Is a Fine tune setting of +18, +20 mean a lens is defective?

[blong10]

I recently purchased a used Tamron 24-70 G2 and at 70MM it's way off. If I dial in +19 it's super sharp and perfect. 50mm is the same as well. I have read other's using the tap in console and adjusting it by length. I purchased this camera from an online photography store that has a good reputation according to eBay. Just don't if a setting this high means it's detective. I also tried to use Steve's target to calibrate and I always get fine-tune failed. My other lenses work fine to fine-tune

 

[Steve]

I'd be concerned. Technically if at +19 it's perfect at all focal lengths, then it's OK with that camera. However, what I would worry about is if you purchased another body down the road and the lens fell outside the tolerances for that setup (like you need +22 or something). The Tamron console may be a solution though - or swap it for another copy if they have one and will allow it.

 

[Pistnbroke]

You will get fine tune fail if you are not in AF-s ...you must look at the top of the rear LCD to check not the top LCD ..I think when it fails the rear will show AF-f....use the dial to move it to AF-s.You will also get fail if the lens has already been set on a tap in.
I think you should get the tap in console and then use the auto fine tune to get the figures for the tap in .Very quick to do . or change it and get a tap in.
The variations in fine tune are not in the bodies but in the lenses. Once you have the fine tune established the lens is good on any Nikon FX or DX at those settings.

 

[Thern]

I'd be concerned. Technically if at +19 it's perfect at all focal lengths, then it's OK with that camera. However, what I would worry about is if you purchased another body down the road and the lens fell outside the tolerances for that setup (like you need +22 or something). The Tamron console may be a solution though - or swap it for another copy if they have one and will allow it.

Wondering wether the former owner would have done that already Steve?
Assume the former owner had a body which was asking for a -10 AFFT value (example) and he tapped that value in the lens.
The camera of the new owner needs a +9 AFFT value but since the camera ‘equals’ -10 to zero he needs +19 to get at +9.

The son of a friend of mine once bought a second hand Sigma 150-600S and when it arrived he told us after a day it was way off with terrible frontfocus.
We old farts had a look at it and concluded it to be defective, then our youngest of the photoclub joined the party and started talking about some docking station (she shoots Sigma too) She went home, came back, put the lens on her docking station and reset the lens to default with the app on her laptop.
The lens was working like a charm after the reset!

 

[blong10]

Thanks, guys! I have ordered a Tamron Tap-in console to see if a reset would fix the lens. If it's still giving me + 18 or higher I'll return the lens on eBay. All my other lenses fine-tune correctly except this lens. Sometimes I get AF fine-tune failed and sometimes I don't. Is it possible to get focus but we too close to the target to fine-tune?

Quick update

Not sure if this helps or not. I had the +19 for AF Fine-tune but when I took a picture of a faraway object (I'm at 70mm) like a cement pole it now back focuses badly. If I then dial in a 0 it is sharp. But when I'm at 70MM and focus close it needs the +19 to be sharp. It seems to me like someone has settings previously that have been used with the Tap in console. What do you guys think?

 

[Ado Wolf]

I had the same issue last week with my Nikon 24 mm 1.8 / Finetuning was dialed at +18. Since the lens was still under warranty, I returned it to Nikon last week. Today I got it back with the following comment from Nikon: Autofocus aligned, lens checked. When I tested it, it was spot on / no Finetuning required.
So my advise would be to return it / exchange it if this is an option.

 

[Steve]

Wondering wether the former owner would have done that already Steve?
Assume the former owner had a body which was asking for a -10 AFFT value (example) and he tapped that value in the lens.
The camera of the new owner needs a +9 AFFT value but since the camera ‘equals’ -10 to zero he needs +19 to get at +9.

The son of a friend of mine once bought a second hand Sigma 150-600S and when it arrived he told us after a day it was way off with terrible frontfocus.
We old farts had a look at it and concluded it to be defective, then our youngest of the photoclub joined the party and started talking about some docking station (she shoots Sigma too) She went home, came back, put the lens on her docking station and reset the lens to default with the app on her laptop.
The lens was working like a charm after the reset!

