JPEG < HEIF < RAW?

[Larry S.]

Travel photography with a camera and an iPhone has occasionally left me frustrated trying to duplicate the quality of the Apple gadget. Yup, & s… I get that. Here’s the players… An iPhone 12 that has a 12MP camera and a small light weight full frame (FX) Nikon Df…16MP. Pretty close in resolution. The Df has some of the D4’s sensors, etc. pretty cool, a small retro camera and fun to shoot. For vacations I shoot JPEGs in the Df and the iPhone has a file format called HEIF (High Efficiency Image Format). The iPhone images always seem to have more “pop” in rendering a scene with better color, detail, etc. I don’t know if this HEIF technology is proprietary to Apple or not. Two things I found on the internet (if you can trust the chatter) was that HEIF is the next “incarnation” of JPEGs… the other thing was that the HEIF file can capture HDR (high dynamic range) without the delay issues cameras encounter.
To present an example of this I took 2 shots along a shoreline. The first one with the Nikon Df/24mm f/2.8 lens and the other with the iPhone 12. The difference is very noticeable. Neither image was edited and are straight out of the cameras..
Hopefully some “Forum” members can shed some light (bad joke) on why I’m seeing this. I have tried every setting in”picture control” and nothing seems to come close to HEIF’s image. I could certainly shoot in RAW but for vacations and candids JPEG’s have been fine……until now. Duh….

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[Larry S.]

Post script….. these images are in reduced resolution in order to post……

 

[John Navitsky]

in general i think the phone bakes in a lot of processing. if you want to replicate that in a camera jpg, look for a profile like “vivid” crank up contrast and sharpness settings

 

[Larry S.]

Thanks John, I tried all the picture control settings, including vivid and there was minimal change. The contrast/sharpness setting will get a look-see….

 

[Cameron T]

in general i think the phone bakes in a lot of processing. if you want to replicate that in a camera jpg, look for a profile like “vivid” crank up contrast and sharpness settings

Yep. Phones of any sort do a ton of processing before you see the image.

To op, if you shoot raw, you get to develop your own pictures, which I'd recommend. Shooting in a flat camera profile the jpgs won't be impressive. Nothing to do with camera vs phone, just post processing steps.

 

[Nimi]

Travel photography with a camera and an iPhone has occasionally left me frustrated trying to duplicate the quality of the Apple gadget. Yup, & s… I get that. Here’s the players… An iPhone 12 that has a 12MP camera and a small light weight full frame (FX) Nikon Df…16MP. Pretty close in resolution. The Df has some of the D4’s sensors, etc. pretty cool, a small retro camera and fun to shoot. For vacations I shoot JPEGs in the Df and the iPhone has a file format called HEIF (High Efficiency Image Format). The iPhone images always seem to have more “pop” in rendering a scene with better color, detail, etc. I don’t know if this HEIF technology is proprietary to Apple or not. Two things I found on the internet (if you can trust the chatter) was that HEIF is the next “incarnation” of JPEGs… the other thing was that the HEIF file can capture HDR (high dynamic range) without the delay issues cameras encounter.
To present an example of this I took 2 shots along a shoreline. The first one with the Nikon Df/24mm f/2.8 lens and the other with the iPhone 12. The difference is very noticeable. Neither image was edited and are straight out of the cameras..
Hopefully some “Forum” members can shed some light (bad joke) on why I’m seeing this. I have tried every setting in”picture control” and nothing seems to come close to HEIF’s image. I could certainly shoot in RAW but for vacations and candids JPEG’s have been fine……until now. Duh….

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If most of the viewing is going to be phones and you don't need to crop heavily, just shoot with phone. The latest iteration (15) rivals pretty much any camera, and it's 45mp.

If you're trying to match your Df, shoot RAW, then click the "auto" adjust in Lightroom. It will create a similar curve, make the photo more saturated, bring up the shadows, etc.

 

[John Navitsky]

i think heif does provide an advantage over jpg in general, it allows for hdr if i recall correctly.

note while i don’t run jpgs so i can’t really compare to camera jpgs, i do think the phone images really fall apart quickly if you try to crop or process them.

 

[MotoPixel]

The issue you're seeing is tied to the fact that many of the current crop of iPhones and others record photos and videos in essentially an HDR format with HLG gamma and BT.2020 color gamut. This format of still and video recording takes advantage of, and requires, the attributes of higher brightness and wide gamut displays. The Z8 can shoot photos and video in HDR with the HLG mode in video and now also in stills.

