Z9 metering/focus mode question

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ajm057 said:
I have had my Z9 for about 4 months and like many have tried and refined many ways of using this awesome camera. One needs to accept that in clear skies an AF WIDE mode with wildlife tracking is the place to start - be this by half depressing the shutter button or using the af-on button this is a choice. The once you have acquired and are tracking your target many of us use another button to enable 3-d tracking, which gives better results if there are no distractions. In my case I use the shutter button to commence af with my general setting, but have assigned 3-d tracking and af-on to the af-on button. So I can either stay with, say, af wide area or switch to 3-d tracking by pressing the af-on button. Equally importantly I can switch back from 3-d tracking to my general wide area tracking mode by lifting my thumb off of the af-on button.

Now - you will probably have already discovered that where there are high contrast distractions — like trees/branches and complex backgrounds — 3-d tracking can jump away and get lost in the background.So what can you do. My Fn2 button is used to move focus to a point at about 5m away. I then half depress the shutter again to restart af-wide area tracking hoping this picks up the bird. My Fn3 button actuates small dynamic area af and Fn1 button single point. Fn3 is used to track in highly complex environments when the af will pick the closest object. Single point is used for stationary subjects when tracking cannot lock on to the eye or head.

No system is perfect — the Z9 is the best at finding eyes at long distance in simple backgrounds; but some say it is less automatically great as other systems when the environment is complex. Well I shoot Nikon not these other systems and so I have had to learn to make it work. My way works for me and my keeper rate is 10+ times what it used to be with a D6.
Biggest lesson - don’t just hold on to af-on or half press the shutter, move the focus out of the background to a point closer to you and start af again. Obviously you have to keep the subject in the view finder and so you must learn d practice again and again and again. The Z9 is far more capable than any DSLR but it needs help when it gets stuck. Try try try again.
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Thanks very much for your interesting tips re Function button settings. I will try to do one or two function buttons, but my problem will be remembering which I've set to what if I do too many, especially when I'm in a hurry! But I agree practice is very much the key to this camera.
 
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Thanks everyone for the very interesting discussion points raised. I had a second go at a similar scene today, and used Wide area small (as Steve had suggested in his book) and C1 even smaller, plus animal detection in both, and it mostly worked well, although I would need to turn off animal detection when the bird has thin branches in front of it - a situation handled more easily with the D850 on single focus point. And yes, I did use EV compensation when areas of the sky were behind. I will try the Auto area Mode for BIF, and 3D for perched birds, as long as they are sitting in a fairly clear position, without fine branches cluttering the scene, a situation that is unlikely to produce a worthwile photo anyway!

And also, I changed the AF On button to just focus, and used Natural light white balance. If I am in an area where I can practice BIF, I will try setting AF On back to focus + 3D, and program a function button for AF Wide, or Auto area. I tried to post the bird image in question here, but it didn't work. The image showed (dull grey) with a frame around it then disappeared. Not sure what I did wrong...

Hurray, found the size was not 800 tall! Have now downloaded the preset for sizing in LR, thanks Steve.
 
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Marion Anstis said:
Thanks very much for your interesting tips re Function button settings. I will try to do one or two function buttons, but my problem will be remembering which I've set to what if I do too many, especially when I'm in a hurry! But I agree practice is very much the key to this camera.
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Hi -- I write mine down and since they are different in each Menu/Shooting Bank and I revise them regularly. But for now for BIF these are my basic settings. I also assign Recall Shooting Hold Settings to the Movie Record Button. While my long lenses all have save focus point buttons on them some of the shorter ones (zooms and short primes do not) in which case I have to assign one Fn button so Save Pre-Focus point.

I am really disturbed by those who seem to think that a US$5.5k probody will do everything for them and be perfect in every situation -- I am glad you (Marion) are not one of them.
But to those who "expect this that or the other" -- do please remember that the price of a thing does not eliminate the need to learn and develop and refine the skills necessary to use the tool well and to capture great images.
I have used every type of camera from the very very staggeringly expensive Hasselblad H6D-100C/MC and X1DII cameras to the cheapest point and shoot none of these tools gave me instantly great images. Both Hasselblad's have what DSLR or Mirrorless Camera users would classify as unacceptably poor AutoFocus -- one focus point in the centre so one has to focus and recompose, staggeringly slow leaf shutters and write times -- but the results from a 100mp or 50mp 16-bit sensor of a properly composed/arranged, lit and executed shot are staggeringly good even with all the limitations inherent in the system. You have to learn to use them "properly"

As someone who has shot, albeit briefly, all flagship/top cameras across Sony, Canon and Nikon - but who currently owns and uses both multiple Nikon Z9 (and others) and also D850 DSLRs - NO SYSTEM is better than the rest -- they are all NOT PERFECT. So stop bashing the brands for your own issues
For those of you who want the flagship camera to do all the work for you -- they won't -- these bodies are designed to be used by Professionals (who have taken millions of exposures and sold their output) and very enthusiastic and skilled amateurs -- both of whom have taken the time (like Marion) to learn, develop skills and master both their subjects, their equipment and their workflow.

