Question about Cropping

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coachjohn57

coachjohn57

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The vast majority of my images aren’t cropped; my Father, one of my early mentors in photography, always advised me to “crop with your feet or crop with your lens…get it right in the camera”, a lesson that stuck with me from those early years as a pre-teen using film to my days using digital. One of Steve’s videos seemed to reinforce that same idea.

Over the last three years or so, as I’ve moved more and more into bird photography, I’m finding that more and more challenging; get frame filling images of birds, particularly birds in flight is challenging (my longest lens is my 500PF). To date, other than straightening the horizon on some images, I still tend to shoot to fill the frame within the confines of my hoped for composition (another aspect of BIF that is challenging), yet I also know that that leaves shots on the table so to speak. There are many wonderful photographers in this forum; how do you approach it and why?
 
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coachjohn57 said:
The vast majority of my images aren’t cropped; my Father, one of my early mentors in photography, always advised me to “crop with your feet or crop with your lens…get it right in the camera”, a lesson that stuck with me from those early years as a pre-teen using film to my days using digital. One of Steve’s videos seemed to reinforce that same idea.

Over the last three years or so, as I’ve moved more and more into bird photography, I’m finding that more and more challenging; get frame filling images of birds, particularly birds in flight is challenging (my longest lens is my 500PF). To date, other than straightening the horizon on some images, I still tend to shoot to fill the frame within the confines of my hoped for composition (another aspect of BIF that is challenging), yet I also know that that leaves shots on the table so to speak. There are many wonderful photographers in this forum; how do you approach it and why?
Click to expand...
What camera (sensor size) are you using and how are you displaying your photos (eg printing small, large, email, social media)?

If you're shooting a large full-frame sensor (40+), RAW, low ISO, for smaller prints, social media, emails etc, plenty of room to crop.
 
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Nimi said:
What camera (sensor size) are you using and how are you displaying your photos (eg printing small, large, email, social media)?

If you're shooting a large full-frame sensor (40+), RAW, low ISO, for smaller prints, social media, emails etc, plenty of room to crop.
Click to expand...
In the past, for BIF, I used a D500, so a crop sensor. I used my D850 for landscapes, flora, etc. I recently purchased a Z9 and will be using that for BIF in the future. When I print, I tend to print large (usually 16” x 24” prints on metal); using OnOne’s Resize AI to size my images, I’ve had good results with the files the D500 produces. Most of my prints are for home, although I recently entered a juried show, had 3 pieces accepted, and I am hoping to begin to sell pieces occasionally once I retire from teaching (in the classroom the past 44 years and looking to teach a few more).
 
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coachjohn57 said:
In the past, for BIF, I used a D500, so a crop sensor. I used my D850 for landscapes, flora, etc. I recently purchased a Z9 and will be using that for BIF in the future. When I print, I tend to print large (usually 16” x 24” prints on metal); using OnOne’s Resize AI to size my images, I’ve had good results with the files the D500 produces. Most of my prints are for home, although I recently entered a juried show, had 3 pieces accepted, and I am hoping to begin to sell pieces occasionally once I retire from teaching (in the classroom the past 44 years and looking to teach a few more).
Click to expand...
You got a little room to crop...
 
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My point of view may be controversial but here it goes. I apologize if this came across as being cross. My intent is not to be confrontational or cross. My wife frequently tells me my writing style is too blunt my intent is not to be so.
  • Yes, filing the frame to the extent possible will generally offer sharper higher resolution images. That is a fact. However, the old "rules" from the film days and early digital days are no longer rules but guidelines.
  • The room to crop when using an 8mpx sensor and the room to crop using a 45mpx sensor are vastly different things. Cropping a 35mm slide to a print also has a lot more limitations than we have with the images captured by modern camera sensors.
  • Frequently with wildlife and nature photography, "crop with your feet" is simply not a viable option.
  • In some areas, it is against rules to go off a trail (sensitive ecological areas, personal safety, whatever).
  • Sometimes the creature being photographed is on private property and trespassing is illegal. Frequently, the subject is fleeting (birds on a branch, deer in a field, mink hunting alongside a stream, whatever). There is no time to "zoom with your feet" or changing to a longer lens isn't an option.
  • Another consideration is safety of the photographer and safety of the creature being photographed. We do not want to cause undue stress to the animals or do things that can drastically change their behavior or put them at risk (i.e. forcing a deer to run across a busy road).
  • Most are already using the longest lenses we own and can afford.

