lens advice sought

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wotan1

wotan1

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I am debating another lens purchase and am seeking advice and recommendations.

My interest is primarily bird photography. My relevant camera bodies are Z9 and Z7ii. I also have the Z400mm f4.5 and the Z600mm PF. as well as the two Z teleconverters, 1.4 and 2x. I am happy with both of those lenses.

I have lusted after the Z 600mm f4 tc vr but that amount of money is not in my current budget.

I was considering buying a used f mount 600mm f4 E FL.

Would appreciate feedback and advice as well as any other recommendations.
 
wotan1 said:
I am debating another lens purchase and am seeking advice and recommendations.

My interest is primarily bird photography. My relevant camera bodies are Z9 and Z7ii. I also have the Z400mm f4.5 and the Z600mm PF. as well as the two Z teleconverters, 1.4 and 2x. I am happy with both of those lenses.

I have lusted after the Z 600mm f4 tc vr but that amount of money is not in my current budget.

I was considering buying a used f mount 600mm f4 E FL.

Would appreciate feedback and advice as well as any other recommendations.
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Doesn't seem like a winner to me given what you already have. You'd gain a little more aperture but I wouldn't think it would be worth it since what you have is already good image quality for the money.
 
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Reach is fine, the experience with f/4 glass would be the reason. Trying to find if it would be worth it.

I rented the 800 pf before I bought the 600mm pf. That helped me to decide on the 600 pf and I am glad I made that choice.

I guess I could rent the F mount 600 f4 and see what I think.
 
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wotan1 said:
I am debating another lens purchase and am seeking advice and recommendations.

My interest is primarily bird photography. My relevant camera bodies are Z9 and Z7ii. I also have the Z400mm f4.5 and the Z600mm PF. as well as the two Z teleconverters, 1.4 and 2x. I am happy with both of those lenses.

I have lusted after the Z 600mm f4 tc vr but that amount of money is not in my current budget.

I was considering buying a used f mount 600mm f4 E FL.

Would appreciate feedback and advice as well as any other recommendations.
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Not to be flip but what would you really hope to achieve with the 600mm f4 TC that you’re not enjoying now? If you‘re a pro, then sure go for it to give you that extra little edge or, if you have loads of expendable cash then what the hell, why not? Quite honestly, I’d be very happy with the kit you already have, but then I’m just a geezer who’s learned to make the most of what he has.
 
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wotan1 said:
I am debating another lens purchase and am seeking advice and recommendations.

My interest is primarily bird photography. My relevant camera bodies are Z9 and Z7ii. I also have the Z400mm f4.5 and the Z600mm PF. as well as the two Z teleconverters, 1.4 and 2x. I am happy with both of those lenses.

I have lusted after the Z 600mm f4 tc vr but that amount of money is not in my current budget.

I was considering buying a used f mount 600mm f4 E FL.

Would appreciate feedback and advice as well as any other recommendations.
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Wotan1,
I feel that your current lens selection will meet your needs and make you happy for years. I have the opposite issue that all my glass is F mount including a 600F4 G bodies are Z9, D4, D850. From what I’ve read the Z9 will make the F mount glass better. So maybe rent a 600 F4 E and compare it to your current 600PF. If the 600E makes you happy, then save. Then luck is on your side a 600F4 E is now more affordable with the introduction of the TC.
 
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wotan1 said:
I am debating another lens purchase and am seeking advice and recommendations.

My interest is primarily bird photography. My relevant camera bodies are Z9 and Z7ii. I also have the Z400mm f4.5 and the Z600mm PF. as well as the two Z teleconverters, 1.4 and 2x. I am happy with both of those lenses.

I have lusted after the Z 600mm f4 tc vr but that amount of money is not in my current budget.

I was considering buying a used f mount 600mm f4 E FL.

Would appreciate feedback and advice as well as any other recommendations.
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I don't have the same lens lineup as you, but my situation is similar to yours in that I still own a 500mm f/4E despite owning a 500 f/5.6 PF and 800 f/6.3 PF. Like you, I shoot birds with a Z9 (formerly with D850s and other DSLRs). I've kept the 500 f/4E because I appreciate having the option to shoot at a higher shutter speed and/or lower ISO than with my slower telephotos in low light situations. It's a bit of a luxury, and there's a weight penalty to be sure, but the Nikon 400 to 600 E lenses produce outstanding IQ and work great with TCs, especially the 1.4x. In your situation, with a 600 f/4E and a TC-14E iii, you'd be able to shoot with minimal IQ loss at 840mm and f/5.6, which is still faster than the 600 f/6.3 PF. And of course you'd have the 1-1/3 stop advantage with the bare lens. I just find that in shadows or near dawn and dusk, the f/4 advantage is nice to have. My only concern with the 600E would be that it might require shooting from a tripod or monopod, whereas the 600 PF should be easily handheld.

