have no issue with people expressing them selves, sometimes people act like children, sooner or later they burn them selves out and fall asleep or go away, why react, their only children.
I can understand if things really get truly off topic and yes it should be brought back on course, but to chuck a wobbly on what is in this forum and threaten to take you bat and ball home unless..........., is well a little sad, maybe one should just leave, why should someone be a kill joy of 98% of what is great over the 2% that you may find not so.
That said out of problems comes opportunity to change, often for the better sometimes not.
Comparing gear, use, technique, general info has its benefits by being shared, the internet is a global pool of information sadly only 1/2% of it can be possibly relied upon.
Comparing Sony Nikon Canon Fuji, and all they have to offer is great, its knowledge sharing. I like many have despite my skill sets and level of knowledge have still learnt so much over time on these BCF.........there are lot of nice people here, we should welcome beginners thirsty for knowledge and not ever allow it to become an elitist group of experts or boys club that i have seen develop in some camera clubs.
Steve is smart and will handle things
People have their bias, that's fine..........one can accept it or pass it by, but don't try to change it or get upset over it.
All the more reason to go lightly and compassionately.
Regardless of changing things there will always be that 2% creep in sooner or later.
Enjoy, stay safe
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O
Well-known member
Darwin
Well-known member
Straight out of the camera, 84 images were untouched. Even coming straight at you Auto-AF stays on target 100 percent of the time when the background is the sky. Only one image is slightly soft on the eye when the gul turns it's head. Nikon Z9, 500E 2000 ISO. Also, had success tracking a King Fisher far and small in frame with busy background when starting off in focus and using 3d. Still a lot for me to figure out. Currently dialed lock-on down to 2 from the 5 I have been recommended, experimenting.
O
Well-known member
Straight out of the camera, 84 images were untouched. Even coming straight at you Auto-AF stays on target 100 percent of the time when the background is the sky. Only one image is slightly soft on the eye when the gul turns it's head. Nikon Z9, 500E 2000 ISO. Also, had success tracking a King Fisher far and small in frame with busy background when starting off in focus and using 3d. Still a lot for me to figure out. Currently dialed lock-on down to 2 from the 5 I have been recommended, experimenting.
Brilliant mate Love it
O
Well-known member
Some Jpeg snaps Z9 D850
1st two Z9....... 9 points LARGE
Surfing shots D850 200-500 at 500 25 points
Cowboy D4 28-300 at 300 21 points candid shot using natural light
1st two Z9....... 9 points LARGE
Surfing shots D850 200-500 at 500 25 points
Cowboy D4 28-300 at 300 21 points candid shot using natural light
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O
Well-known member
Some older snaps taken in Jpeg
D4s 150-500 Sigma 21 points, matrix, 11fps
D4s 150-500 Sigma 21 points, matrix, 11fps
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Darwin
Well-known member
Definitely, but, I do miss group AF sometimes.
sid_19911991
Well-known member
1) I think that's probably a classic case of Exclusion Bias. One can also make the Z9 a perfect beast with Survivorship Bias. I don't think you should read too much into it. Jan Wagner, Duade Paton, (who mostly shoot stills in R5) & Glenn Bartley (who mostly shoots stills with A1) talk about how mirrorless cameras randomly lose focus for the simplest of static subjects for no rhyme or reason. In those moments, they simply give a nudge to the focus ring to get it back on track. I use this method too, I find it faster & easier than using single point focus. I have experienced the same with Z9. We are probably still 5 years away, for these minor bugs to go away. I don't think anyone should buy a flagship camera based on AF ability for stills anymore as they are all good.
O
Well-known member
So I am politically correct, i do have a Z9 with 6000 actuation's so far LOL, Half the shots using 3 D tracking the other half not.
For what i want and need the Z9 gets a 10/10, again, I haven't got and for the near future no real passion or interest in auto tracking etc.
However i will as previously stated on early rants work hard, take my time to understand and embrace the new tracking features and its benefits, where they may exist, of course with an open mind.
I realise and have learnt somewhat that the 3 Amigos, Sony Canon Nikon as a group have moved strongly into mirrorless placing each brand at slightly different stages of development.
Its fair to assume they will collectively continue to advance in this area over time, especially with consumer funded money, consumers who will buy the next six refreshed development models LOL.
I think that a lot of the mirror less auto tracking focusing gremlins in all brands are still in need for some ripening or development and possibly to be more user friendly, less sophisticated, whats another benefit is one will require far less skill sets to use a camera which will allow us to focus on the subject composition............YAHN !!!!!!!
