Do RAW images create excessive noise at high ISOs?

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Larry S.

Larry S.

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I shot this wren today in JPEG/large/fine* to determine if noise (grain) is just systemic in high ISO RAW images. This was a backlit situation w/Z9 600PF f/6.3 at 1/2500 sec. The auto ISO was a whopping 11,400! I was amazed at how little, if not negligible noise was present straight out of the camera. Similar shooting situations in RAW seem to have produced significantly higher noise at this ISO range. Maybe one of the members can explain what I’m seeing…. or not seeing here..
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No, there's nothing inherent in RAW files that create excess noise. In fact every straight out of the camera jpeg is captured as RAW data but then converted in-camera. All digital photos are RAW photos until conversion whether that happens in the camera or in post processing. The jpeg conversion process may apply more noise averaging than your default RAW conversion process but that image still started out as a RAW image.
 
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Doug A. said:
Did you have any Noise Reduction turned on? That could explain why the JPEG looks less noisy than the RAW file.
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DRwyoming said:
No, there's nothing inherent in RAW files that create excess noise. In fact every straight out of the camera jpeg is captured as RAW data but then converted in-camera. All digital photos are RAW photos until conversion whether that happens in the camera or in post processing. The jpeg conversion process may apply more noise averaging than your default RAW conversion process but that image still started out as a RAW image.
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JAJohnson said:
That’s why your jpeg image looks less noisier than the converted RAW image in whatever viewer/editor you’re using.
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So the “noise reduction“ (NR) settings do not effect any change if you are shooting RAW? Trying to make sense of that…🤔
 
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Larry S. said:
So the “noise reduction“ (NR) settings do not effect any change if you are shooting RAW? Trying to make sense of that…🤔
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If you shoot in-camera jpegs, high ISO noise reduction is applied during RAW conversion that happens in the camera to deliver a noise reduced JPEG file.

High ISO Noise Reduction is not applied during RAW conversion in post processing. Some of the camera settings can be optionally acted on during RAW file import depending on your RAW converter and how it is setup. For instance in Lightroom you can opt to import camera settings or adobe defaults for RAW conversion but High ISO Noise Reduction is not something that's acted on.

Here's some discussion of what can be and what is not applied during RAW conversion in post processing: https://photographylife.com/which-camera-settings-affect-raw-photos#:~:text=9) High ISO Noise Reduction,will be exactly the same.
 
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Larry S. said:
So the “noise reduction“ (NR) settings do not effect any change if you are shooting RAW? Trying to make sense of that…🤔
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Forgive me if this is too pedantic or too simplified. The camera deals with RAW files by default, it then writes out whatever you request - in your case JPG. There are a number of settings (NR being one of them) that only get applied as the camera is writing out the JPG onto the card. So you can think of the camera speaking a native language (let's say English), so it thinks in English but then when it comes time to speak, it translate the English thoughts/ideas into another language (how about French) and what it says is essentially the same, but has a few nuances applied to it.
 
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JAJohnson said:
That’s why your jpeg image looks less noisier than the converted RAW image in whatever viewer/editor you’re using.
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dupcak said:
Forgive me if this is too pedantic or too simplified. The camera deals with RAW files by default, it then writes out whatever you request - in your case JPG. There are a number of settings (NR being one of them) that only get applied as the camera is writing out the JPG onto the card. So you can think of the camera speaking a native language (let's say English), so it thinks in English but then when it comes time to speak, it translate the English thoughts/ideas into another language (how about French) and what it says is essentially the same, but has a few nuances applied to it.
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DRwyoming said:
If you shoot in-camera jpegs, high ISO noise reduction is applied during RAW conversion that happens in the camera to deliver a noise reduced JPEG file.

High ISO Noise Reduction is not applied during RAW conversion in post processing. Some of the camera settings can be optionally acted on during RAW file import depending on your RAW converter and how it is setup. For instance in Lightroom you can opt to import camera settings or adobe defaults for RAW conversion but High ISO Noise Reduction is not something that's acted on.

Here's some discussion of what can be and what is not applied during RAW conversion in post processing: https://photographylife.com/which-camera-settings-affect-raw-photos#:~:text=9) High ISO Noise Reduction,will be exactly the same.
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The only stupid question is the one not asked….and of course settings menus are confusing. My “A” shooting bank is set up for “wildlife RAW” … so why did I get NR (noise reduction) choices in my menu. Seems it would be “grayed out” like other setting not available.
 
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Larry S. said:
The only stupid question is the one not asked….and of course settings menus are confusing. My “A” shooting bank is set up for “wildlife RAW” … so why did I get NR (noise reduction) choices in my menu. Seems it would be “grayed out” like other setting not available.
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No matter what format you use to save your images to the CFe card, the images displayed on the camera’s rear screen are JPEG. Any picture controls or NR settings are applied to them so that you can see the result.
 