I've been doing a lot of testing of these modes and to really get any benefit of them, you do need an HDR display to fully appreciate what they bring to the table. I have been shooting HDR content and uploading to YT...when viewed on any of the phones with HDR video capability, it's got that same pop that you see on video or stills shot on the phone. If you view the content on YT with an SDR display, it looks normal. Displayed on a large, HDR capable TV, they are stunning.

That's the general overview...and for stills, I am now shooting RAW+HIF* so that I have a still that I can share to friends and family for viewing on their phone or an HDR display. For standard usage, I process the RAW files as I normally would. Lightroom Classic can produce an HDR file from the RAW, but it's more work.

Cheers!

 

[EricBowles]

The iPhone image is more saturated and has brighter shadows. It's not because it is a HEIF. Apple tunes the iPhone for point and shoot mode - settings that give you high saturation, lower highlights, and brighter shadows. There is some level of AI involved. But it's a tiny lens and has a lot of limitations. Try to think about what's hardware and what's post processing.

If you optimize your camera for a JPEG with a Standard picture control, possibly increased saturation, and Active D-lighting on Medium, you would get something very similar.

I think all of us get a little used to taking a flat RAW image and editing it in the software of choice. But the current Nikon cameras are perfectly capable of producing publication ready JPEG files if you take a few minutes to learn the settings and set it up to your taste.

I was going through some images today for an article on AF. A few days ago I tested the Z8 and 400mm f/4.5 with a half second burst at 60 fps. The camera and lens were handheld and I was in a canoe on slowly moving water. Every image was sharp using animal subject detection - with it picking up the head first and then 25 frames with the eye detected. All this was at 1/200 sec and ISO 1000. My iPhone would have been silly for such a series.

HEIF is a new format that will likely be better than JPEG. But the differences you are seeing are not related to image rendering or image compression. It's just the default rendering. Apple has assumed that most users want good photos without editing. It's similar to the way film processing was typically optimized for higher saturation and optimal exposure.

 

[MotoPixel]

Larry,

I see that the Zf supports HLG mode. Here is something you can try...shoot a colorful, high contrast photo on your Zf in HEIF mode, then email it or use whatever method you need to to get it on your phone...open it on your phone and you'll see that it has the same wide gamut and high dynamic range as an image taken on the phone...

 

[John Navitsky]

keep in mind there are a variety of new things to take into consideration when enabling HLG, so beware the rabbit hole

 

[MotoPixel]

John,

We'd be curious to hear an explanation of your comment. There was a long discussion of some of this earlier when the Z8 first came out and what I've been doing lately is nailing down a good use case for the HLG format. Yes, there are some considerations in shooting HLG, either video or stills, mostly with regards to exposure and different minimum ISO options.

To put it as simply as possible, unless you're going to be viewing HLG stills on an HDR capable display or integrating them into HDR video content, I can't see a use case for shooting in that mode.

That said, I have begun shooting some HDR video content and I've also remastered a video slide show of images shot in RAW on a Z9 to HDR and the results are outstanding when viewed on a large HDR TV. Once you get the workflow nailed down, it's easy to produce and share content in HDR via YT or Vimeo and viewers will see either HDR or SDR, depending on their viewing device capabilities.

 

[Larry S.]

Larry,

I see that the Zf supports HLG mode. Here is something you can try...shoot a colorful, high contrast photo on your Zf in HEIF mode, then email it or use whatever method you need to to get it on your phone...open it on your phone and you'll see that it has the same wide gamut and high dynamic range as an image taken on the phone...

Moto…. I have a Df, not a Zf so I’ll look into those options for availability. I do shoot Z8/9 and D850 also. I have LrC for RAW images but have run into this issue that seems to be JPEG vs. HEIF thing…..

 

[MotoPixel]

Oops, my bad...to my knowledge, the Z8 and Zf are the only models that currently give you an option to shoot HLG...hopefully the Z9 will get that at the next firmware update.

 

[Larry S.]

If most of the viewing is going to be phones and you don't need to crop heavily, just shoot with phone. The latest iteration (15) rivals pretty much any camera, and it's 45mp.

If you're trying to match your Df, shoot RAW, then click the "auto" adjust in Lightroom. It will create a similar curve, make the photo more saturated, bring up the shadows, etc.

