Z9 metering/focus mode question

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Marion Anstis

Marion Anstis

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Z9 + 500PF handheld. I have only had the Z9 for 10 days, so lots to learn.
Settings: AF C, back button focus, small frame focus mode and my AF-On button was set to 3D tracking with animal eye detection; Manual mode + auto ISO (EV compensation as required) and centre-weighted metering. 1/1250, f5.6.
I seem to have noticed a greater variance at times than I expected in exposure when photographing a stationery bird among leaves with sun behind bird, the animal detection focus could not find the eye very often at all (presumably because the bird was in shadow), but in most shots because the bird wasn't very big, focus was generally OK overall. However, at times the ISO suddenly jumped much higher when nothing had changed in the light on the scene (or any compensation change). I don't remember having this trouble with the D850. I am not blaming the camera, it is probably a difference with mirrorless that I need to get used to, plus my settings, but it occurred to me that because the focus point was jumping around a lot trying to find an eye unsuccessfully, then the auto ISO readings may well have been varied accordingly, especially if the focus spot went outside the frame at times? Also, the manual says the camera may not focus as well in low light.

Perhaps in a similar situation next time, I should have my AF On button set to just focus (and not linked with 3D tracking), and maybe not use animal eye detection for a mainly stationery bird?

Any tips greatly appreciated!
 
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You have asked very valid questions. First off, what focus settings worked in your D850? I would work from similar settings and gradually bring in more of the options. I wouldn't use 3d when there is more than one object like bird in branches. Beyond that, I would recommend Steve Perry's ebook on the Nikon Focusing System. You might benefit from Thom Hogan's website bythom.com. I think too that you can go to Moose Petersen's website. He provides a list of the settings he uses on the Z9 for wildlife photography.

Auto ISO depends on your exposure metering selection. Matrix metering doesn't work well with a backlight situation. Center weighted might be a better choice. I found the D850 and Z9 to be similar in that regard.
 
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Shutterbug fan 1 said:
You have asked very valid questions. First off, what focus settings worked in your D850? I would work from similar settings and gradually bring in more of the options. I wouldn't use 3d when there is more than one object like bird in branches. Beyond that, I would recommend Steve Perry's ebook on the Nikon Focusing System. You might benefit from Thom Hogan's website bythom.com. I think too that you can go to Moose Petersen's website. He provides a list of the settings he uses on the Z9 for wildlife photography.

Auto ISO depends on your exposure metering selection. Matrix metering doesn't work well with a backlight situation. Center weighted might be a better choice. I found the D850 and Z9 to be similar in that regard.
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Thanks for your reply. Yes, I was using centre-weighted, and with the D850. I am glad you have found the cameras two similar, so I will keep practising! I do have Steve's and Thom's books, but only just got them, so haven't as yet read all of them. I will try the same subject/situation without 3D. Will also have a look at Moose Petersen's website. Thanks again.
 
There was a previous thread here that was discussing how the z9 focus depends on there being a good exposure level in the viewfinder, saying that both used the same data stream. So in that context what you are saying makes sense, since the eye is underexposed in a backlight situation.

In cameras in general center weighted can be a challenge to use and should be saved for certain situations. Matrix is better as an all around choice because the camera has an algorithm based on a database of shooting situations to try to recognize backlighting and other situations. In the case if the bird with the sun behind, the center weighted meter is going to see all that brightness and darken the image. So you need positive exposure compensation. The old saying is background brighter - brighten, background darker - darken. Your exposure simulation in the viewfinder should help guide how much to compensate. Matrix will probably also overexpose some so you still have to compensate.
 
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Marion Anstis said:
Thanks for your reply. Yes, I was using centre-weighted, and with the D850. I am glad you have found the cameras two similar, so I will keep practising! I do have Steve's and Thom's books, but only just got them, so haven't as yet read all of them. I will try the same subject/situation without 3D. Will also have a look at Moose Petersen's website. Thanks again.
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Good. It sounds like you been there done that so as you gain experience with the Z9 you will find it very nice to work with. I struggled at first as well.
 