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Larry S. said:
The only stupid question is the one not asked….and of course settings menus are confusing. My “A” shooting bank is set up for “wildlife RAW” … so why did I get NR (noise reduction) choices in my menu. Seems it would be “grayed out” like other setting not available.
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The setup menu doesn't know when you might choose to change to shooting JPEG or RAW plus JPEG and allows you to set basic functions that might or might not apply to other down the road settings you may change. IOW, the menus aren't smart enough to go through all your current settings and gray out those that don't apply based on everything else currently set. Yeah, there are some that take into account other settings like only having a jpeg option when shooting the fastest frame rates but many of the camera's settings don't review and take into account everything else currently enabled.

For instance in the ISO menu you can set a minimum shutter speed even if the camera is currently set to Manual shooting mode in which case that minimum shutter speed is completely ignored similar to the way High ISO Noise Reduction can be set but is completely ignored when shooting RAW.

Modern cameras are pretty amazing in terms of how you can customize the setup but that also adds a lot of potential confusion. For instance a lot of folks get tripped up when they switch to silent mode and discover their external flash units no longer fire. A careful reading of the manual can show why that's the case but there are so many interdependent settings that it's easy to get tripped up on which apply in which situations and which can inhibit or limit some other function. It's not simple to always get it right, but these aren't simple tools, they have a lot of built in complexity.
 
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DRwyoming said:
The setup menu doesn't know when you might choose to change to shooting JPEG or RAW plus JPEG and allows you to set basic functions that might or might not apply to other down the road settings you may change. IOW, the menus aren't smart enough to go through all your current settings and gray out those that don't apply based on everything else currently set. Yeah, there are some that take into account other settings like only having a jpeg option when shooting the fastest frame rates but many of the camera's settings don't review and take into account everything else currently enabled.

For instance in the ISO menu you can set a minimum shutter speed even if the camera is currently set to Manual shooting mode in which case that minimum shutter speed is completely ignored similar to the way High ISO Noise Reduction can be set but is completely ignored when shooting RAW.

Modern cameras are pretty amazing in terms of how you can customize the setup but that also adds a lot of potential confusion. For instance a lot of folks get tripped up when they switch to silent mode and discover their external flash units no longer fire. A careful reading of the manual can show why that's the case but there are so many interdependent settings that it's easy to get tripped up on which apply in which situations and which can inhibit or limit some other function. It's not simple to always get it right, but these aren't simple tools, they have a lot of built in complexity.
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Thanks Dave! … When I put the wren (above) on the computer I was amazed, not by anything special about the image, but the obvious absence of grain at 11,400 ISO. It was just a test shot to see if there was NR in the JPEGs that was not in RAW at this setting. I haven’t shot JPEGs for awhile and have found RAW‘s high ISOs noise challenging. Steve has a vid out on this topic and I need to do a look-see-learn…. Wren is kinda cool anyway…
 
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Larry S. said:
Thanks Dave! … When I put the wren (above) on the computer I was amazed, not by anything special about the image, but the obvious absence of grain at 11,400 ISO. It was just a test shot to see if there was NR in the JPEGs that was not in RAW at this setting. I haven’t shot JPEGs for awhile and have found RAW‘s high ISOs noise challenging. Steve has a vid out on this topic and I need to do a look-see-learn…. Wren is kinda cool anyway…
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NR in Lightroom (or Topaz, etc) usually works quite well. I’ve found Steve’s video on NR and sharpening to be very helpful.
 
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Larry S. said:
So the “noise reduction“ (NR) settings do not effect any change if you are shooting RAW? Trying to make sense of that…🤔
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that’s mostly true. the settings don’t impact the raw file itself, however if you are using a “camera” preset in adobe, adobe will use the camera nr setting when it chooses the nr setting in adobe. however this is just how that slider is set, you can still override it
 
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John Navitsky said:
that’s mostly true. the settings don’t impact the raw file itself, however if you are using a “camera” preset in adobe, adobe will use the camera nr setting when it chooses the nr setting in adobe. however this is just how that slider is set, you can still override it
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Thanks John…new day, new stuff to absorb…. My old Nikkor reels and tanks have left the building w/Elvis..🤩
 
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John Navitsky said:
get out of the closet and breathe the fresh air 😂😉
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You nailed me! Yup, Actually did a closet darkroom in the 70’s… Began thinking I should sleep hanging upside down like a bat 🦇 from the red light fixture. Too funny! Haven’t smelled of Microdol-X or seen Agfa paper in 50 years! There’s a reason Adobe calls it “Lightroom”…..
 
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The noise is there at the shooting stage.
The only issue is when and how to take steps to reduce the noise.
In the background - part sidetracking the original discussion - in something like Lightroom applying Denoise to a RAW file gets 10,000 ISO RAW file noise close to 400 ISO and to a moderate extent can increase resolution.
A possible downside using Lightroom is the age and specification of the computer.
My M2 + chip takes about 45 seconds a file.
Some with old computers report up to 10 minutes. Some other PP systems are widely reported as processing the equivalent of Denoise much quicker.

I find with wildlife it is rare for more than 1 in 20 images to merit significant post processing.
This reduces PP time when shooting at high ISO's.
 
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