  • As for cropping being considered "cheating" which I hear bantered about with friends from time to time. I say that is hogwash.
  • Some of the most celebrated photographers in history were not only creative photographers, but were masters in the darkroom (Ansel Adams comes to mind).
  • If those heralded photographers from our past had tools like Lightroom, Photoshop, Affinity Photo, etc. available they would have used them to create their art.
  • Just because we have access to tools our predecessors lacked, there is no reason to assume we're being "purists" by avoiding their use. I think I can safely say Mr. Adams would have used any tools at his disposal to capture and produce the images he wanted.
  • Personally, I think the self flagellating about using post-processing tools is a misguided effort to hold onto something that never was.

To answer the original question about cropping. I crop to the extent necessary to generate the image I want to publish, print or share. If the subject is so small in the frame that it becomes unsharp or the resolution is so sparse to not make it look right, well there is the delete key on my keyboard that gets used frequently.

Jeff
 
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Coming from a D500 and D850, now using a Z9 on FX - I crop. Wholesale if necessary.
Zooming with my feet isn't an option at the best of times (sitting in a hide, shooting from a vehicle in a National park where you aren't allowed outside your vehicle as lions roam about, And buying a 800 isn't an option - I probably couldn't even lift it up. :ROFLMAO:
 
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jeffnles1 said:
My point of view may be controversial but here it goes. I apologize if this came across as being cross. My intent is not to be confrontational or cross. My wife frequently tells me my writing style is too blunt my intent is not to be so.
  • Yes, filing the frame to the extent possible will generally offer sharper higher resolution images. That is a fact. However, the old "rules" from the film days and early digital days are no longer rules but guidelines.
  • The room to crop when using an 8mpx sensor and the room to crop using a 45mpx sensor are vastly different things. Cropping a 35mm slide to a print also has a lot more limitations than we have with the images captured by modern camera sensors.
  • Frequently with wildlife and nature photography, "crop with your feet" is simply not a viable option.
  • In some areas, it is against rules to go off a trail (sensitive ecological areas, personal safety, whatever).
  • Sometimes the creature being photographed is on private property and trespassing is illegal. Frequently, the subject is fleeting (birds on a branch, deer in a field, mink hunting alongside a stream, whatever). There is no time to "zoom with your feet" or changing to a longer lens isn't an option.
  • Another consideration is safety of the photographer and safety of the creature being photographed. We do not want to cause undue stress to the animals or do things that can drastically change their behavior or put them at risk (i.e. forcing a deer to run across a busy road).
  • Most are already using the longest lenses we own and can afford.

  • As for cropping being considered "cheating" which I hear bantered about with friends from time to time. I say that is hogwash.
  • Some of the most celebrated photographers in history were not only creative photographers, but were masters in the darkroom (Ansel Adams comes to mind).
  • If those heralded photographers from our past had tools like Lightroom, Photoshop, Affinity Photo, etc. available they would have used them to create their art.
  • Just because we have access to tools our predecessors lacked, there is no reason to assume we're being "purists" by avoiding their use. I think I can safely say Mr. Adams would have used any tools at his disposal to capture and produce the images he wanted.
  • Personally, I think the self flagellating about using post-processing tools is a misguided effort to hold onto something that never was.

To answer the original question about cropping. I crop to the extent necessary to generate the image I want to publish, print or share. If the subject is so small in the frame that it becomes unsharp or the resolution is so sparse to not make it look right, well there is the delete key on my keyboard that gets used frequently.

Jeff
Click to expand...
I don't consider your point of view controversial or cross at all; it's simply honest and to the point. Many of the points you make are conversations I've had with myself...then again old habits are hard to break! Thank you for your input.
 
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Winston Churchill said:
Coming from a D500 and D850, now using a Z9 on FX - I crop. Wholesale if necessary.
Zooming with my feet isn't an option at the best of times (sitting in a hide, shooting from a vehicle in a National park where you aren't allowed outside your vehicle as lions roam about, And buying a 800 isn't an option - I probably couldn't even lift it up. :ROFLMAO:
Click to expand...
I doubt I'll ever crop wholesale...and, man, I wish that 800 PF was in my budget!
 