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Marion Anstis said:
ZP + 500PF handheld. I have only had the Z9 for 10 days, so lots to learn.
Settings: AF C, back button focus, small frame focus mode and my AF-On button was set to 3D tracking with animal eye detection; Manual mode + auto ISO (EV compensation as required) and centre-weighted metering. 1/1250, f5.6.
I seem to have noticed a greater variance at times than I expected in exposure when photographing a stationery bird among leaves with sun behind bird, the animal detection focus could not find the eye very often at all (presumably because the bird was in shadow), but in most shots because the bird wasn't very big, focus was generally OK overall. However, at times the ISO suddenly jumped much higher when nothing had changed in the light on the scene (or any compensation change). I don't remember having this trouble with the D850. I am not blaming the camera, it is probably a difference with mirrorless that I need to get used to, plus my settings, but it occurred to me that because the focus point was jumping around a lot trying to find an eye unsuccessfully, then the auto ISO readings may well have been varied accordingly, especially if the focus spot went outside the frame at times? Also, the manual says the camera may not focus as well in low light.

Perhaps in a similar situation next time, I should have my AF On button set to just focus (and not linked with 3D tracking), and maybe not use animal eye detection for a mainly stationery bird?

Any tips greatly appreciated!
Click to expand...

I've had the Z9 for maybe a month now, just used it for photographing wild animals in a national park, so more than birds but also birds on trees and in-flight. I've read the Nikon manual and other guides on it but not information guides from anyone else yet. I like to start with the base information first and work on from there. People are calling the Animal focus choice "eye focus," but that is not really the case. The Animal focus first locates the animal, then the head, and if the eye is visible then the eye but Nikon says that many things might get in the way of the focus system locating the eye, they have a long list. I think the Animal focus needs some more work on the part of Nikon. I found that the tracking options bounced around a lot on different animals and it was hard for me to correct the camera selection many times, although I was supposed to be able to do this. I tried all of the options throughout my three-week trip and I'm still working on how to use them. I was successful in most shots but lost some due to focus issues. The focus system is much more complicated than the dSLR cameras in my opinion (I still have a D500 and D850). When the focus locked on it was great and the eye in the image was very sharp, but locking on using subject detection was a problem for the camera in many cases. I kept the camera on Animal detect since that was all I was shooting and on tracking, following all of what Nikon recommended. But, when you read the recommendations in the guide it is crazy, since Nikon recommends different focus settings for different athletic events, which is what they focus on, and when out shooting wildlife it would be insane and impossible to change to all of the different settings they recommend. I'm going to continue to experiment and then limit my camera's selection only to the ones that work best given what and how I shoot. And, I'm hoping Nikon improves the Animal detection to actual "eye" detection in the near future, more like what a Sony camera will do. I don't think it's just you, the camera, while very nice, needs a software update to keep up with the other manufacturers.
 
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Viathelens said:
I've had the Z9 for maybe a month now, just used it for photographing wild animals in a national park, so more than birds but also birds on trees and in-flight. I've read the Nikon manual and other guides on it but not information guides from anyone else yet. I like to start with the base information first and work on from there. People are calling the Animal focus choice "eye focus," but that is not really the case. The Animal focus first locates the animal, then the head, and if the eye is visible then the eye but Nikon says that many things might get in the way of the focus system locating the eye, they have a long list. I think the Animal focus needs some more work on the part of Nikon. I found that the tracking options bounced around a lot on different animals and it was hard for me to correct the camera selection many times, although I was supposed to be able to do this. I tried all of the options throughout my three-week trip and I'm still working on how to use them. I was successful in most shots but lost some due to focus issues. The focus system is much more complicated than the dSLR cameras in my opinion (I still have a D500 and D850). When the focus locked on it was great and the eye in the image was very sharp, but locking on using subject detection was a problem for the camera in many cases. I kept the camera on Animal detect since that was all I was shooting and on tracking, following all of what Nikon recommended. But, when you read the recommendations in the guide it is crazy, since Nikon recommends different focus settings for different athletic events, which is what they focus on, and when out shooting wildlife it would be insane and impossible to change to all of the different settings they recommend. I'm going to continue to experiment and then limit my camera's selection only to the ones that work best given what and how I shoot. And, I'm hoping Nikon improves the Animal detection to actual "eye" detection in the near future, more like what a Sony camera will do. I don't think it's just you, the camera, while very nice, needs a software update to keep up with the other manufacturers.
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Agree - I reached similar conclusions after 2 weeks in Africa.................. Coming from a D5/D850 I had a LOT more trouble achieving focus in even simple situations. Previously, I never worried about achieving focus. Now that is a constant challenge.
 
