Same focusing problem on all mirrorless cameras?

[fcotterill]

But you still have to fiddle with the AF/MF switch... but regardless of how you use MF, AF is always going to be faster.

The AF-Near/AF-Far setup seems so obvious once you try it. I don't understand why so many photographers are completely befuddled by the concept.

Welcome to this forum
If I understand the Lumix setup, the closest option in Nikon ILCs is to assign 2 buttons to save and recall a preset point of focus. To best of my knowledge, this was originally designed for sports photography with Nikon's telephotos with AF in the SLRs and then DSLRs....

And it's taken on a wider usage in the Nikon Z focusing system, particularly if the camera AF clings to the background and cannot 'see' the much closer subject. So it's very useful with a Z9 to recover focus instantly on a close subject.... muscle memory permitting that is.

There are different ways of doing this on Z versus F mount lenses, and only the f mount telephotos have the 3 position switch that must be set to the memory recall position.

 

[Tom Reynolds]

Nikon and Sony do use hybrid Phase Detect/Contrast Detect AF. The focus is further refined at a speed of 120 times per second in the Z8 and Z9.

In the case of cross sensors, it's just not necessary in the latest cameras. The camera uses nearly 4 million pixels to look for subject matter and contrast in order to focus.

My understanding is that the cross-sensor 20mp OM-1, Sensor, the 45MP A1 and Z8/Z9 sensors and the 45mp non stacked dual pixel R5 all are very good at AF and the differences are mostly software.

 

[EricBowles]

My understanding is that the cross-sensor 20mp OM-1, Sensor, the 45MP A1 and Z8/Z9 sensors and the 45mp non stacked dual pixel R5 all are very good at AF and the differences are mostly software.

I would largely agree with that although a 20 MP sensor is quite different in some aspects. There are some differences in sensor readout that relate to the sensor design and these can relate to functionality, performance or limitations. Each company tries to do things that mitigate any shortcomings while emphasizing the strengths.

 

[Doug Herr]

My understanding is that the cross-sensor 20mp OM-1, Sensor, the 45MP A1 and Z8/Z9 sensors and the 45mp non stacked dual pixel R5 all are very good at AF and the differences are mostly software.

the a1 is 50MP

 

[Ken Miracle]

Welcome to this forum
If I understand the Lumix setup, the closest in Nikon is to assign 2 buttons to save and recall a preset point of focus. To best of my knowledge, this was originally designed for sports photography with SLRs then DSLRs....

There are different ways of doing this on Z versus F mount lenses, and only the f mount telephotos have the memory recall function. I find it's very useful with a Z9 to recover focus instantly on a close subject.... muscle memory permitting that is.

Memory recall is available on the Z800 I do not know about the Z400 and 600 TC lenses. Info about it is on page 28 of the Z800 reference guide. I have mine programmed for a different function to toggle back and forth between fx/dx and use the other 2 lens function buttons occasionally to set a preset focus point and then return to that point quickly if desired. I just seldom use that feature.

the a1 is 50MP

Per Sony A1 50.1 per Nikon Z9 45.7 ... at those levels we start splitting hairs and either will give amazing resolution of said split hair

 

[JoelKlein]

My understanding is that the cross-sensor 20mp OM-1, Sensor, the 45MP A1 and Z8/Z9 sensors and the 45mp non stacked dual pixel R5 all are very good at AF and the differences are mostly software.

If it’s just software, they should be able to figure out the problem with horizontal only subjects. As long one has to slightly tilt the camera to help the AF, the problem isn’t solved.

 

[Cliff LeSergent]

Welcome to this forum
If I understand the Lumix setup, the closest option in Nikon ILCs is to assign 2 buttons to save and recall a preset point of focus. To best of my knowledge, this was originally designed for sports photography with Nikon's telephotos with AF in the SLRs and then DSLRs....

