Soft Sony images compared to Nikon

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It is at least an A!

I wonder if by going to f/8 more of the bird, and more of the midges would have been as tack sharp as the head and the midges below in the same focal plane. Any camera or lens that can take sharp images of midges in flight (just below the bird) is pretty incredible!

It seems every shot I take now is a "what if"?
 
I just posted on facebook tonight my impressions after one week of owning and using the Sony A1 and 200-600 with and without the 1.4x teleconverter. 4 images illustrate my points.
Sony A1

Regarding sharpness of the combination, check out this post by Art Morris of an image and 100% crop of the 200-600 with 2x teleconverter here.
And here. I would not have even thought to even try a 2x with the lens.
 
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I just posted on facebook tonight my impressions after one week of owning and using the Sony A1 and 200-600 with and without the 1.4x teleconverter. 4 images illustrate my points.
Sony A1

Regarding sharpness of the combination, check out this post by Art Morris of an image and 100% crop of the 200-600 with 2x teleconverter here.
And here. I would not have even thought to even try a 2x with the lens.

I think TCs have a new life because of mirrorless. The focus is just more accurate (in my experience) compared to DSLRs. For me the TCs are completely usable with the 200-600 if used with correct expectations, namely not expecting TCs to work miracles over unreasonable distances.

1.4x and 2x TC galleries for what it’s worth

 
My First Thoughts were... You Big Show-off 😂😂

I think what you are experiencing is being stunned by the Sony “Experience“

The first time I took my a9 out with the 100-400 Sony lens I was so impressed by the focus tracking that I started looking for ways to fault Sony. After all, I have lots of dollars thrown at Nikon gear, and couldn’t believe that Sony could be so freaking good.

Stay the course; you’ll get over this feeling... and keep hoping with the rest of us that Nikon will eventually produce some lightweight gear that can focus accurately and produce images like the one you posted.
 
Ex long-time Nikon shooter here. Just finished switching completely to Sony (a1 & 200-600). The 200-600G is an amazing performer for a consumer zoom, but it is what it is and IQ comes up well short of Nikon's best primes and the mid-range 500PF, especially in terms of contrast due to the lack of pro coatings. Also, the inside of the hood on the 200-600 is painted, not flocked, which reduces contrast if you're pointing anywhere remotely towards the sun. (I've ordered special camera flocking material for mine). So if you're used to, say, the Nikon 500PF which I think many Nikon shooters are, then the Sony 200-600G isn't going to look all that great in comparison IMO. Since I don't really want to spend $17k CAD on a 600GM, I can only hope Sony release some mid-range options to fill the gap between the 200-600G and their GM primes. Either that, or a 5lb 500/4GM. :)
 
A very interesting discussion, and one that touches on something that has amazed me over these past few years. The concentration on first megapixel count, and later on (with mirrorless) AF automation or tracking performance, seems to have completely pushed the awareness of true optical quality and the many aspects that go with that, from the table. 10 years back 500mm f4 prime lenses were still highly regarded, and when I visited (printed) images on display from someone using e.g. a Nikon D3 and 500mm f4 lens, I marvelled at the graphic quality of these prints.
Even today, my favorite images to look at are from the Nikon D5/D850/D500 stable with the 400/500/600E lenses. I rarely if ever have to put in an effort to simply love the look of these images, much more so than images from the current mirrorless champions. Surely these (mirrorless) images are sharp, are perfectly in focus, show all tiny details, and still it does not come as easy to simply like the way they look and the mood they bring across.
A lens like the Sony 200-600 is often said to be "as sharp as or sharper than the Canon 500mm f4". I see posts on forums by people that sold their Nikon 500E for it, and I simply cannot grasp it, because I very rarely like the look, mood or graphic qualities of images taken with this lens in the way I do, without having to work for it, like images from the D500 with the 500E lens.