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Butlerkid said:
Agree - I reached similar conclusions after 2 weeks in Africa.................. Coming from a D5/D850 I had a LOT more trouble achieving focus in even simple situations. Previously, I never worried about achieving focus. Now that is a constant challenge.
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I do need to get it right as I am going to Africa in August so I'm hoping I've got it dialed in by then and, maybe, Nikon will get it right before that! I can only hope. I am now studying the various options within all the choices, and there are many choices in many modes! None of the literature addresses the two added options where I can set the size, have you seen anything on that? I'm assuming it falls under Wide Area with subject detection? I do wish LrC would list the autofocus mode and focus points so I could actually see what worked best...maybe in a future version. I need to experiment in a controlled environment, not when a bear cub is moving along and I'm trying to get the shot!
 
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Viathelens said:
I do need to get it right as I am going to Africa in August so I'm hoping I've got it dialed in by then and, maybe, Nikon will get it right before that! I can only hope. I am now studying the various options within all the choices, and there are many choices in many modes! None of the literature addresses the two added options where I can set the size, have you seen anything on that? I'm assuming it falls under Wide Area with subject detection? I do wish LrC would list the autofocus mode and focus points so I could actually see what worked best...maybe in a future version. I need to experiment in a controlled environment, not when a bear cub is moving along and I'm trying to get the shot!
Click to expand...
If you have the mirrorless AF book, I talk about the C1 and C2 custom areas, as well as give tons of tips for focusing. It's a long read, but I think worth the time if you're heading to Africa.
 
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Steve said:
If you have the mirrorless AF book, I talk about the C1 and C2 custom areas, as well as give tons of tips for focusing. It's a long read, but I think worth the time if you're heading to Africa.
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Hi Steve, you may not recall but I've gone with you and Rose twice to Costa Rica, both times were wonderful. I do think this camera is different in the way it handles focusing. I also have the Z7 but only used it for landscapes and nature so did not mess around with the focus too much. I'll get the book but still trying to understand what Nikon says, although they don't really get specific enough for me. I tried all of the focus setups and I think I ended up mostly using the Wide Area-Small with subject detection turned on and the type set to Animal. I'll read what you've written and see if that clarifies...I think they have given too many choices and not enough specific information.
 
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Viathelens said:
Hi Steve, you may not recall but I've gone with you and Rose twice to Costa Rica, both times were wonderful. I do think this camera is different in the way it handles focusing. I also have the Z7 but only used it for landscapes and nature so did not mess around with the focus too much. I'll get the book but still trying to understand what Nikon says, although they don't really get specific enough for me. I tried all of the focus setups and I think I ended up mostly using the Wide Area-Small with subject detection turned on and the type set to Animal. I'll read what you've written and see if that clarifies...I think they have given too many choices and not enough specific information.
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Thanks for the kind words - glad you liked the trip and yes, we do remember you :)

Yeah, the Nikon info is not very specific, the mirrorless AF book goes into much greater detail. I think the section on subject detection alone is around 40+ pages (with pics, but still, a lot of info). The only way to get the best performance from the Z9 is to understand how it behaves in each AF area and with subject detection in the supported AF areas. About the only place I like the a1 better is for BIF work, and even that's pretty close between the cameras. For normal wildlife, I can use either camera and get great results every time.
 
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Viathelens said:
Hi Steve, you may not recall but I've gone with you and Rose twice to Costa Rica, both times were wonderful. I do think this camera is different in the way it handles focusing. I also have the Z7 but only used it for landscapes and nature so did not mess around with the focus too much. I'll get the book but still trying to understand what Nikon says, although they don't really get specific enough for me. I tried all of the focus setups and I think I ended up mostly using the Wide Area-Small with subject detection turned on and the type set to Animal. I'll read what you've written and see if that clarifies...I think they have given too many choices and not enough specific information.
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BTW, here's one of my favs from a few weeks ago in Botswana - taken with the Z9.

chobe-0514-01444-Edit-Edit.jpg
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Is the 800 heavy? You've got nice reach with that lens. Nice action. I was able to get many good shots and when the auto focus tracking caught it was very good. What auto-focus mode as in Area-Mode, can you recall?
 