And it's taken on a wider usage in the Nikon Z focusing system, particularly if the camera AF clings to the background and cannot 'see' the much closer subject. So it's very useful with a Z9 to recover focus instantly on a close subject.... muscle memory permitting that is.

There are different ways of doing this on Z versus F mount lenses, and only the f mount telephotos have the 3 position switch that must be set to the memory recall position.

No reason you can't have both - the Near-AF/Far-AF button setup as well as the preset focus distance.

 

[bleirer]

But you still have to fiddle with the AF/MF switch... but regardless of how you use MF, AF is always going to be faster.

The AF-Near/AF-Far setup seems so obvious once you try it. I don't understand why so many photographers are completely befuddled by the concept.

I'm not sure what you mean by the switch? On my canon manual focus is engaged just by turning the focus ring, don't all cameras do this? I do have a button to turn AF off if I want focusing guides or peaking to be active.

 

[ARClark]

I read in several threads that mirrorless cameras have a difficult time focusing on small objects, birds specifically, at times. This is most apparent when focusing first in the distance, then trying to re-focus on an object that is closer to the photographer.

I have never noticed this on my ancient D500.

Can this be problematic for bird photography? Don't want to find out after buying a Z9.

Many thanks.

I've been shooting small birds with a Z9 almost everyday since January 2022. I very much like the camera and use it over my D850 as its positive attributes outweigh some shortcomings. But yes, the Z is typically unable to focus on an out-of-focus perched bird (or other small isolated subject) in the foreground when trying to focus from a more distant focus setting. And yes, it's an annoyance. In my experience, it doesn't matter what AF mode. Wide area without subject detection at least tries, but it's not comparable to a DSLR like the D500, D850 or D5/6. I work around it by one of several different means including 1) manually focusing to get it in the ballpark and then using AF, 2) aiming at a nearby subject that fills the frame (e.g. ground/tree trunk/etc.) and focusing to get the approximate right distance and then aiming at the bird to AF or 3) recalling a close up distance setting from the lens via a memory button on the lens barrel (certain F or Z lenses) or pressing a control like an Fn button on the camera (works with certain Z lenses on the Z9) and then aiming at the subject and using AF. I've found that 3 works best and quickest. Interestingly, the Z9 is able to acquire and find focus quite consistently if focusing from near to far. It's the focusing from far to near when trying to acquire a small isolated subject where I encounter the trouble. A good example is a robin on a branch at 15-20 feet. With a DSLR, you can aim at the orangy out-of-focus blob in the foreground and let single point or group AF search and focus on it. With the Z, it stays locked on the background until something is done jog it to the foreground. Unfortunately, NIkon does not include a close-range focus limiter setting on the telephotos like in the past, which might be helpful.

 

[DRwyoming]

Unfortunately, NIkon does not include a close-range focus limiter setting on the telephotos like in the past, which might be helpful.

Agreed, Nikon has had far distance focus limiters on their long lenses for decades but I've often wanted a close limit option as well for situations like working from blinds or shooting small birds or small mammals where I'll never want the lens to focus out near infinity.

 

[Ken Miracle]

I've been shooting small birds with a Z9 almost everyday since January 2022. I very much like the camera and use it over my D850 as its positive attributes outweigh some shortcomings. But yes, the Z is typically unable to focus on an out-of-focus perched bird (or other small isolated subject) in the foreground when trying to focus from a more distant focus setting. And yes, it's an annoyance. In my experience, it doesn't matter what AF mode. Wide area without subject detection at least tries, but it's not comparable to a DSLR like the D500, D850 or D5/6. I work around it by one of several different means including 1) manually focusing to get it in the ballpark and then using AF, 2) aiming at a nearby subject that fills the frame (e.g. ground/tree trunk/etc.) and focusing to get the approximate right distance and then aiming at the bird to AF or 3) recalling a close up distance setting from the lens via a memory button on the lens barrel (certain F or Z lenses) or pressing a control like an Fn button on the camera (works with certain Z lenses on the Z9) and then aiming at the subject and using AF. I've found that 3 works best and quickest. Interestingly, the Z9 is able to acquire and find focus quite consistently if focusing from near to far. It's the focusing from far to near when trying to acquire a small isolated subject where I encounter the trouble. A good example is a robin on a branch at 15-20 feet. With a DSLR, you can aim at the orangy out-of-focus blob in the foreground and let single point or group AF search and focus on it. With the Z, it stays locked on the background until something is done jog it to the foreground. Unfortunately, NIkon does not include a close-range focus limiter setting on the telephotos like in the past, which might be helpful.