I hear/read far far to often wildly unrealistic demands from frankly those who should know better, but prefer behaving like little children.
Oh this camera cost so much it must do this that or the other -- well no it does not.

The cameras we have do what they do, not what you want them to do if this is different.
There is an expectation that the user learns to do their part of the job to. You don't just jump into an F1 or NASCAR and win a race -- it takes a long time to get good and some of us simply do not have what it takes to get there.

A very long time ago I worked for a while with a Horse Racing shooter who had been shooting Manual Focus since the 1950s and still was using Manual Focus on his D5 in 2015 aged 90+. He learned how to do it and perfected his skills over millions and millions of exposures. He learnt what the right time was to take a shot of a horse jumping a fence to provide him with an image that would sell to the photo editor of national and racing press He also knew how to be ready for the shot of the jockey falling off etc....
No matter how good our cameras and lenses are nothing has changed for us - particularly when shooting wildlife, but also in every other form of photography. He still was selling images aged 90+

Know your subject -- its behaviours, how and when to approach it, know your gear and how to get the best results and go out and shoot many many many times because even if you put yourself in the right spot with the right gear with the best settings the wind might come from the wrong direction and all you get are shots of the rear of the bird, or the weather changes and you get wet and cold or the wildlife just does not turn up that day ......

I am truly surprised and saddened by those of you who bought a Z6II or Z7II and expect Nikon to deliver Z9 levels of performance in these bodies -- it is just not going to happen - the technology in your (and my) Z6II and Z7II is just not able to deliver the same level of performance possible in a Z9.
Yes there might and probably will be some small improvements via firmware updates. But the v2.0 for the Z9 was clearly planned before the camera's launch and the technology in the body capable of delivering it, and I hope more.

Nothing will really change in the Z6/Z7 bodies until Nikon flow down the Expeed 7 chip and other technology into a Z6III and a Z7III, probably later this year, when you will be able to access "some" of the Z9's capabilities in a cheaper and smaller body than a Z9 -- BUT never all of them. NEVER all those functions that need a bigger body and bigger battery. AND yes to access these capabilities you will have to buy a new body -- so it is so it has always been.

We will hopefully soon see the specs for the Z30 Vloggers Camera soon and this will provide an indication of what Nikon's plan for its Transition product designed to capture young vloggers. We will see the "minimum" specs in a Z30 that Nikon will deploy in new bodies for the next 2 years -- will the Z30 include an Expeed 7 (LIGHT) chip, include CF-Express Type B card, have a fully flippable rear screen so that precious vloggers do not need to buy Ninja Vs etc etc.....

I also hope to see a higher MP Z8 launched later this year -- but do not expect the quality of a 16-bit medium format camera from a 35mm sensor size -- this simply will not happen. What will "deliver" as a D850 replacement is a 60.2MP sensor, with a HighRes Multi-shot option to deliver 240mp files combined from 4-exposures like the Sony VI does -- and a range of even better glass f/1.2 or brighter to support higher resolution shooting. This will probably need to be in a bigger pro body than the Z6/Z7 and support an optional battery/vertical grip (with EN-EL18), for those who need it, and potentially deliver even better video than is possible on a Z9. (subject to the lawsuit being satisfactorily resolved - I would hate this to delay the launch of a Z8)

AND I hope to see a Z70/90 super fast low light DX sensor in a ProBody to replace the D500 announced this year as well.

BUT to repeat NO Nikon, Sony, Canon or other Pro Camera camera will take the photo for you - you still have to optimise your skills and capabilities.
So please come back to this reality and stop dreaming that spending 3-4-5-6-7 thousands of US Dollars or Euros and much more will buy you instant access to the same skill and images as those taken by Steve or other professionals who have spent decades and decades at this a a job that makes them a living.
 
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Hi Steve, when I tried to import the extracted template file you put up for resizing images in LR for the Gallery, I get an error essage saying this is 'not the right kind of preset' - any tips on installation, I am using Windows??
 
