Does new tech in Sony A1 value aperture over range? Revisiting 600 F4 vs 400 F2.8.

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Sony A1 Wildlife thought: Is the 400 F2.8 now better than the 600 F4 for wildlife?

At what point with advancing technology does aperture out-benefit range? Are we there now if shooting on the A1?

A few considerations with the A1:
  • We're at 50 megapixel standard for flagship cameras now, 21 in crop mode.
  • High megapixel sensors are great, but the trade-off is usually more noise—F2.8 would help here
  • Mirrorless tech in the A1 lets us shoot in crop mode in camera without compromise to AF.
  • With cropping comes the noise associated with it, giving the F/2.8 aperture another advantage.
  • You can still add the 1.4x or 2x teleconverter on top of the 1.5x in camera crop. An F/2.8 offers more flexibility here.
  • AF used to **** the bed at F8. I believe I heard the A1 is advertising it's good up to F22 now. Only point here is, teleconverters have even more value.
  • Target acquisition is easier at 400mm.
What am I missing? Any thoughts you can contribute would be appreciated.
 
Equivalency is a nasty subject fraught with minefields, misunderstandings, and heated opinions.

But, diving in anyway: for field of view, image noise, and DOF purposes, a 400/2.8 will produce images equivalent to shooting with a 600/4 when the body is shooting in 1.5x (APS-C) crop mode. And as an added bonus, I believe your motion blur might benefit from the faster shutter speed offered by f/2.8.

And yet, that faster shutter speed, along with the reduced imaging area, just lowered the total amount of light collected, thereby decreasing SNR and risking visible noise. Maybe that noise is noticeable, maybe not. It will be shot dependent and viewing dependent. Just know that somewhere, somehow, you have to pay the piper.

In the end you can't beat physics. Collecting the maximum number of photons is the ultimate image quality goal, and cropping discards photons. Discarding photons lowers the SNR by reducing the recorded signal faster than the recorded noise.

If 20 years from now you can shoot 60fps wildlife stills with a 500mp noiseless sensor, does that mean a 70-200 or even 24-70 will be enough since you can just crop to your heart's content? Nope. Shot noise still counts, and that comes from photons. Shot noise is simply the variation in discrete photon arrivals at the sensor. No amount of engineering can reduce shot noise. It's a mathematical property of light itself, not the sensor. So past a certain amount of cropping, crops will still look no better than casual low-light cell phone snapshots, and in some cases worse.

Imaging surface area matters, and should still be prioritized IMHO. Cropping to imaging areas of APS-C and maybe m4/3 will likely still produce outstanding photos. Anything less will likely noticeably suffer.

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/
https://www.photonstophotos.net/Emil Martinec/noise.html
 
Thanks for the lesson! Very well put. I think a good, simple rule of thumb to go by, even with new tech and high MP sensors, is to just choose the glass that best fills the frame with the intended subjects. I've been trying to justify the 400 F2.8 for a few days now and I still can't get there... because of physics, like you said.
 
Equivalency is a nasty subject fraught with minefields, misunderstandings, and heated opinions.

But, diving in anyway: for field of view, image noise, and DOF purposes, a 400/2.8 will produce images equivalent to shooting with a 600/4 when the body is shooting in 1.5x (APS-C) crop mode. And as an added bonus, I believe your motion blur might benefit from the faster shutter speed offered by f/2.8.

And yet, that faster shutter speed, along with the reduced imaging area, just lowered the total amount of light collected, thereby decreasing SNR and risking visible noise. Maybe that noise is noticeable, maybe not. It will be shot dependent and viewing dependent. Just know that somewhere, somehow, you have to pay the piper.

In the end you can't beat physics. Collecting the maximum number of photons is the ultimate image quality goal, and cropping discards photons. Discarding photons lowers the SNR by reducing the recorded signal faster than the recorded noise.

If 20 years from now you can shoot 60fps wildlife stills with a 500mp noiseless sensor, does that mean a 70-200 or even 24-70 will be enough since you can just crop to your heart's content? Nope. Shot noise still counts, and that comes from photons. Shot noise is simply the variation in discrete photon arrivals at the sensor. No amount of engineering can reduce shot noise. It's a mathematical property of light itself, not the sensor. So past a certain amount of cropping, crops will still look no better than casual low-light cell phone snapshots, and in some cases worse.