I am wondering if the lack of shutter/mirror induced blur and the perfect in-focus have made people believe that the optical quality of a true high end prime lens has become redundant, but there is a lot more going on than just perfect in-focus non-blurred sharpness with a true high end optic. Quality of contrast, color, bokeh, all the way to how a lens/camara combo captures the light and mood of a scene, I feel it is becoming less and less relevant, and people lose the judgement of these qualities, or simply have lost the apetite or ability to see the differences. To me, Sony has not reached Nikon level contrast quality overall, and contrast is a very important factor in imaging. It is one of the reasons why Zeiss became so big. I shoot the Sony A7RII as my general camera, but with the Zeiss Loxia 25mm for just the one reason: quality of color and contrast.
In the same fashion I am soon doing something I believe no-one in their right mind will do in this day and age: I will add a newly bought Nikon 500mm f4E FL to the 500PF for use on my D500. Simply because I would rather come home with 20 succesfull images from the D500+500E combo, than 1000 perfectly in-focus images from the Sony A1+200-600G.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, they are very clear and do make sense. I think you described my feeling that it "is not like my Nikon 500mm" is a way I could not have but I think you nailed it.

Thanks!
 
It is at least an A!

I wonder if by going to f/8 more of the bird, and more of the midges would have been as tack sharp as the head and the midges below in the same focal plane. Any camera or lens that can take sharp images of midges in flight (just below the bird) is pretty incredible!

It seems every shot I take now is a "what if"?

I totally agree, what this combo did is amazing....
 
I think TCs have a new life because of mirrorless. The focus is just more accurate (in my experience) compared to DSLRs. For me the TCs are completely usable with the 200-600 if used with correct expectations, namely not expecting TCs to work miracles over unreasonable distances.

1.4x and 2x TC galleries for what it’s worth


Nice images!! These converters do seem to work ok
 
Ex long-time Nikon shooter here. Just finished switching completely to Sony (a1 & 200-600). The 200-600G is an amazing performer for a consumer zoom, but it is what it is and IQ comes up well short of Nikon's best primes and the mid-range 500PF, especially in terms of contrast due to the lack of pro coatings. Also, the inside of the hood on the 200-600 is painted, not flocked, which reduces contrast if you're pointing anywhere remotely towards the sun. (I've ordered special camera flocking material for mine). So if you're used to, say, the Nikon 500PF which I think many Nikon shooters are, then the Sony 200-600G isn't going to look all that great in comparison IMO. Since I don't really want to spend $17k CAD on a 600GM, I can only hope Sony release some mid-range options to fill the gap between the 200-600G and their GM primes. Either that, or a 5lb 500/4GM. :)

This is indeed the thing I am wondering about. But you're happy with the combo of Sony regardless of letting the 550PF go?
 
A couple of things come to mind. First, I switched from Canon (5D4 + 600 f/4) to Sony (a7R4 + 200-600) and the 200-600 is not quite as sharp. Second, the 61 MP of the a7R4 tends to overwhelm the capabilities of the 200-600. The a1 also has a high MP sensor and this could be showing the limitations of the 200-600. I'm very happy with my switch and if I wasn't retired I'd get the Sony a1 and 600 f/4 to solve everything.
 
I guess you have uploaded the same photo twice!
It's pretty common for folks new to posting images on these boards. The forum software lets you drag and drop or hit CTL-P and open a dialog box to post a photo. But once posted you're then presented with a pair of buttons on the bottom of the page to insert a thumbnail or full sized image. If you hit one of those after bringing in the photo you'll end up posting two copies of the same image.
 
This is indeed the thing I am wondering about. But you're happy with the combo of Sony regardless of letting the 550PF go?
Well, yes and no. :) Obviously I'm not happy to walk away from the IQ and portability of the 500PF. There really isn't anything else like it from any manufacturer, as it uniquely sits between good "consumer" glass but well below uber-expensive pro glass at the cost of one stop of light, and does so with a unique form factor that is unmatched. By anyone.

But for me other things outweighed the unique benefits of the 500PF. The most recent chapter in my personal story starts with the Z7 which introduced me to video. After shooting stills for 15 years video really grabbed my interest. An interesting factoid about video is that IQ isn't the be-all-and-end-all goal like it is for stills; video is more about telling a story with motion which curiously doesn't actually require the very best IQ. But since I still do enjoy good stills AND video, I needed a competent hybrid camera that can actually autofocus wildlife well too, and regretfully Nikon does not offer such a camera, at least not yet. For me, Sony offered the best options in the a1 and 200-600G. Canon, notably, has nothing quite like that combo either.