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Marion Anstis said:
Z9 + 500PF handheld. I have only had the Z9 for 10 days, so lots to learn.
Settings: AF C, back button focus, small frame focus mode and my AF-On button was set to 3D tracking with animal eye detection; Manual mode + auto ISO (EV compensation as required) and centre-weighted metering. 1/1250, f5.6.
I seem to have noticed a greater variance at times than I expected in exposure when photographing a stationery bird among leaves with sun behind bird, the animal detection focus could not find the eye very often at all (presumably because the bird was in shadow), but in most shots because the bird wasn't very big, focus was generally OK overall. However, at times the ISO suddenly jumped much higher when nothing had changed in the light on the scene (or any compensation change). I don't remember having this trouble with the D850. I am not blaming the camera, it is probably a difference with mirrorless that I need to get used to, plus my settings, but it occurred to me that because the focus point was jumping around a lot trying to find an eye unsuccessfully, then the auto ISO readings may well have been varied accordingly, especially if the focus spot went outside the frame at times? Also, the manual says the camera may not focus as well in low light.

Perhaps in a similar situation next time, I should have my AF On button set to just focus (and not linked with 3D tracking), and maybe not use animal eye detection for a mainly stationery bird?

Any tips greatly appreciated!
Click to expand...
I don't shoot birds but sports. Although athletes are much bigger than the birds, settings could be 'transferable'. With the Z9, I don't used BBF any more. I have a focus mode (anything except auto AF and 3D) set to the AF-On button. I shoot as I did with DSLR - use the AF-On button to acquire target / focus, BUT when the subject gets closer / larger AND I have lock-on, I let go of the AF-On button and use the shutter button with 3D assigned to release & focus. 3D sticks like glue once you have lock on, but struggles at time to get lock on by itself.
 
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Viathelens said:
Your comments, however, demonstrate that Nikon has developed a camera that cannot effectively focus quickly on a moving subject much of the time. To expect a photographer to go through what you are describing each time we are shooting a moving animal is crazy, especially for the cost of the instrument. Having to move focus, handing off to different types of AF-Area Modes while shooting an image, should not be required in order to get a sharp shot where the camera tracks as it should. Your comments lead me to the conclusion that Nikon does indeed need to work on this and send us an upgrade where we don't have to remember three or four different buttons and hope for the best. There has got to be a better way to achieve tracking focus!.
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Wow - I will repeat my finding "No system is perfect — the Z9 is the best at finding eyes at long distance in simple backgrounds; but some say it is less automatically great as other systems when the environment is complex. Well I shoot Nikon not these other systems and so I have had to learn to make it work. My way works for me and my keeper rate is 10+ times what it used to be with a D6."
You have a different experience - OK- well perhaps if you got better at using the tool you have you would also achieve better results like others do. It is a personal choice about taking responsibility and control of the things you can control.
 
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Marion Anstis said:
Hi Steve, when I tried to import the extracted template file you put up for resizing images in LR for the Gallery, I get an error essage saying this is 'not the right kind of preset' - any tips on installation, I am using Windows??
Click to expand...

I'm not Steve but he had some actions for Photoshop as well. Could you be on those by mistake?
 
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ajm057 said:
Wow - I will repeat my finding "No system is perfect — the Z9 is the best at finding eyes at long distance in simple backgrounds; but some say it is less automatically great as other systems when the environment is complex. Well I shoot Nikon not these other systems and so I have had to learn to make it work. My way works for me and my keeper rate is 10+ times what it used to be with a D6."
You have a different experience - OK- well perhaps if you got better at using the tool you have you would also achieve better results like others do. It is a personal choice about taking responsibility and control of the things you can control.
Click to expand...

Wow...maybe you mean shots like these....
pics.jpg
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Marion Anstis said:
Hi Steve, when I tried to import the extracted template file you put up for resizing images in LR for the Gallery, I get an error essage saying this is 'not the right kind of preset' - any tips on installation, I am using Windows??
Click to expand...
Make sure you're using the one here:

Lightroom Preset: Resizing Images For The Forum

A free Lightroom preset to help you resize your images for the forum
bcgforums.com bcgforums.com
 
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Marion Anstis said:
I seem to have noticed a greater variance at times than I expected in exposure when photographing a stationery bird among leaves with sun behind bird, the animal detection focus could not find the eye very often at all (presumably because the bird was in shadow), but in most shots because the bird wasn't very big, focus was generally OK overall. However, at times the ISO suddenly jumped much higher when nothing had changed in the light on the scene (or any compensation change). I don't remember having this trouble with the D850.
Click to expand...
I found the very same behaviors with my Z9. The subject and eye detection does not work on birds that are in shadows and often not at all when they are in trees. Then the solution is to go back to AF-S pinpoint or the very smallest square just like the D850 or D5. The bird is perched anyway hence you do not need to track the eye.