Imaging surface area matters, and should still be prioritized IMHO. Cropping to imaging areas of APS-C and maybe m4/3 will likely still produce outstanding photos. Anything less will likely noticeably suffer.

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/
https://www.photonstophotos.net/Emil Martinec/noise.html
LOL, I was going to write something similar. You explained it perfectly.
 
Equivalency is a nasty subject fraught with minefields, misunderstandings, and heated opinions.
*sigh* so true.
for field of view, image noise, and DOF purposes, a 400/2.8 will produce images equivalent to shooting with a 600/4 when the body is shooting in 1.5x (APS-C) crop mode.
No. You are still shooting 400/2.8. You simply chose to crop the image size in-camera instead of during post-processing.
And yet, that faster shutter speed, along with the reduced imaging area, just lowered the total amount of light collected, thereby decreasing SNR and risking visible noise.
Reducing the image area does not reduce the amount of light collected by each pixel, thus the SNR is not changed.
In the end you can't beat physics.
So true.
Collecting the maximum number of photons is the ultimate image quality goal,
If that is how you define ‘image quality’ then just use a single super-large pixel. NIIRS is a much better definition.
cropping discards photons.
Cropping discards a portion of the image. The individual pixels don’t care.
Imaging surface area matters
When it comes to SNR, pixel surface area matters.
 
No. You are still shooting 400/2.8. You simply chose to crop the image size in-camera instead of during post-processing.
I never said you weren't shooting with a 400/2.8. Respectfully, please read my post more carefully. I said the 400/2.8 will produce images equivalent to shooting with a 600/4 when in APS-C crop mode for DOF, noise, and framing purposes.

If you're not familiar with equivalency, or need to brush up on it, please read this authoritative review of it that I linked to in my first post:

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/
Reducing the image area does not reduce the amount of light collected by each pixel, thus the SNR is not changed.
I never said reducing the image area reduces the amount of light collected by each pixel. Respectfully, please read my post more carefully. I said it reduces the total amount of light collected [in the image as a whole]. I'm not interested in SNR per pixel. I don't look at individual pixels. I'm interested in SNR of the image as a whole, and in problematic areas like the shadows.
If that is how you define ‘image quality’ then just use a single super-large pixel. NIIRS is a much better definition.
I didn't define image quality. Respectfully, please read my post more carefully. My describing "the ultimate image quality goal" is not the same as providing a complete definition.
Cropping discards a portion of the image. The individual pixels don’t care.
I never said cropping affects the pixels remaining in the image. Respectfully, please read my post more carefully.

Individual pixels collect photons. An image is made of individual pixels. Cropping an image is discarding pixels. Therefore cropping an image is discarding photons.
When it comes to SNR, pixel surface area matters.

No one is talking about that. Pixel surface area matters because surface area matters. If surface area matters, imaging area matters. But this entire thread is about cropping on a high resolution, high performance body and how that affects lens purchasing decisions. How do you change the pixel surface area by cropping? The thrust of your post- focusing on single pixel performance and analysis- is not relevant to this thread. The engineering underpinning each pixel, and the dimensions of each pixel, are not a variable in a discussion about cropping.

The key variables, IMHO, are total signal and total noise remaining in the image after cropping.

Have you read Dr. Emil Martinec's (professor of physics & string theorist at University of Chicago) thorough exploration of Noise, Dynamic Range, and Bit Depth in Digital SLRs that I also linked to in my original post?

If not, page 3, section "Big Pixels vs Small Pixels" may interest you. I'll give you a preview:

"Bottom line: Among the important measures of image quality are signal-to-noise ratio of the capture process, and resolution. It was shown that for fixed sensor format, the light collection efficiency per unit area is essentially independent of pixel size, over a huge range of pixel sizes from 2 microns to over 8 microns, and is therefore independent of the number of megapixels. Noise performance per unit area was seen to be only weakly dependent on pixel size. The S/N ratio per unit area is much the same over a wide range of pixel sizes. There is an advantage to big pixels in low light (high ISO) applications, where read noise is an important detractor from image quality, and big pixels currently have lower read noise than aggregations of small pixels of equal area. For low ISO applications, the situation is reversed in current implementations -- if anything, smaller pixels perform somewhat better in terms of S/N ratio (while offering more resolution). A further exploration of these issues can be found on the supplemental page. Rather than having strong dependence on the pixel size, the noise performance instead depends quite strongly on sensor size -- bigger sensors yield higher quality images, by capturing more signal (photons)."