I have this happen fairly infrequently anymore with the Z9 and Z800 combo. If I am heading to a small distant bird even hundreds of feet away I switch to DX mode if not already there and that is a push of the memory set button on the Z800 that I have programmed to toggle FX/DX. I also have gotten in the habit if I have been focusing on something way out there that I switch back to fX and refocus on something closer before heading off for the next target bird of opportunity.

I also think I have become so used to the fast workarounds for the situation when it does happen that I do not even think about it anymore. I seldom use the function buttons I have set up on on my lens, although that works. I usually either turn the manual focus ring to quickly gain focus on the "orange blob" or I focus first on a big branch, the tree trunk etc that you mention or even the power line wire it is sitting on and then slide the focus to the bird.

 

[ARClark]

Agreed, Nikon has had far distance focus limiters on their long lenses for decades but I've often wanted a close limit option as well for situations like working from blinds or shooting small birds or small mammals where I'll never want the lens to focus out near infinity.

Yea, it’s strange. My old 500 f4 afs-ii had close, mid and far ranges. And third party 150-600s zooms also have the close range.

I have this happen fairly infrequently anymore with the Z9 and Z800 combo. If I am heading to a small distant bird even hundreds of feet away I switch to DX mode if not already there and that is a push of the memory set button on the Z800 that I have programmed to toggle FX/DX. I also have gotten in the habit if I have been focusing on something way out there that I switch back to fX and refocus on something closer before heading off for the next target bird of opportunity.

I also think I have become so used to the fast workarounds for the situation when it does happen that I do not even think about it anymore. I seldom use the function buttons I have set up on on my lens, although that works. I usually either turn the manual focus ring to quickly gain focus on the "orange blob" or I focus first on a big branch, the tree trunk etc that you mention or even the power line wire it is sitting on and then slide the focus to the bird.

I agree about the lens function buttons. I like the concept, but I never use them. I find them very inconvenient when I hold the lens in a comfortable position, and I don’t want to change my grip to accommodate using them. But I love using the Fn2 button on the camera body to recall the 800 PF’s MFD.

I think the issue I have is with this is buying a flagship camera that can’t handle a simple AF function that I took for granted on the DSLRs and that I need almost daily. The firmware updates have helped for larger subjects. Hope they continue to refine it through firmware, or make whatever changes that would be needed in the sensor in future upgrades.

 

[Ken Miracle]

Yea, it’s strange. My old 500 f4 afs-ii had close, mid and far ranges. And third party 150-600s zooms also have the close range.

I agree about the lens function buttons. I like the concept, but I never use them. I find them very inconvenient when I hold the lens in a comfortable position, and I don’t want to change my grip to accommodate using them. But I love using the Fn2 button on the camera body to recall the 800 PF’s MFD.

I think the issue I have is with this is buying a flagship camera that can’t handle a simple AF function that I took for granted on the DSLRs and that I need almost daily. The firmware updates have helped for larger subjects. Hope they continue to refine it through firmware, or make whatever changes that would be needed in the sensor in future upgrades.

I think I remember that close range option on my Tamron G2 150-600 and also on my Sigma 60-600 sport.

I use a target rifle hold for pretty much all lenses that have a lens foot. I use a longer Hejnar replacement foot and rest it in the palm of my hand and on the 800pf the control ring and manual focus ring are at my finger tips. The lens function buttons are less accessible. The memory set button is the easy to get to button hence why I have it set to the fx/dx toggle since I use that a lot in my run and gun bird ID bird photography.