Very good point. I never use third party lenses, so this didn't occur to me at all (I'm used to the setting in-camera). I wonder if you hit the nail on the head!

 

[Pistnbroke]

When you use a lens that has been adjusted on the tap in you set the camera FFA to zero. All the compensation is done in the lens.
Once the lens has been on a doc you cannot get it back to zero without using the doc again. Only then can you do the FFA the old way at one focal length.
If I sold one of my Tam 100-400 and left the settings from the doc in it it would be fine on any Nikon FX or DX without further adjustment.

 

[gordon_g]

Learn something new everyday...

 

[KCPhoto]

If I sold one of my Tam 100-400 and left the settings from the doc in it it would be fine on any Nikon FX or DX without further adjustment.

Unfortunately, I would have to disagree with this particular statement. You are correct the adjustment is "in the lens" after using the doc. But tolerances between bodies would still exist and therefore adjustment can vary from body to body as always. You are simply starting from a different zero, so to speak with the lens vs what it was at from the factory. My Sigma 150-600 that I sold needed two different values between my 2 bodies. So I set it at varying focal lengths to match is most mated camera. Then adjusted to get as close as I could with dot tune and the single adjustment of AFFT in the D810. It needed about -4 if I remember correctly. The 200-500 needed nothing in my D810, but has +6 on my D500.

 

[KCPhoto]

I recently purchased a used Tamron 24-70 G2 and at 70MM it's way off. If I dial in +19 it's super sharp and perfect. 50mm is the same as well. I have read other's using the tap in console and adjusting it by length. I purchased this camera from an online photography store that has a good reputation according to eBay. Just don't if a setting this high means it's detective. I also tried to use Steve's target to calibrate and I always get fine-tune failed. My other lenses work fine to fine-tune

Steve's advice to simply swap if possible is good certainly if the reset via dock doesn't fix the issue. My 24-70 G2 is absolutely awesome sharp up to about 65mm. It seems to lose sharpness noticeably for that last little twist. I have not played with it on my dock yet, but don't really think it is a focus issue, just simply softness at the very, very top end.

 

[blong10]

Steve's advice to simply swap if possible is good certainly if the reset via dock doesn't fix the issue. My 24-70 G2 is absolutely awesome sharp up to about 65mm. It seems to lose sharpness noticeably for that last little twist. I have not played with it on my dock yet, but don't really think it is a focus issue, just simply softness at the very, very top end.

Unfortunately in my case it's front focusing badly on 70mm, 50mm to name a few. I'm going to try the tamron tap in which should be here tomorrow and give that a go.

 

[BCcanuck]

Interesting post to me. I have two D500 bodies and two Nikon 105mm 2.8 macro lenses. One set is mine and one is my wifes. Both lenses fine tuned on both bodies using FoCal needed +18 to produce tack sharp images. All our other lenses (all Nikon) sit between -5 to +6. Go figure??

 

[Palouse]

If I sold one of my Tam 100-400 and left the settings from the doc in it it would be fine on any Nikon FX or DX without further adjustment.

I'm confused.
If adjusting the focus settings using a dock makes a lens perfect on any camera, then why doesn't Tamron simply adjust the lens before they ship it? With Sigma you shot a series of pictures a variety of settings/focal lengths/etc. Then you put the lens on the dock and used the computer app to adjust the lens—i.e., matching it to THAT specific camera.

 

[KCPhoto]

I'm confused.
If adjusting the focus settings using a dock makes a lens perfect on any camera, then why doesn't Tamron simply adjust the lens before they ship it? With Sigma you shot a series of pictures a variety of settings/focal lengths/etc. Then you put the lens on the dock and used the computer app to adjust the lens—i.e., matching it to THAT specific camera.

That is the method with Tamron as well.