For what i have seen, heard and with limited experience in using the 3D tracking, a lot errors issues appear possibly to be largely user error, others take to it like a duck to water but still have minor issues here and there.
I think the industry is in some cases close to getting things right others may still be lagging..............i think in the main auto focus tracking is still a little over rated.
Only an opinion..............
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O
Well-known member
The flying duck is amazing and seems to use the focus tracking in ideal circumstances.
May i ask a puzzling question...........no offense to anyone, why use tracking at all in this application.
thelordofthelight
Well-known member
Thanks for sharing. I have shot the Z9 for about 2 weeks now (10k images of mostly BIF and heavy spray and pray type shooting, which i never do except now because I'm testing the different AF modes and override options) and find the AF to be very good in general ( as a Nikon user, this is already ground breaking for me but then I can see the PoV of Sony users like arbitrage who do crazy action shots of erratic flying birds and I'd like to have that level of uncanny AF performance as well on the Z9).
What you've shown here is pretty much what I notice when it comes to tracking flying birds. The camera tries to keep the AF box somewhere near the head/ torso.
I was photographing Shikras and Barn swallows yesterday. Shikras are birds of prey that are the size of a pigeon. Their flight patterns are not like larger raptors but more like Kestrel, glide for a while and then a quick flap of the wings and a bit of erratic flight path and so on. What I noticed was in general the AF tracking box was somewhere near the head but occasionally the box latches on to the wings that have distinct patterns. I also had a small sequence where the AF box tracked the eyes well when I was super steady with the EVF and panning properly and then it jumped to the head/torso area as the bird flew fast ( I was using wide area L). With big birds i generally find the AF works very well even in busier backgrounds.
As for swallows when they were against the sky background and if I did my job well of keeping the bird within the viewfinder (@700mm!), the camera could track the bird throughout the frame. Not always, but i think it really comes down to how well the photographer can track and keep the EVF steady. I'm not a BIF specialist so there's a lot of BIF competence (or the lack of it) that comes in to play here. Now, when the swallow transitions from sky to a busy BG or foliage, I couldn't get an AF lock at all. With bigger birds, i get away with wide area L but there's no way I'm going to be able to use anything other than auto area AF to track these little birds like swallows. And the problem with auto area AF is that it is too sensitive (1-3 lock on settings) which makes it worse for the AF when there's is a transition from clean BG to even slightly busy BG or even when I start my AF acquisition in a slightly cleaner BG that is not sky. The AF module and the hardware in the Z9 seem to be very capable but there's definitely a lot of room for improvements to make it even better.
Here are the things that I wish Nikon would address with future fw updates:
1. We definitely need a more robust AF area mode with top priority for close subjects. Maybe Nikon knew this already, which is why they plan on implementing something similar to group af/ customizable box sizes. Wide area L generally works to get an AF lock in busy bg but we will need a wider box throughout the frame that works on close subject priority.
2. An AF tweak that can make the AF box more sticky when the subject transitions from clean to busy bg. The Z9 consistently misses this regardless of the birds and with bigger birds I can easily release the AF and refocus using wide area L to reacquire the subject but still doesn't help with erratic subjects
3. Bird eye tracking - Although it's good as is, I feel I'm getting away most of the time because of the DoF even when the AF box is near the neck/ head of the bird. I'd prefer the AF box to just latch on to the eye or much closer to the eyes instead of jumping too much. I have seen many instances where the AF box finds the eye or around the eye accurately but then resorts to a larger af box to the torso or neck area. I read in FM forum that Nikon's bird eye library has fewer birds database compared to a much wider range of birds in the canon algorithm and Nikon is planning (rumour) to update the bird AI library with more bird species. Again, I hope they do this and add more bird species/ shapes to make it stickier.
What you've shown here is pretty much what I notice when it comes to tracking flying birds. The camera tries to keep the AF box somewhere near the head/ torso.
I was photographing Shikras and Barn swallows yesterday. Shikras are birds of prey that are the size of a pigeon. Their flight patterns are not like larger raptors but more like Kestrel, glide for a while and then a quick flap of the wings and a bit of erratic flight path and so on. What I noticed was in general the AF tracking box was somewhere near the head but occasionally the box latches on to the wings that have distinct patterns. I also had a small sequence where the AF box tracked the eyes well when I was super steady with the EVF and panning properly and then it jumped to the head/torso area as the bird flew fast ( I was using wide area L). With big birds i generally find the AF works very well even in busier backgrounds.