Shutter half press is wide area custom 1 @ 5x3, vid record toggles subject recognition on and off by using recall shooting functions hold with only that on it. My AFON button is set to 3D + AF-ON, FN 1 to wide area custom 2 @ 1x1 very good for little birds in the trees and bushes, FN 2 is AF Area mode + AF on good for BIF. After FW 3.1 I still use hand off from shutter button to the other buttons but I now I frequently go directly to the other buttons.

Even before the firmware 3 series I was getting equal to or better overall performance including AF performance with the Z9 and Z800 combo than I did with D6 and 600 f/4E the closest between the 2 was AF.

 

[NorthernFocus]

Much of what is posted about mirrorless cameras having problems is overblown and not remotely applicable to the Z9/Z8 and other flagship bodies or those with the same tech. If true it goes back to the much older generation of mirrorless models.

In addition I think the camera companies are victims of their own success and/or marketing. All of the hoopla about eye detection etc has created unrealistic expectations. People point the camera in the general direction of a subject that fills 5 percent of the frame and expect the camera to lock on. To the eyes no less. Also people's selective memory seems to only remember the perfectly focused shots they took with DSLR and forget about the thousands of frames they sent to the electronic bin. I readily admit I had unrealistic expectations when I made the switch(plus the Z9 AF did suck prior to fw v2). But when I encounter any equipment problem my first assumption is that it is operator error. Then proceed to understand what I'm doing wrong and why.

The only "problem" that MILC have with AF is the unwillingness/inability of users to learn how to use something new and different than their DSLR.

 

[Ken Miracle]

In addition I think the camera companies are victims of their own success and/or marketing. All of the hoopla about eye detection etc has created unrealistic expectations. People point the camera in the general direction of a subject that fills 5 percent of the frame and expect the camera to lock on. To the eyes no less. Also people's selective memory seems to only remember the perfectly focused shots they took with DSLR and forget about the thousands of frames they sent to the electronic bin. I readily admit I had unrealistic expectations when I made the switch(plus the Z9 AF did suck prior to fw v2). But when I encounter any equipment problem my first assumption is that it is operator error. Then proceed to understand what I'm doing wrong and why.

The only "problem" that MILC have with AF is the unwillingness/inability of users to learn how to use something new and different than their DSLR.

I was quite lucky to have a wise pro, teacher and camera store owner who had been reluctant to go mirrorless make the switch when the Z9 came out and he gave me some great advice. Start with keeping it simple using single point AF-C and small or medium dynamic range (that kept subject recognition out of the picture) and learn how to tell the camera to do what you want it to do. And as always his parting advice shoot at least a little every day.

I only had the Z9 for a fairly short time before FW V2 came along and by then I was used to what the Z9 could do compared to my D6 with no subject tracking/eye detection dreams dancing in my head .

Now with that back ground and in the time of FW v3.1 subject tracking is a valuable tool in the big basket of tools that is the Z9.

 

[agrumpyoldsod]

In addition I think the camera companies are victims of their own success and/or marketing. All of the hoopla about eye detection etc has created unrealistic expectations. People point the camera in the general direction of a subject that fills 5 percent of the frame and expect the camera to lock on. To the eyes no less. Also people's selective memory seems to only remember the perfectly focused shots they took with DSLR and forget about the thousands of frames they sent to the electronic bin. I readily admit I had unrealistic expectations when I made the switch(plus the Z9 AF did suck prior to fw v2). But when I encounter any equipment problem my first assumption is that it is operator error. Then proceed to understand what I'm doing wrong and why.

The only "problem" that MILC have with AF is the unwillingness/inability of users to learn how to use something new and different than their DSLR.

I would add the caveat == some people == some people appear to want the camera to take the photo for them
Whereas others work out what the camera actually does and its limits and works within them.

BTW - try the eye detection with Human Subjects you will be staggered how good it is.