So the answer is that the a1 and 200-600G meet my personal needs the best. But I would never suggest that in terms of IQ, the a1+200-600 can compete with that of my old D850 and 600E or 500PF. To do that, I'd need Sony's 600GM, and that's not a priority for me right now.
 
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A very interesting discussion, and one that touches on something that has amazed me over these past few years. The concentration on first megapixel count, and later on (with mirrorless) AF automation or tracking performance, seems to have completely pushed the awareness of true optical quality and the many aspects that go with that, from the table. 10 years back 500mm f4 prime lenses were still highly regarded, and when I visited (printed) images on display from someone using e.g. a Nikon D3 and 500mm f4 lens, I marvelled at the graphic quality of these prints.
Even today, my favorite images to look at are from the Nikon D5/D850/D500 stable with the 400/500/600E lenses. I rarely if ever have to put in an effort to simply love the look of these images, much more so than images from the current mirrorless champions. Surely these (mirrorless) images are sharp, are perfectly in focus, show all tiny details, and still it does not come as easy to simply like the way they look and the mood they bring across.
A lens like the Sony 200-600 is often said to be "as sharp as or sharper than the Canon 500mm f4". I see posts on forums by people that sold their Nikon 500E for it, and I simply cannot grasp it, because I very rarely like the look, mood or graphic qualities of images taken with this lens in the way I do, without having to work for it, like images from the D500 with the 500E lens.

I am wondering if the lack of shutter/mirror induced blur and the perfect in-focus have made people believe that the optical quality of a true high end prime lens has become redundant, but there is a lot more going on than just perfect in-focus non-blurred sharpness with a true high end optic. Quality of contrast, color, bokeh, all the way to how a lens/camara combo captures the light and mood of a scene, I feel it is becoming less and less relevant, and people lose the judgement of these qualities, or simply have lost the apetite or ability to see the differences. To me, Sony has not reached Nikon level contrast quality overall, and contrast is a very important factor in imaging. It is one of the reasons why Zeiss became so big. I shoot the Sony A7RII as my general camera, but with the Zeiss Loxia 25mm for just the one reason: quality of color and contrast.
In the same fashion I am soon doing something I believe no-one in their right mind will do in this day and age: I will add a newly bought Nikon 500mm f4E FL to the 500PF for use on my D500. Simply because I would rather come home with 20 succesfull images from the D500+500E combo, than 1000 perfectly in-focus images from the Sony A1+200-600G.
I appreciated your point of view. I have been very impressed by the images I have seen from these Sony Cameras lenses and their ability to capture BIF with such precision. At the same time, my intuition says the images are not realistic and seemed too tweaked. It is the same effect when I run an image through Topaz Sharpening....super effective sharpening but somehow an unreal appearance. I have no evidence to support this but I speculated that they have developed AI algorithms in their chip to manufacture this effect.......I stress....it was only speculation !
 
I have no evidence to support this but I speculated that they have developed AI algorithms in their chip to manufacture this effect.......I stress....it was only speculation !
I highly doubt that, at least for photographers shooting raw images. It would be hard to implement an algorithm that substantially changed the image in terms of sharpness and still delivered as a pre-converted raw file and did so at the kinds of frame rates supported by Sony cameras. Topaz products take a long time to do their magic even on a fast desktop computer, doing that at 10-20+ frames per second in camera and then saving the adjusted image as a raw file would be a very good trick.
 
Can't follow this at all. "the images are not realistic". "an unreal appearance". If you were right you'd have to be talking about a JPG produced from the in camera processing and the settings used can be tweaked by the photographer. I don't understand how these comments could be applied to a RAW image unless there was heavy unrealistic editing.

For example, what is unrealistic about this image. Taken in RAW with some light editing in LrC. No topaz and no noise reduction in LrC either.

The colours are realistic.
_DSC1872--21-SonyA9-2.jpg
You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.
 