 

[Pistnbroke]

You have this back to front. I learned long before docs were invented that if you set the FFA on a lens and it was say +10 then it was +10 on all the other nikons. The cameras are adjusted very carefully at the factory to tight tolerances and are all essentially the same.I have two N 28-300 one is +10 the other +2. I must fit them to the correct body or the pictures are out of focus.They are not interchangable.
Now if you use a tap in doc and adjust your settings on a D850 then those same settings will work on a D7200 or D800. The offsets are stored within the lens so are communicated to the camera when you fit the lens. this means you areable to swop the lens between bodies. I have two Tam 100-400 , one is all + and the other all - but they can be fitted to any nikon.
If you have settings programmed into a lens then trying to do Auto AF fine tune is no good as the lens settings send the camera crazy and its meaningless jumping around .

 

[Thern]

I'm confused.
If adjusting the focus settings using a dock makes a lens perfect on any camera, then why doesn't Tamron simply adjust the lens before they ship it? With Sigma you shot a series of pictures a variety of settings/focal lengths/etc. Then you put the lens on the dock and used the computer app to adjust the lens—i.e., matching it to THAT specific camera.

Don’t be confused, you’re absolutely correct.
You match a specific lens with a specific camera.
Different cameras may need different values with that very same lens.
When performing AFFT you’re using the camera setting to compensate for back- or frontfocus.
The camera ‘tells’ the lens to aim the focuspoint a bit nearer or furtheraway than it would without that compensation dialed in.
In case of a Sigma or Tamron lens there’s an ‘extra translator’ to provide the possibility to AFFT at more than a single focal lenght.

 

[Johnnypanic]

With the introduction, of these lens docks, it would be good etiquitte for anyone selling a lens to "reset" the lens to the factory default and advise the buyer accordingly.

 

[Pistnbroke]

Thern ..

My experience is that you are wrong. A lens needing +8 or whatever needs +8 on any Nikon.
When these cameras are made the position of the focus sensor below the mirror is adjusted mechanically with two Allen screws. If you have used the Nikon service software you will know that the focus adjustment can be swung + or - 40. A Nikon test lens requiring zero correction is fitted and the default setting moved to zero with software. When you do fine focus adjust you are compensating for tolerances in the lens of which there are many more than in the mirror box.

 

[Thern]

With the introduction, of these lens docks, it would be good etiquitte for anyone selling a lens to "reset" the lens to the factory default and advise the buyer accordingly.

My guess is most sellers don’t even think about that.
Would be smart if one buys such lens secondhand to ask the seller to reset it or to buy the dock too.
I know it’s ‘the other way around’ but if one can avoid frustration why not?!

@Pistnbroke

Your experience is not mine, I’ve seen to many lenses needing different AFFT values with different bodies.
AFFT is lens/body combination specific.
Let’s agree to disagree.

HERE’s a nice read on the subject.

If you don’t care to read the article, here’s a quote from it.

An important fact to keep in mind, is that calibration is camera and lens specific, which means that if you have multiple cameras and lenses, you have to fine tune autofocus on each camera, for each lens you own

 

[Pistnbroke]

You will find small variations due to test method particularly if you use a sloping scale but in essence a lens thats +10 will be that figure with a small tolerance on any Nikon . It will never go to +2 or make a radical change

 

[Graham Clark]

I’ve seen to many lenses needing different AFFT values with different bodies.
AFFT is lens/body combination specific.

Exactly this^^

For example, my 300mm f/2.8 needs +3 on one D500 and -2 on the second D500.

 

[Steve]

Thern ..

My experience is that you are wrong. A lens needing +8 or whatever needs +8 on any Nikon.
When these cameras are made the position of the focus sensor below the mirror is adjusted mechanically with two Allen screws. If you have used the Nikon service software you will know that the focus adjustment can be swung + or - 40. A Nikon test lens requiring zero correction is fitted and the default setting moved to zero with software. When you do fine focus adjust you are compensating for tolerances in the lens of which there are many more than in the mirror box.

That's not been my experience either. Although, in my experience a good portion of the time large calibrations - or any - aren't needed at all.

EDIT - upon thinking about this a little, I do recall a few times where a lens needed the same / similar adjustment on multiple cameras, so I'm not saying that scenario isn't possible either.