I am irritated by folk who have to have the camera lock on to [typically] a bird 2 miles away when it is smaller than the focus point and stayed locked on until finally it is large enough take an image of. Often still far far too small in the frame, resulting in vastly over cropped and over enlarged images. Blaming the camera when it does not do what they dreamed it would do - no matter how crazy the dream is.

Rather like anyone expecting to use a hybrid camera without active cooling to recorded for hours and hours without overheating.

We clearly are in an era of unrealistic expectations - and instantly posting "issues" or "bugs" when more often than not the poster did not read the manual, follow the instructions or took the camera outside its design parameters [limits].

What has improved -- helped enormously by CIPA and its members -- is that all cameras are described using defined terms and CIPA members are required to conduct standardised tests to be able to state anything about key features -- YES it matters not whether or not these tests reflect how one person or another may actually use the camera -- at least they are standardised. These include IBIS/VR performance, battery life and a host of other tests. Yes obviously the manufacturers are going to put footnotes and these describe the conditions they used for a test.

Pro-level gear needs a pro-level approach -- just sticking it in Auto is staggeringly nieve and driven by an agenda.

 

[NorthernFocus]

BTW - try the eye detection with Human Subjects you will be staggered how good it is.

The only reason I gutted it out with the early Z9 is because early on I shot a high school soccer match and was blown away by the the subject detection worked. I figured it was just a matter of time until they sorted it for wildlife. In the meantime I had a brief affair with a Sony A1

 

[Ken Miracle]

I would add the caveat == some people == some people appear to want the camera to take the photo for them
Whereas others work out what the camera actually does and its limits and works within them.

BTW - try the eye detection with Human Subjects you will be staggered how good it is.

I am irritated by folk who have to have the camera lock on to [typically] a bird 2 miles away when it is smaller than the focus point and stayed locked on until finally it is large enough take an image of. Often still far far too small in the frame, resulting in vastly over cropped and over enlarged images. Blaming the camera when it does not do what they dreamed it would do - no matter how crazy the dream is.

Rather like anyone expecting to use a hybrid camera without active cooling to recorded for hours and hours without overheating.

We clearly are in an era of unrealistic expectations - and instantly posting "issues" or "bugs" when more often than not the poster did not read the manual, follow the instructions or took the camera outside its design parameters [limits].

What has improved -- helped enormously by CIPA and its members -- is that all cameras are described using defined terms and CIPA members are required to conduct standardised tests to be able to state anything about key features -- YES it matters not whether or not these tests reflect how one person or another may actually use the camera -- at least they are standardised. These include IBIS/VR performance, battery life and a host of other tests. Yes obviously the manufacturers are going to put footnotes and these describe the conditions they used for a test.

Pro-level gear needs a pro-level approach -- just sticking it in Auto is staggeringly nieve and driven by an agenda.

Yes the first time I turned on subject detection it was for people and my wife,with glasses on, walking toward me through shade and sun ... it blew me away.

I do not photograph a lot of people but I am the "official" photographer at our church and photograph in a lot of variable light and conditions and subject detection for people is pretty much flawless.

 

[agrumpyoldsod]

I am amazed that YT "reviewers" make a point that camera x sticks to the back of a person's head better than a Z8/Z9 or grabs focus on a BIF when it is so tiny I cannot see it. What amazes me is that YT reviewers consider these are shots any normal user would want to take.

I tend to wait for the subject's face to be in view and the subject to be larger in the frame than the head of a pin at long distance before I take my shots -- perhaps it is just me.

Personally I have had no issues shooting humans or wildlife -- but one needs to understand when AF and SD works best and when it works less well or is just likely to miss -- so that one can deploy alternative options AF or MF -- and with the Z8/Z9 these are litteral available under our fingers. Well if you can be bothered to set up your camera properly and build the muscle memory such that you are not fumbling about while action is happening.
(I cannot remember which of Steve's rules this one is -- but it is NO 1 for me).