I have owned Nikon 400 and 600 primes, the Nikon 200-400, the Sigma 300-800 and now the Sony 200-600. I honestly cannot randomly pick out images, pixel peep at 100% and correctly pick with any accuracy which lens was used (except for the 200-400 with 1.4 teleconverter- but I think I did not have a top quality lens). I prefer zooms for the compositional flexibility. Composition trumps theoretical or measured resolution differences that I can't see. The main advantage of primes was AF responsiveness due to wider apertures, but that is now disappearing with the mirrorless AF technology.
Erkesphoto.com
 
Can't follow this at all. "the images are not realistic". "an unreal appearance". If you were right you'd have to be talking about a JPG produced from the in camera processing and the settings used can be tweaked by the photographer. I don't understand how these comments could be applied to a RAW image unless there was heavy unrealistic editing.

For example, what is unrealistic about this image. Taken in RAW with some light editing in LrC. No topaz and no noise reduction in LrC either.

The colours are realistic.View attachment 18201
I think what ChrisM was referring to was that each camera manufacturers sensor and software produces different raw files with different qualities, and due to this he prefers one make over another as they appear to him to produce more real to life images.
 
I hope you are right but idk I don’t see them launching a camera this year that will hang with the a1. Sony admitted it took several years of development to get the a1 we have today. Fingers crossed but I think a lot of folks are going to be disappointed.
I think what ChrisM was referring to was that each camera manufacturers sensor and software produces different raw files with different qualities, and due to this he prefers one make over another as they appear to him to produce more real to life images.

Yes, and I would also add the lenses. I have used Olympus, Canon, Pentax, Sony and Nikon cameras, and the Nikon raw files are my favorite.
I have also of course felt the pull from the Sony A9+200-600 and more recently the A1.
I could afford a one time switch, but not back and forth, so I have given it quite a bit of thought.
I don't want to simply run off to the best AF without other considerations.
I have reached the conclusion, that for me a 500f4E is a better investment.
 
I've messed around a bit with making my own camera profiles using the free Canon software. It's instructive to see what goes into a profile and you see how you can get different looks from the same raw capture. It is not only color rendering but things like sharpening and other settings go into the profile. Lightrrom has their canned profiles and for some cameras they try to emulate the camera makers profiles. Raw converting using the camera makers software you get the proprietary camera profiles, which you can adjust to some degree, but each maker has their own special sauce for their profiles.

If you use a color checker within Lightroom or Photoshop to calibrate camera color , it generates its own camera profile with a different look from the standard ones, then you can use different cameras but get the same color across the board.
 
It's pretty common for folks new to posting images on these boards. The forum software lets you drag and drop or hit CTL-P and open a dialog box to post a photo. But once posted you're then presented with a pair of buttons on the bottom of the page to insert a thumbnail or full sized image. If you hit one of those after bringing in the photo you'll end up posting two copies of the same image.

This is exact what happened, somehow the same picture appeared twice :giggle:
 
Well, yes and no. :) Obviously I'm not happy to walk away from the IQ and portability of the 500PF. There really isn't anything else like it from any manufacturer, as it uniquely sits between good "consumer" glass but well below uber-expensive pro glass at the cost of one stop of light, and does so with a unique form factor that is unmatched. By anyone.

But for me other things outweighed the unique benefits of the 500PF. The most recent chapter in my personal story starts with the Z7 which introduced me to video. After shooting stills for 15 years video really grabbed my interest. An interesting factoid about video is that IQ isn't the be-all-and-end-all goal like it is for stills; video is more about telling a story with motion which curiously doesn't actually require the very best IQ. But since I still do enjoy good stills AND video, I needed a competent hybrid camera that can actually autofocus wildlife well too, and regretfully Nikon does not offer such a camera, at least not yet. For me, Sony offered the best options in the a1 and 200-600G. Canon, notably, has nothing quite like that combo either.

So the answer is that the a1 and 200-600G meet my personal needs the best. But I would never suggest that in terms of IQ, the a1+200-600 can compete with that of my old D850 and 600E or 500PF. To do that, I'd need Sony's 600GM, and that's not a priority for me right now.

Thanks for your response, it doesn't make it easier but at least more clear :)
 
Can you please reply and add the other photo? Thanks

Dear lhab, there are no two pictures, this is the picture of the Sony 200-600 with the A1, I left my Nikon at home but my point was that the overall "feeling" on the image was so much different than with the images created by the Nikon with the 500mmF4, sorry for the misunderstanding :giggle:
 
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