Nimi, Great advice! However, I do like to have a tele or medium zoom in the 70-300 range available on vacations for the Df…. just in case.. I’ve found the telephoto feature on phones dismal at best and not very useful. The RAW suggestion for the Df may be the simplest route….

 

[Larry S.]

Oops, my bad...to my knowledge, the Z8 and Zf are the only models that currently give you an option to shoot HLG...hopefully the Z9 will get that at the next firmware update.

I’ll look into HLG for the Z8….hmmmm

 

[MotoPixel]

Here is a link to the HDR video I mentioned in one of the previous posts. This from stills that I remastered to HDR recently once I figured out the requirements for YT and the settings in DaVinci Resolve. It will play in HDR on YT with your iPhone 12 Pro Max or on an HDR capable Smart TV that has a YT app.

 

[Larry S.]

The iPhone image is more saturated and has brighter shadows. It's not because it is a HEIF. Apple tunes the iPhone for point and shoot mode - settings that give you high saturation, lower highlights, and brighter shadows. There is some level of AI involved. But it's a tiny lens and has a lot of limitations. Try to think about what's hardware and what's post processing.

If you optimize your camera for a JPEG with a Standard picture control, possibly increased saturation, and Active D-lighting on Medium, you would get something very similar.

I think all of us get a little used to taking a flat RAW image and editing it in the software of choice. But the current Nikon cameras are perfectly capable of producing publication ready JPEG files if you take a few minutes to learn the settings and set it up to your taste.

I was going through some images today for an article on AF. A few days ago I tested the Z8 and 400mm f/4.5 with a half second burst at 60 fps. The camera and lens were handheld and I was in a canoe on slowly moving water. Every image was sharp using animal subject detection - with it picking up the head first and then 25 frames with the eye detected. All this was at 1/200 sec and ISO 1000. My iPhone would have been silly for such a series.

HEIF is a new format that will likely be better than JPEG. But the differences you are seeing are not related to image rendering or image compression. It's just the default rendering. Apple has assumed that most users want good photos without editing. It's similar to the way film processing was typically optimized for higher saturation and optimal exposure.

Eric,
Thank you for taking all that time to provide helpful input. I have used the active “D” lighting with subjects in shadows. The darn thing actually works well in most situations. Usually back lit where details are in shadows… Sort of like HDR “Lite”. ….I’ll revisit settings…..again

 

[David Berry]

My iPhone 15 Pro Max has four lenses. For best quality I use the 1x (Main Camera 24 mm) and ensure that the RAW/MAX icon does not have a slash through it.

For a phone, the resulting DNG files are of outstanding quality, but not up to the standard of DNG files produced by my ageing, but handy, little 'real' camera's integrated 28 mm lens.

Phone and real camera have the same pixel count (sensor) and same maximum aperture (lens). Physical size, in this case of lens and sensor, does matter.

… David

 

[John Navitsky]

John,

We'd be curious to hear an explanation of your comment. There was a long discussion of some of this earlier when the Z8 first came out and what I've been doing lately is nailing down a good use case for the HLG format. Yes, there are some considerations in shooting HLG, either video or stills, mostly with regards to exposure and different minimum ISO options.

To put it as simply as possible, unless you're going to be viewing HLG stills on an HDR capable display or integrating them into HDR video content, I can't see a use case for shooting in that mode.

That said, I have begun shooting some HDR video content and I've also remastered a video slide show of images shot in RAW on a Z9 to HDR and the results are outstanding when viewed on a large HDR TV. Once you get the workflow nailed down, it's easy to produce and share content in HDR via YT or Vimeo and viewers will see either HDR or SDR, depending on their viewing device capabilities.

i’m most referring back to that discussion and Steve’s investigation.

my takeaway was shooting HLG meant a different algorithm is used when encoding your data, distributing exposure differently, but that means you have to use that same algorithm throughout your processing pipeline so it’s not just something you flip on and can forget

 

[EricBowles]

Eric,
Thank you for taking all that time to provide helpful input. I have used the active “D” lighting with subjects in shadows. The darn thing actually works well in most situations. Usually back lit where details are in shadows… Sort of like HDR “Lite”. ….I’ll revisit settings…..again

Only use ADL for JPEG or similar files - at any setting other than Low, it reduces exposure and applies a curve. If you are processing the RAW file it is underexposed. But for a JPEG, it's a nice level of shadow recovery that works for contrasty situations. You can do something similar in post processing, but I found ADL does a nice job of applying the curve to the RAW data which means it handles gaps of sky along a treeline better than many sky selection tools.