I think cropping is also for aesthetic or compositional purposes. In post I usually run through, at least mentally, the usual aspect ratios between square and 2:1. So I'll see how 3:2, 4:3, 4:5 look and pick one. As far as cropping because I am too far away or serendipitously find a portion of a full image more appealing, then I'll see if the ai stuff gives a good result. If not then I just enjoy being outside in a nice place. We can only shoot with the gear we have with us now. We make the best of it and dream of better gear for next time.

But it sounds like it bothers you (the OP) so why not see if you can get closer or get a longer, better lens? Just remember atmospherics is going to be an even bigger factor, plus you have to carry that heavy stuff around.
 
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jeffnles1 said:
My point of view may be controversial but here it goes. I apologize if this came across as being cross. My intent is not to be confrontational or cross. My wife frequently tells me my writing style is too blunt my intent is not to be so.
  • Yes, filing the frame to the extent possible will generally offer sharper higher resolution images. That is a fact. However, the old "rules" from the film days and early digital days are no longer rules but guidelines.
  • The room to crop when using an 8mpx sensor and the room to crop using a 45mpx sensor are vastly different things. Cropping a 35mm slide to a print also has a lot more limitations than we have with the images captured by modern camera sensors.
  • Frequently with wildlife and nature photography, "crop with your feet" is simply not a viable option.
  • In some areas, it is against rules to go off a trail (sensitive ecological areas, personal safety, whatever).
  • Sometimes the creature being photographed is on private property and trespassing is illegal. Frequently, the subject is fleeting (birds on a branch, deer in a field, mink hunting alongside a stream, whatever). There is no time to "zoom with your feet" or changing to a longer lens isn't an option.
  • Another consideration is safety of the photographer and safety of the creature being photographed. We do not want to cause undue stress to the animals or do things that can drastically change their behavior or put them at risk (i.e. forcing a deer to run across a busy road).
  • Most are already using the longest lenses we own and can afford.

  • As for cropping being considered "cheating" which I hear bantered about with friends from time to time. I say that is hogwash.
  • Some of the most celebrated photographers in history were not only creative photographers, but were masters in the darkroom (Ansel Adams comes to mind).
  • If those heralded photographers from our past had tools like Lightroom, Photoshop, Affinity Photo, etc. available they would have used them to create their art.
  • Just because we have access to tools our predecessors lacked, there is no reason to assume we're being "purists" by avoiding their use. I think I can safely say Mr. Adams would have used any tools at his disposal to capture and produce the images he wanted.
  • Personally, I think the self flagellating about using post-processing tools is a misguided effort to hold onto something that never was.

To answer the original question about cropping. I crop to the extent necessary to generate the image I want to publish, print or share. If the subject is so small in the frame that it becomes unsharp or the resolution is so sparse to not make it look right, well there is the delete key on my keyboard that gets used frequently.

Jeff
Click to expand...
Jeff, you nailed it on the first try. I remember one of the earliest forums on the net was run by a “my way or the highway” photographer who would belittle anyone who cropped or didn’t “get it right in the camera” or dared to use virtually any type of post processing. Then one day he discovered this miraculous thing called Photoshop and suddenly it was ok to post process. See if you can guess who that guy is.
 
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bleirer said:
I think cropping is also for aesthetic or compositional purposes. In post I usually run through, at least mentally, the usual aspect ratios between square and 2:1. So I'll see how 3:2, 4:3, 4:5 look and pick one. As far as cropping because I am too far away or serendipitously find a portion of a full image more appealing, then I'll see if the ai stuff gives a good result. If not then I just enjoy being outside in a nice place. We can only shoot with the gear we have with us now. We make the best of it and dream of better gear for next time.

But it sounds like it bothers you (the OP) so why not see if you can get closer or get a longer, better lens? Just remember atmospherics is going to be an even bigger factor, plus you have to carry that heavy stuff around.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your response. I will always, within the parameters of what is allowed in a specific area and without disrupting/disturbing the wildlife I am photographing) try to get closer and align the composition I have in mind with what I am seeing in the viewfinder. It's not always possible (the reason behind my question) and, to date, I've tended simply not to shoot in the instances where it hasn't been. With the Z9 I am wondering if I need to rethink that.
 
coachjohn57 said:
Thank you for your response. I will always, within the parameters of what is allowed in a specific area and without disrupting/disturbing the wildlife I am photographing) try to get closer and align the composition I have in mind with what I am seeing in the viewfinder. It's not always possible (the reason behind my question) and, to date, I've tended simply not to shoot in the instances where it hasn't been. With the Z9 I am wondering if I need to rethink that.
Click to expand...