I found the reason the auto-ISO jumped around a great deal was because I had the focus set to center and subject only. Our eyes do not detect the immense changes in light just of that part of the scene but the camera does. I switched to a larger area although not the entire field. That helped. Now I am following the suggestion of two other wildlife photographers and switching the auto-ISO off and using manual ISO. Then you and I can make our own decisions about which ISO to use. We can also take into account backlighting. Also for birds with very white areas on the bird such as bald eagles and waterfowl, we can be sure to slightly under-expose the image so that none of the white gets too close to the exposure limit and blows out. Being in manual ISO means we do not need to separately adjust the exposure compensation so we are faster to take good images without playing with settings.
 
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jpawlan said:
I found the very same behaviors with my Z9. The subject and eye detection does not work on birds that are in shadows and often not at all when they are in trees. Then the solution is to go back to AF-S pinpoint or the very smallest square just like the D850 or D5. The bird is perched anyway hence you do not need to track the eye.

I found the reason the auto-ISO jumped around a great deal was because I had the focus set to center and subject only. Our eyes do not detect the immense changes in light just of that part of the scene but the camera does. I switched to a larger area although not the entire field. That helped. Now I am following the suggestion of two other wildlife photographers and switching the auto-ISO off and using manual ISO. Then you and I can make our own decisions about which ISO to use. We can also take into account backlighting. Also for birds with very white areas on the bird such as bald eagles and waterfowl, we can be sure to slightly under-expose the image so that none of the white gets too close to the exposure limit and blows out. Being in manual ISO means we do not need to separately adjust the exposure compensation so we are faster to take good images without playing with settings.
Click to expand...
Thanks, yes, I find in difficult backlit situations, or birds against sky etc., I either use Auto ISO mostly with +2 or 2.3 compensation, but it can still vary during a fast action sequence, so what I am tending to do now is work out a suitable ISO with Auto ISO on and compensation initially, then turn Auto off, and things are much more stable of course then. Depends a bit on whether I have time to do this in an action scene! I also had Auto White Balance on before which was a bit erratic (probably due to the roving focus spot) but after changing to the Natural Light Auto option, it seems better overall. And yes, I now have a single point focus ready on one f the function buttons for the reasons you mention.
 
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Marion Anstis said:
Z9 + 500PF handheld. I have only had the Z9 for 10 days, so lots to learn.
Settings: AF C, back button focus, small frame focus mode and my AF-On button was set to 3D tracking with animal eye detection; Manual mode + auto ISO (EV compensation as required) and centre-weighted metering. 1/1250, f5.6.
I seem to have noticed a greater variance at times than I expected in exposure when photographing a stationery bird among leaves with sun behind bird, the animal detection focus could not find the eye very often at all (presumably because the bird was in shadow), but in most shots because the bird wasn't very big, focus was generally OK overall. However, at times the ISO suddenly jumped much higher when nothing had changed in the light on the scene (or any compensation change). I don't remember having this trouble with the D850. I am not blaming the camera, it is probably a difference with mirrorless that I need to get used to, plus my settings, but it occurred to me that because the focus point was jumping around a lot trying to find an eye unsuccessfully, then the auto ISO readings may well have been varied accordingly, especially if the focus spot went outside the frame at times? Also, the manual says the camera may not focus as well in low light.

Perhaps in a similar situation next time, I should have my AF On button set to just focus (and not linked with 3D tracking), and maybe not use animal eye detection for a mainly stationery bird?

Any tips greatly appreciated!
Click to expand...
I use the auto area modes when there are conflicting objects in the view finder. Still learning also. But this seems to work well for me.
 
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Steve said:
If you have the mirrorless AF book, I talk about the C1 and C2 custom areas, as well as give tons of tips for focusing. It's a long read, but I think worth the time if you're heading to Africa.
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A very readable book. I have read it a reread it while awaiting my Z9. Deliveries outside USA are painfully slow.
 
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JLT said:
I watched this video and found it very interesting. Subscribed to his channel and starting looking at some other videos and then realized that he switched to Sony and has a video explaining why. At the end he said “I wish I have done it sooner”, just food for thought.
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Yes, but please be careful JLT. This does NOT help nor address the Op's concerns with the Z-9.

Reason why Steve made the "No bashing ..." thread.
 
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DsD said:
Yes, but please be careful JLT. This does NOT help nor address the Op's concerns with the Z-9.

Reason why Steve made the "No bashing ..." thread.
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I’m not bashing Nikon, I even just placed an order for the 400mm 2.8, I just found ironic that someone’s video was mentioned to learn about the Nikon AF system and next thing you know is that he switched to Sony.
 
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