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Viathelens said:
Is the 800 heavy? You've got nice reach with that lens. Nice action. I was able to get many good shots and when the auto focus tracking caught it was very good. What auto-focus mode as in Area-Mode, can you recall?
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It's not as heavy as something like a 600, but it's not light like a 500PF. Still, not bad to handle. I was focused on the two "talking" and think I was using 3D to keep with the middle one. The one coming in was lucky since they all ended up on the exact same focal plane (I have a few on the flier that are completely out - it's only this single shot with it in the proper plane of focus). BTW - this is a good reason to always shoot 20FPS - you never know when stuff like this is going to happen. I'm confident that if I had shot at 8-10FPS the chances of getting that exact moment would have been reduced considerably.
 
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I have had my Z9 for about 4 months and like many have tried and refined many ways of using this awesome camera. One needs to accept that in clear skies an AF WIDE mode with wildlife tracking is the place to start - be this by half depressing the shutter button or using the af-on button this is a choice. The once you have acquired and are tracking your target many of us use another button to enable 3-d tracking, which gives better results if there are no distractions. In my case I use the shutter button to commence af with my general setting, but have assigned 3-d tracking and af-on to the af-on button. So I can either stay with, say, af wide area or switch to 3-d tracking by pressing the af-on button. Equally importantly I can switch back from 3-d tracking to my general wide area tracking mode by lifting my thumb off of the af-on button.

Now - you will probably have already discovered that where there are high contrast distractions — like trees/branches and complex backgrounds — 3-d tracking can jump away and get lost in the background.So what can you do. My Fn2 button is used to move focus to a point at about 5m away. I then half depress the shutter again to restart af-wide area tracking hoping this picks up the bird. My Fn3 button actuates small dynamic area af and Fn1 button single point. Fn3 is used to track in highly complex environments when the af will pick the closest object. Single point is used for stationary subjects when tracking cannot lock on to the eye or head.

No system is perfect — the Z9 is the best at finding eyes at long distance in simple backgrounds; but some say it is less automatically great as other systems when the environment is complex. Well I shoot Nikon not these other systems and so I have had to learn to make it work. My way works for me and my keeper rate is 10+ times what it used to be with a D6.
Biggest lesson - don’t just hold on to af-on or half press the shutter, move the focus out of the background to a point closer to you and start af again. Obviously you have to keep the subject in the view finder and so you must learn d practice again and again and again. The Z9 is far more capable than any DSLR but it needs help when it gets stuck. Try try try again.
 
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Butlerkid said:
How did you handle the noise? I found that the noise on the Z9 was bad starting about 900 ISO! YIKES! So 1,000 - 3,000 ISO was really questionable......
Click to expand...

I haven't had a problem with noise. I shot on auto-ISO and the exposure was perfect in most instances and at high ISO the noise was not bad at all. Noise problems generally come from underexposing.
 
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ajm057 said:
I have had my Z9 for about 4 months and like many have tried and refined many ways of using this awesome camera. One needs to accept that in clear skies an AF WIDE mode with wildlife tracking is the place to start - be this by half depressing the shutter button or using the af-on button this is a choice. The once you have acquired and are tracking your target many of us use another button to enable 3-d tracking, which gives better results if there are no distractions. In my case I use the shutter button to commence af with my general setting, but have assigned 3-d tracking and af-on to the af-on button. So I can either stay with, say, af wide area or switch to 3-d tracking by pressing the af-on button. Equally importantly I can switch back from 3-d tracking to my general wide area tracking mode by lifting my thumb off of the af-on button.

Now - you will probably have already discovered that where there are high contrast distractions — like trees/branches and complex backgrounds — 3-d tracking can jump away and get lost in the background.So what can you do. My Fn2 button is used to move focus to a point at about 5m away. I then half depress the shutter again to restart af-wide area tracking hoping this picks up the bird. My Fn3 button actuates small dynamic area af and Fn1 button single point. Fn3 is used to track in highly complex environments when the af will pick the closest object. Single point is used for stationary subjects when tracking cannot lock on to the eye or head.