I'll add that I've considered the 400 PF and 600 PF. The 400 PF is intriguing for its small size and weight and relatively fast aperture, although I find 400mm too short for a full time birding lens. But I could see it for niche situations. The 600 PF would have been more attractive to me had it been f/5.6. I understand why Nikon did what it did to keep the cost and weight down. However, at f/6.3, it's no faster than my 800 PF, which is still hand-holdable and fun to use for shooting small birds. Ah, tradeoffs! :)
 
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You already have a very good set up. I am envious. A 600mm f/4 lens will require some effort to move and set up, not to mention a financial commitment (even for a used copy). Consider working on perfecting your technique using your current lenses. Be more selective about deciding when to press the shutter button. I have been able to improve the photos I get with my gear using that approach.
 
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If i were in your position and primarily a bird shooter which i am too, i would really make the most of what you have, but rent or try a 600 f4 to see if you like it.
Then sell everything but the Z9 and buy a 600mm or even 500 f4 and 1.4x tele at whatever price point you can afford.
 
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Your current lenses are hand holdable.

Are you looking to use the F 600 f/4 on a tripod, in a blind, or would you also want to walk around with the lens?
The latter will work with a blackrapid strap for example, but it is a massive thing to hold and I think you would long for your 600 pf within the hour.

It would only make sense to me if you operate from a blind and don't have to handhold / carry it.
 
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I don't think bird photography is the same for all people. What kind of birds do you photograph and where do you photograph them? Wading birds are very different from songbirds or shorebirds. Birds in a dessert or on a shore are usually photographed in bright light, so aperture is not important, but in a wooded environment or around dusk or dawn, a faster aperture makes a big difference. Can you set up in one place and work an area, or do you prefer to be highly mobile? Feeder birds or birds on perches work well with a 600mm f/4 while walking long distances and making photos while birding would call for a 600mm PF.

I have a 600mm f/4 AFS G. I don't use it often, but the optics are excellent. It has some specific uses. I also have the 400mm f/4.5 and the 800mm PF. Each of them gets a lot more use than the 600mm f/4. My most common use cases are shorebirds at dawn, large mammals, and birds in a nest.

At this point the 600mm f/4 is readily available in the $3000-4000 range depending on the model you want. I don't think you are risking a lot if you find a good deal on that lens. The one thing to watch for is the AF motor. If you hear any noise when focusing, it may be a sign of focus motor failure. IF you can get parts, it's about a $750 repair, but parts will eventually be unavailable.
 
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wotan1 said:
I am debating another lens purchase and am seeking advice and recommendations.

My interest is primarily bird photography. My relevant camera bodies are Z9 and Z7ii. I also have the Z400mm f4.5 and the Z600mm PF. as well as the two Z teleconverters, 1.4 and 2x. I am happy with both of those lenses.

I have lusted after the Z 600mm f4 tc vr but that amount of money is not in my current budget.

I was considering buying a used f mount 600mm f4 E FL.

Would appreciate feedback and advice as well as any other recommendations.
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I use a Tamron 150-600 G2 version and love it. Around $ 1,400.
 
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Would not buy another 600…you’ve already got one. And would not buy an F mount lens for a Z body either. Sure, it mounts and works and is an excellent optic. However…fewer features and the inevitable advance of optical design software and coatings make the Z lenses almost universally better than their F brothers as well as lighter and smaller.
 
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wotan1 said:
I am debating another lens purchase and am seeking advice and recommendations.

My interest is primarily bird photography. My relevant camera bodies are Z9 and Z7ii. I also have the Z400mm f4.5 and the Z600mm PF. as well as the two Z teleconverters, 1.4 and 2x. I am happy with both of those lenses.

I have lusted after the Z 600mm f4 tc vr but that amount of money is not in my current budget.

I was considering buying a used f mount 600mm f4 E FL.

Would appreciate feedback and advice as well as any other recommendations.
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I am wondering whats got you considering another lens.

a) your noticing lower light and F stop is becoming an issue for other than fair weather conditions.

b) the 600 F4 TC is overpriced or out of budget, perfectly honest, i wouldn't buy one i would just rent one as needed if even ever needed.

c) i would rent a 600 F4TC for a weekend, in fair weather i think you will be surprised of the outcome until you get into lower light or notice the Bokah of F4, F4 matters as does F2.8 more so for low light and micro detail and contrast.

d) Check the MTF charts i would go for a 400 F2.8 TC over the 600 at least you have the versatility of 400 F2.8-600 F4 range and the Tcs will compliment well, also above all your have F2.8 or with a 1.4 tc a maximum of F3.92, if you go with the 600 TC you out to F5.6 again.

e) the 600 F4 E FL is a F4 especially USED is very cheap now, again i would rent one and i think that when you experience all three lenses you will see there is a smaller difference optically in fair weather more a difference in lower light, but capturing at the source at F2.8 is amazing.