Edit: you may also want to read points #7 and #8 in the "Myths and Common Misunderstandings" section of the equivalence document linked to above. I'll link to point #7 here:

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/#7
 
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Time will tell if the A1 lives up to the promise of "extreme cropping without noise"... I have doubts simply because wildlife shooting with those types of guns still requires shutter speeds in excess of 1/1000s (and over 1/3000s for fast BIF), usually at sunset or sunrise (hence not in bright light), so nobody will be shooting near base ISO. But we'll know soon enough.
But assuming some improved flexibility but probably not what everybody hopes, then I wouldn't trade reach at f:4 for another stop of light. Caveat might be if Sony could create multipliers without image quality loss - then a 400 f:2.8 is also a 560 f:4 and a 800 f:5.6 - that becomes compelling but not at the expense of image quality.

Finally the last thing folks forget about the 400 f:2.8 (pick a brand, any brand), is that it is the exact same weight (plus or minus a couple hundred grams) as a 600mm f:4 but significantly shorter - which I personally find more awkward to balance. OTOH, the 400mm usually have much shorter minimal focusing distances so they are great for setting up your blind/feeder/water bath in the backyard.
 
Well, that didn’t take long. I’m retired, I don’t need this. You guys have fun, I’m out of here...
Hey, I'm super happy to have a discussion here with you and anybody else.

I just ask that you not chop up my reply into 7 tiny pieces and then try to aggressively rebut each of them each in isolation while not actually carefully reading them or understanding the context of the discussion. If you want to be aggressive, I can defend myself aggressively too. If you want to have a friendly discussion, I can do that too, and frankly would prefer it. 🤷
 
Hey guys, there are seriously valid points and differing opinions on both sides and well put, however I think its time to pull the ripcord and bail out of this thread, I mean its ok to agree to disagree.......you know.....

As for the Sony A1, well who cares what it dose and dose not do, its just another leapfrog model camera that will be superseded as fast as all the others.
From what I see the hobby of photography is basically changing more to videography and this is where the last of our skill set is being made obsolete, At 30 FPS you simply scroll through your video till you have the perfect composition then print it, 30 fps will be superseded by 40, 50 then 60 or 100 fps and so on who knows,, I mean really what is there left for us to do,
Auto iso,
Auto focus,
Auto tracking
Auto eye tracking,
Auto exposure,
Now Auto composition is becoming the future in the sense of you can video' and print a perfect frame of your choice from that video clip, really what else is there really for us left to do that requires a skill set...........where is the fun and passion in that going forward.

As always only an opinion
Oz down under
 
Hey guys, there are seriously valid points and differing opinions on both sides and well put, however I think its time to pull the ripcord and bail out of this thread, I mean its ok to agree to disagree.......you know.....

As for the Sony A1, well who cares what it dose and dose not do, its just another leapfrog model camera that will be superseded as fast as all the others.
From what I see the hobby of photography is basically changing more to videography and this is where the last of our skill set is being made obsolete, At 30 FPS you simply scroll through your video till you have the perfect composition then print it, 30 fps will be superseded by 40, 50 then 60 or 100 fps and so on who knows,, I mean really what is there left for us to do,
Auto iso,
Auto focus,
Auto tracking
Auto eye tracking,
Auto exposure,
Now Auto composition is becoming the future in the sense of you can video' and print a perfect frame of your choice from that video clip, really what else is there really for us left to do that requires a skill set...........where is the fun and passion in that going forward.

As always only an opinion
Oz down under

All that's left for us is what really separates a good photo from a great photo. :)

No matter how good the tech gets, the photographer still controls the perspective, composition, what light they shoot with, the way the background / foreground look, subject separation, the choice of subject, the "vision" or "concept" for an image, and the overall "story" of the photo. These are the things (and I'm sure I left quite a few out) that separate field-guide shooters from artists.

IMO, better technology frees us to concentrate on the parts of a photo that really matter and that can't be automated by a processing chip. I firmly believe in what I call the 80-4 rule - 80% of a great image comes form 4" behind the viewfinder. All of this tech allows us to really explore, expand, and develop the creative side of the process, unencumbered by the need to constantly monitor the technology to make sure the 20% of the equation is getting done.
 
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