No system is perfect — the Z9 is the best at finding eyes at long distance in simple backgrounds; but some say it is less automatically great as other systems when the environment is complex. Well I shoot Nikon not these other systems and so I have had to learn to make it work. My way works for me and my keeper rate is 10+ times what it used to be with a D6.
Biggest lesson - don’t just hold on to af-on or half press the shutter, move the focus out of the background to a point closer to you and start af again. Obviously you have to keep the subject in the view finder and so you must learn d practice again and again and again. The Z9 is far more capable than any DSLR but it needs help when it gets stuck. Try try try again.
Click to expand...

I read this and thanks for your input to the discussion and I'll experiment with this. Your comments, however, demonstrate that Nikon has developed a camera that cannot effectively focus quickly on a moving subject much of the time. To expect a photographer to go through what you are describing each time we are shooting a moving animal is crazy, especially for the cost of the instrument. Having to move focus, handing off to different types of AF-Area Modes while shooting an image, should not be required in order to get a sharp shot where the camera tracks as it should. Your comments lead me to the conclusion that Nikon does indeed need to work on this and send us an upgrade where we don't have to remember three or four different buttons and hope for the best. There has got to be a better way to achieve tracking focus! :rolleyes: ...
 
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Steve said:
It's not as heavy as something like a 600, but it's not light like a 500PF. Still, not bad to handle. I was focused on the two "talking" and think I was using 3D to keep with the middle one. The one coming in was lucky since they all ended up on the exact same focal plane (I have a few on the flier that are completely out - it's only this single shot with it in the proper plane of focus). BTW - this is a good reason to always shoot 20FPS - you never know when stuff like this is going to happen. I'm confident that if I had shot at 8-10FPS the chances of getting that exact moment would have been reduced considerably.
Click to expand...

Except that shooting at 20FPS had me ending up with 13,000 images from my three-week YellowstoneNP/Teton NP/Utah wildlife refuge journey...that, for me, is a lot of images to go through. Since most were not BIF there is a whole lot of images that are just about the same or are exactly the same as bears don't move as fast as birds, unless they are after you or something else of course! I did turn the dial down but set it up as when I thought I might need it. I am now going through and deleting as much as I can, now down to 10,500 or so. Just got things organized today after importing as a catalog from my travel drives and travel LrC catalog, that took a bit of time. My computer is not the fastest but when I get my screen next week, the final piece to be delivered, I'll have a much faster Mac, the 27" inch screen and the Mac Studio HD. I now need to rethink my hard drives and I'm researching that.
 
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Viathelens said:
Except that shooting at 20FPS had me ending up with 13,000 images from my three-week YellowstoneNP/Teton NP/Utah wildlife refuge journey...that, for me, is a lot of images to go through. Since most were not BIF there is a whole lot of images that are just about the same or are exactly the same as bears don't move as fast as birds, unless they are after you or something else of course! I did turn the dial down but set it up as when I thought I might need it. I am now going through and deleting as much as I can, now down to 10,500 or so. Just got things organized today after importing as a catalog from my travel drives and travel LrC catalog, that took a bit of time. My computer is not the fastest but when I get my screen next week, the final piece to be delivered, I'll have a much faster Mac, the 27" inch screen and the Mac Studio HD. I now need to rethink my hard drives and I'm researching that.
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LOL, it can produce a ton of images, no question. I've become better at shorter bursts between the Z9 and a1. However, I still keep it at full throttle simply because there are times something happens (an animal shakes it head, makes a funny face, etc) that 20FPS grabs perfectly.
 
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Butlerkid said:
How did you handle the noise? I found that the noise on the Z9 was bad starting about 900 ISO! YIKES! So 1,000 - 3,000 ISO was really questionable......
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I used a couple of Topaz layers in Photoshop - wasn't too tricky and was pretty easy to knock out the noise and keep the detail. I have been told and have personally verified that Capture One can handle the noise better than Photoshop from Z9 files. Careful use of the luminance and detail slider really does a good job. I didn't use it with the bee eaters, but I may for some other shots. Most of the time I can pull it off with Topaz though.
 
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