 

[MikeInMI]

The phones have sophisticated post processing algorithms as others before me have mentioned, and they do a pretty terrific job! When traveling, I’ve often shot landscape with my Sony A1 while my wife took the same picture with her iPhone (and not a newer one) and hers looked pretty darn terrific without having to go through all the post work. In fact, in most cases, I’d say hers looked every bit as good as mine.

In a few weeks we are going on an Asian cruise. I decided not to lug all of my equipment on daily 8 - 9 hour sightseeing tours at the various ports, so I bought a Sony RX100 VII which is a very capable camera that fits in my pocket. BUT THEN, I just updated my phone to an iPhone 15 Pro. I’m a bit in awe of the dynamic range, and I can now shoot the phone at 77mm. So while I will take my little Sony with me, I’m giving serious thought to taking most of my travel photos with my iPhone.

 

[MotoPixel]

i’m most referring back to that discussion and Steve’s investigation.

my takeaway was shooting HLG meant a different algorithm is used when encoding your data, distributing exposure differently, but that means you have to use that same algorithm throughout your processing pipeline so it’s not just something you flip on and can forget

John,

True, and that's because the only real reason to shoot HLG is to end up with a finished product that will be displayed on a device that supports that format...meaning a phone with some level of HDR display, PC with HDR monitor, HDR Flat Panel/TV or Graphics/Video Projector that supports HDR. If your final images are going to be printed or shown on SDR displays as we've all done for years, then shooting RAW and using an sRGB or Adobe color space is the easiest way to get there. It's going to be a long time before sRGB is displaced as the dominant display profile for electronic display.

That said, I there is already a growing use of HDR images in advertising and public display via relatively inexpensive, very large, flat panel displays...the images, whether video or stills, can be intensely bright, dynamic, colorful and attention getting. As was the case for the OP, people are seeing the bright, dynamic videos and stills on their phones and wondering why they can't get that with expensive dedicated cameras...well, now we can...we just need more "infrastructure" to enable viewing on something other than our phones.

With HEIF or HIF files, you do get that added benefit of 10 or 12 bpp and the larger BT.2020 color space, but if you're not looking to end up with an HLG HDR image, you can get there, perhaps easier, just starting with a RAW image. I think Andy Miller has done some work in this area and can comment further. Myself, I'm not going to go any further down that rabbit hole as I have a use case for both HLG HDR stills and videos...for non-HDR uses, I'll do what we've always been doing, shoot RAW for stills and N-RAW or N-Log for video.

Cheers!

 

[Larry S.]

The phones have sophisticated post processing algorithms as others before me have mentioned, and they do a pretty terrific job! When traveling, I’ve often shot landscape with my Sony A1 while my wife took the same picture with her iPhone (and not a newer one) and hers looked pretty darn terrific without having to go through all the post work. In fact, in most cases, I’d say hers looked every bit as good as mine.

In a few weeks we are going on an Asian cruise. I decided not to lug all of my equipment on daily 8 - 9 hour sightseeing tours at the various ports, so I bought a Sony RX100 VII which is a very capable camera that fits in my pocket. BUT THEN, I just updated my phone to an iPhone 15 Pro. I’m a bit in awe of the dynamic range, and I can now shoot the phone at 77mm. So while I will take my little Sony with me, I’m giving serious thought to taking most of my travel photos with my iPhone.

Thank you Mike….. The current iPhone photos are amazing in most every way. For vacation travel and candid shots they are hard to beat. It was disappointed I couldn’t duplicate the iPhone quality with minimal tinkering in the Nikon Df…

 

[Larry S.]

My iPhone 15 Pro Max has four lenses. For best quality I use the 1x (Main Camera 24 mm) and ensure that the RAW/MAX icon does not have a slash through it.

For a phone, the resulting DNG files are of outstanding quality, but not up to the standard of DNG files produced by my ageing, but handy, little 'real' camera's integrated 28 mm lens.

Phone and real camera have the same pixel count (sensor) and same maximum aperture (lens). Physical size, in this case of lens and sensor, does matter.

… David

Thanks David!