Also, consider this.

On mirrorless cameras, very seldom is AFFT required, even when using the same lenses that did require it on a DSLR. If the variance was more lens-centric, then it would follow that you'd need the same adjustment on a mirrorless camera too. I know that the argument here is that PDAF is done on-sensor so it should be perfect, but it's still PDAF. If the camera calculates the phase differential and then sends that signal to the lens, if the lens is required calibration, it'll still be off. PDAF doesn't do any kind of CDAF trim (that we know of) on mirrorless.

 

[kimball]

PDAF doesn't do any kind of CDAF trim (that we know of) on mirrorless.

Jim Kasson seems to have it on good authority there is a CDAF trim phase on Nikon's Z bodies it at least some AF modes. He's got 30 pages of blog post entries on the Z6 & Z7, so it's hard to find an authoritative post on the subject, but the two below reference CDAF trim.

Z7 vs D850 AFS accuracy with Nikon 58/1.4 - the last word

This is one in a series of posts on the Nikon Z7. You should be able to find all the posts about that camera in the Category List on the right sidebar, below the Articles widget. There’s a drop-down menu there that you can use to get to all the posts in this series; just

blog.kasson.com

Z7 AF accuracy compared to DSLRs - the last word

This is one in a series of posts on the Nikon Z7. You should be able to find all the posts about that camera in the Category List on the right sidebar, below the Articles widget. There’s a drop-down menu there that you can use to get to all the posts in this series; just

blog.kasson.com

 

[Steve]

Jim Kasson seems to have it on good authority there is a CDAF trim phase on Nikon's Z bodies it at least some AF modes. He's got 30 pages of blog post entries on the Z6 & Z7, so it's hard to find an authoritative post on the subject, but the two below reference CDAF trim.

Z7 vs D850 AFS accuracy with Nikon 58/1.4 - the last word

This is one in a series of posts on the Nikon Z7. You should be able to find all the posts about that camera in the Category List on the right sidebar, below the Articles widget. There’s a drop-down menu there that you can use to get to all the posts in this series; just

blog.kasson.com

Z7 AF accuracy compared to DSLRs - the last word

This is one in a series of posts on the Nikon Z7. You should be able to find all the posts about that camera in the Category List on the right sidebar, below the Articles widget. There’s a drop-down menu there that you can use to get to all the posts in this series; just

blog.kasson.com

I've read quite a few debates about it CDAF trim - most of which from people far smarter than I am - and they always end with no one really being able to prove anything. Although, I really do respect Jim's methods and conclusions most of the time.

Sadly, Nikon won't confirm CDAF trim one way or another, other than to say that pinpoint AF is CDAF (which we all know). It's certainly possible they are doing a quick trim in AF-S mode (and that may be what Jim is using), but I think it becomes increasingly unlikely in AF-C mode - I would think the camera would constantly drop the target if that were the case.

And than there's AFFT...

The reason I bring up AF-C is this. My thought on it is that typically we do AF Fine tuning with AF-S. If you did encounter a lens that required it on your Z camera and tried to tune it in AF-S, it would always show no adjustment necessary due to the CDAF trim. However, if without the trim it needed +10 or something, you'd have some pretty severe back focus every time you used it in AF-C (again, this assumes to CDAF trimix AF-C and I do believe that's the case). Since Nikon does allow for AF Fine tune on the Z cameras and since they don't make any mention of this, it leads be to believe that there's not much CDAF trim going on. I would think they would have to warn you about it. Again, speculation on my part, but it seems to make sense. Nikon is usually pretty good about letting you know exceptions to their procedures.

So, at least for now, I fall into the camp that isn't so sure that any CDAF trim is happening. I could be wrong of course, but I'd really like to see some sort of verification from Nikon about it or some kind of visual clue in the viewfinder that I've yet been able to detect (and of course, it may happen and it's too fast to see).

In short, I wish Nikon was a bit more transparent about it. I'd really like to know for sure one way or another what's going on.