As for swallows when they were against the sky background and if I did my job well of keeping the bird within the viewfinder (@700mm!), the camera could track the bird throughout the frame. Not always, but i think it really comes down to how well the photographer can track and keep the EVF steady. I'm not a BIF specialist so there's a lot of BIF competence (or the lack of it) that comes in to play here. Now, when the swallow transitions from sky to a busy BG or foliage, I couldn't get an AF lock at all. With bigger birds, i get away with wide area L but there's no way I'm going to be able to use anything other than auto area AF to track these little birds like swallows. And the problem with auto area AF is that it is too sensitive (1-3 lock on settings) which makes it worse for the AF when there's is a transition from clean BG to even slightly busy BG or even when I start my AF acquisition in a slightly cleaner BG that is not sky. The AF module and the hardware in the Z9 seem to be very capable but there's definitely a lot of room for improvements to make it even better.
Here are the things that I wish Nikon would address with future fw updates:
1. We definitely need a more robust AF area mode with top priority for close subjects. Maybe Nikon knew this already, which is why they plan on implementing something similar to group af/ customizable box sizes. Wide area L generally works to get an AF lock in busy bg but we will need a wider box throughout the frame that works on close subject priority.
2. An AF tweak that can make the AF box more sticky when the subject transitions from clean to busy bg. The Z9 consistently misses this regardless of the birds and with bigger birds I can easily release the AF and refocus using wide area L to reacquire the subject but still doesn't help with erratic subjects
3. Bird eye tracking - Although it's good as is, I feel I'm getting away most of the time because of the DoF even when the AF box is near the neck/ head of the bird. I'd prefer the AF box to just latch on to the eye or much closer to the eyes instead of jumping too much. I have seen many instances where the AF box finds the eye or around the eye accurately but then resorts to a larger af box to the torso or neck area. I read in FM forum that Nikon's bird eye library has fewer birds database compared to a much wider range of birds in the canon algorithm and Nikon is planning (rumour) to update the bird AI library with more bird species. Again, I hope they do this and add more bird species/ shapes to make it stickier.
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Well, since my Z9 hasn't arrive, I'm stuck reading the manual.
Have you tried some of the "focus point persistence" settings described on page 12 of the "Nikon Z9 Professional Settings Guide, Sports Edition"?
BrianSmall
Active member
FWIW, Alex has done and posted numerous tests of birds flying against varied backgrounds and all show the same result....................the Z9 just continues to lose focus as a bird moves from sky to non-sky background. He's tested all the different AF settings and none seem to eliminate this issue. Perhaps a firmware fix can improve the camera's ability in this situation but for now it appears the Z9 struggles with this situation.
Also, Glenn does not shoot Sony..................he shoots Canon and I believe has moved to the R5 now.
thelordofthelight
Well-known member
Yes, focus point persistence setting is helpful (set to Auto) when we use multiple AF modes. Say for instance I start tracking my bird that's far off with Wide Area L (Auto or 3D isn't ideal as it keeps picking background or brighter sources), i keep tracking the bird until the bird occupies a sizeable portion of the frame, say 50% or more and by this time my DoF gets shallow and its easier while it gets difficult to keep using wide area L as i can't move my AF box while the subject is closing in. So what i do is just press my AF-ON button to which i have programmed auto area mode and now the camera is able to track the subject much easier without jumping over to the background. This is where the focus point persistence helps as the AF box can seamlessly transition from wide area L to Auto area instead of having to re-acquire as i shift my focus modes.
I have also configured my camera in such a way that i have a combination of AF modes with different lock-on tracking sensitivity to deal with erratic subjects (when i need responsive setting of 1-3) vs stickier option (4-5) when i want the camera to just latch on to the subject and not let go of it. I have set my default lock on to 5, so this works when i use my standard shutter AF to which i set Wide -Area L. When i need a responsive AF, i just use either Auto area or 3D using AF-ON and Joystick buttons respectively.
Again, this set-up works really well (much better than any DSLSRs i have used in the pas like D850/500/D4 etc.). My list of improvement areas are nit picky and for extreme action scenarios like tracking swallows.
I have also configured my camera in such a way that i have a combination of AF modes with different lock-on tracking sensitivity to deal with erratic subjects (when i need responsive setting of 1-3) vs stickier option (4-5) when i want the camera to just latch on to the subject and not let go of it. I have set my default lock on to 5, so this works when i use my standard shutter AF to which i set Wide -Area L. When i need a responsive AF, i just use either Auto area or 3D using AF-ON and Joystick buttons respectively.