I'd think it would be about the same image quality if using same or similar lens. You get 19 megapixels for the z9 crop area or the d850 crop mode but 21 megapixels on the d500. So basically the same. But you get the improved autofocus and frame rate of the z9. Better than standing around with my hands in my pockets.
 
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coachjohn57 said:
The vast majority of my images aren’t cropped; my Father, one of my early mentors in photography, always advised me to “crop with your feet or crop with your lens…get it right in the camera”, a lesson that stuck with me from those early years as a pre-teen using film to my days using digital. One of Steve’s videos seemed to reinforce that same idea.

Over the last three years or so, as I’ve moved more and more into bird photography, I’m finding that more and more challenging; get frame filling images of birds, particularly birds in flight is challenging (my longest lens is my 500PF). To date, other than straightening the horizon on some images, I still tend to shoot to fill the frame within the confines of my hoped for composition (another aspect of BIF that is challenging), yet I also know that that leaves shots on the table so to speak. There are many wonderful photographers in this forum; how do you approach it and why?
Click to expand...
Oh hell, any photographer who says he never crops is either lying or a saint. To paraphrase Bill Clinton, “I didn’t have cropping with that image!”
 
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Abinoone said:
Oh hell, any photographer who says he never crops is either lying or a saint. To paraphrase Bill Clinton, “I didn’t have cropping with that image!”
Click to expand...
Thank you for your comment. I'm not a liar or a saint...yet I can honestly say that that is, to date, with the exception of straightening the horizon and maybe a handful of exceptions over the years, my reality. It's been a matter of discipline for me (and habit) as I tend to print large and want to make the most of the resolution any give body offers. I guess my train of thought has always been, "Why have all of these pixels if I'm going to throw half of them away?". The Z9's combination of speed, resolution and AF (and the same could be said of the A1, etc.) is changing my mind a bit, although I will crop as minimally as possible.
 
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bleirer said:
I'd think it would be about the same image quality if using same or similar lens. You get 19 megapixels for the z9 crop area or the d850 crop mode but 21 megapixels on the d500. So basically the same. But you get the improved autofocus and frame rate of the z9. Better than standing around with my hands in my pockets.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your response and insight.
 
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coachjohn57 said:
The vast majority of my images aren’t cropped; my Father, one of my early mentors in photography, always advised me to “crop with your feet or crop with your lens…get it right in the camera”, a lesson that stuck with me from those early years as a pre-teen using film to my days using digital. One of Steve’s videos seemed to reinforce that same idea.

Over the last three years or so, as I’ve moved more and more into bird photography, I’m finding that more and more challenging; get frame filling images of birds, particularly birds in flight is challenging (my longest lens is my 500PF). To date, other than straightening the horizon on some images, I still tend to shoot to fill the frame within the confines of my hoped for composition (another aspect of BIF that is challenging), yet I also know that that leaves shots on the table so to speak. There are many wonderful photographers in this forum; how do you approach it and why?
Click to expand...

I try to get a reasonably large image so I am not cropping a lot but I view cropping as fine tuning my image. I would rather crop than toss a lot of images because I clipped the wing. Plus cropping, especially w/ BIF, allows me to adjust the composition.

And a times I can not get close enough to my subject to get a full frame image (either because there is a physical barrier or a do not enter sign). Also if the subject, i.e., BIF, is flying towards and I have prime lens there is only a small distance where it will fill the frame. Before it is too small and as it gets closer, it becomes too large.
 
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RichF said:
I try to get a reasonably large image so I am not cropping a lot but I view cropping as fine tuning my image. I would rather crop than toss a lot of images because I clipped the wing. Plus cropping, especially w/ BIF, allows me to adjust the composition.

And a times I can not get close enough to my subject to get a full frame image (either because there is a physical barrier or a do not enter sign). Also if the subject, i.e., BIF, is flying towards and I have prime lens there is only a small distance where it will fill the frame. Before it is too small and as it gets closer, it becomes too large.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your advice, Rich....it all makes sense.
 
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