Again, this set-up works really well (much better than any DSLSRs i have used in the pas like D850/500/D4 etc.). My list of improvement areas are nit picky and for extreme action scenarios like tracking swallows.
sid_19911991
Well-known member
I have had the Z9 for a week, haven't had an opportunity to test the scenario extensively, but the one time I did, it picked up a heron transitioning from blue sky background to shrubbery with ease. I will need more time to make a better judgement.
All of the recent Youtube videos of Glenn in his channel & in Jan Wagenar's YT channel which are about 4 months old, he extensively talks about shooting the A1. If he has changed his gear a week or two ago, I couldn't care less. His opinion on mirrorless cameras randomly focussing at unintended targets in the simplest of situations remains.
O
Well-known member
I will be doing some landscapes soon so i will pay particular attention. Thanks for the tip...........this post is a wealth of information.
sid_19911991
Well-known member
In short, wide-area large mode with animal detection switched on, AF sensitivity set at 5, & subject motion set to erratic, yielded the best results for birds-in-flight with busy background even in low-dull light, IMO.
Following are the examples of lapwing that I shot in dull light. It was cloudy with pale light. Shot on Z9 with 500 pf on dx mode.
Unedited jpegs. I shot a burst of 28 images. 25 of them are in focus & the sharpest part of the image. The other 3 of them are also reasonably in focus, but its eye is not the sharpest part of the image but the dried branch near it. 1/2500, f5.6, most pics have an ISO of 2800.
(10th image in a sequence of 28) (1st 17 images are like image 10)
(18th image in a sequence of 28)
(21st image in a sequence of 28)
(23rd image in a sequence of 28)
It is not letting me to attach more than 4 files!
.............
How I have set up my AF.
a) Shutter Button AF --- (BIF shooting -
Full Area AF with animal detection on & sensitivity at 1, subject motion steady with the Shutter AF button. If the background is busy, I switch to 5 & erratic option. At the top of the custom menu list, I have added AF sensitivity menu option. So one click of the menu button while my eye is pressed against the EVF, I get to toggle the AF sensitivity scale.
b) Shutter Button AF --- (BIF shooting)
Wide Area- AF button with animal detection on & sensitivity at 1, subject motion steady with the Shutter AF button. So the AF button only gives me the AF mode, while the AF focussing is still done by the half-pressed shutter button.
c) Joystick button Shutter On + AF --- (Slow moving birds/mammals in clutter shooting)
By using the lens recall function, I have set it to wide-area small with animal detection on. AF sensitivity to 5. Subject motion to erratic. (Other settings include manual focus focus with auto ISO but with a starting point of 1/800, f5.6, +0.3 EV, Spot metering). I intend to use this mode only for small birds or mammals in extremely busy background. If the wide-area small fails, I adjust the focus ring button & make use of the focus peaking (setting 3) mechanism. So far, I have found this the most effective way to focus on tiny birds in dense foliage.
d) I have set up Function 1 button to dx/fx mode crop.
e) Function 2 button as single point.
f) Yet to try 3d mode.
The Z9 AF tracking isnt idiot proof. If you set it to auto area and try to photograph a bird that in reality is too far away to make a decent photo its going to lock onto a busy background. So far as others have mentioned one of the wide area modes to initially acquire af with a button programed to 3d tracking for when the bird gets close enough to actually shoot seems to be working very well. For any example of it failing to hold onto a bird in the next county I can show a sequence shot at 120fps with a busy background where it performs perfectly. There are some people out there deliberately testing the AF on shots they would never seriously attempt to take. I suspect those people WANT to show the AF failing for whatever reason. Those same people wont show you when their camera's AF fails. The kingfisher shot below happened in 1/2 a sec.... how do i know? because at 20fps I got less than 10 frames off at it. Anyone doubting the capabilities of the Z9 Af is either full of it or simply not used to it yet.
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zule11
Active member
Wildlife- & Landschaftsfotografie mit der Nikon Z 9 - mit Naturfotograf Florian Smit
it is in German, but captions available (auto translate)
it is in German, but captions available (auto translate)
Not a lot of BIF but what there is is awesome. Love the raptor shots near the end of the video
Hermann
Active member
This also: http://www.naturalart.ca/voice/blog.html Scroll to the entry about cold weather performance of the Z9.This post by Ganesh might be useful here.
Z9 photo thread
planned to go into the woods today but it didn't really stopped (snow-)raining today --therefore just some "Garden Wildlife" for fun and practise. So excuses for no eagles, kingfishers or ospreys :) Tried to use a bit the tilty screen but I 'm not really used to shooting off the display and...bcgforums.com
More duck tracking with a busy background this time.
The tracking was great.The suspense was not