F) Rent Rent Rent, try before you buy as my girlfriend said when she met me LOL

I use F2.8 glass in zooms or primes or F4 primes in the 600mm range, many of my pro sports action shooter mates use the Z9 and the 600 FL F4 E and have no intention of buying the 600 F4 Tc...........they say its excellent but the difference and what they get its not worth it for them, that's not saying the F4 TC is bad in anyway its brilliant, just over priced.

Hope it helps

Only an opinion
 
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I think Abinoone was on the right track above. What, exactly, is it your current gear is not offering that you think the new gear will? Is there a body of work you want to create that the current gear you have is incapable of producing or if capable, makes it very difficult to produce? I would say start there to determine "need."

Now, "WANT" is very frequently a stronger motivator than "need". If you WANT the 600mm F4, if you can afford the 600mm F4 without going into debt or taking food money off the table, then go for it if it will satisfy the new gear itch. Once that itch sets in, it is mighty hard to resist scratching it. Don't ask how many guitars I have vs. how many I can play at any one time....

Hope this helps.
Jeff
 
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As @EricBowles said not all bird photography is the same. I am a bird ID photographer (ebird etc.) all sizes in all terrain and habitat on the move and on foot 90% of the time. Handholding is what I do for the ease of moving around fast. For me 600mm is almost always not enough focal lenght.

I have 2 Z9's and a Z800pf takes the vast majority of my images. I have a Z180-600 as a back up and for those few times I am in need of variable focal length and shorter minimum focus distance.

I owned a 600 f/4E and it was a great lens a lot more hassle logistically because of size not just weight. Used on D850 and D6 and a couple of times adapted on Z9 before the Z800pf arrived 5-1-22. I sold the 600 f/4E for a very good price right after the Z800 arrived.
 
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Thanks for all the comments they are helpful.

I am finding myself frequently short of reach even with the 600mm and a 1.4x tc. I also have found that even though I can hand hold I find the tripod and gimbal gets better results.

Two days ago I was in a great area. There were many cruising predators including eagles, harrier falcons and owls. Plus flying swans and flocks of ducks and snow geese.. It seemed that all the action however was too far away to be able to fill the screen with flight. I am beginning to wonder whether I should add the 800mm pf to the mix. I could also have brought out the 2x tc on the 600 pf.
 
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wotan1 said:
Thanks for all the comments they are helpful.

I am finding myself frequently short of reach even with the 600mm and a 1.4x tc. I also have found that even though I can hand hold I find the tripod and gimbal gets better results.

Two days ago I was in a great area. There were many cruising predators including eagles, harrier falcons and owls. Plus flying swans and flocks of ducks and snow geese.. It seemed that all the action however was too far away to be able to fill the screen with flight. I am beginning to wonder whether I should add the 800mm pf to the mix. I could also have brought out the 2x tc on the 600 pf.
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The 800 PF is an excellent lens and takes the 1.4x TC very well. I don't have a 2x TC, so can't comment on that. Here's an example with the 800 PF and 1.4x TC on a Z9 shot wide open handheld at f/9, 1/640, ISO 3600 and PP'd in Topaz Denoise. This was pretty heavily cropped.
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You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.
 
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ARClark said:
The 800 PF is an excellent lens and takes the 1.4x TC very well. I don't have a 2x TC, so can't comment on that. Here's an example with the 800 PF and 1.4x TC on a Z9 shot wide open handheld at f/9, 1/640, ISO 3600 and PP'd in Topaz Denoise. This was pretty heavily cropped. View attachment 76106
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Beautiful Excellent outcome and perfect example of a very good lens and someone who knows how to use it.

I have heard nothing but good things about this lens, Eric Loves his.
I hear it works very well even for subjects close as well as you can fill the frame.

I would assume its vulnerability is lower light and pressuring ISO levels, making it at times a fair weather lens ?

Only an opinion
 
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ARClark said:
The 800 PF is an excellent lens and takes the 1.4x TC very well. I don't have a 2x TC, so can't comment on that. Here's an example with the 800 PF and 1.4x TC on a Z9 shot wide open handheld at f/9, 1/640, ISO 3600 and PP'd in Topaz Denoise. This was pretty heavily cropped. View attachment 76106
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You have me thinking i want one and with a Tc, may rent one rather than buy due to infrequent use in my situation, but a dame good tool, Love it.

Only an opinion
 
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O said:
Beautiful Excellent outcome and perfect example of a very good lens and someone who knows how to use it.

I have heard nothing but good things about this lens, Eric Loves his.
I hear it works very well even for subjects close as well as you can fill the frame.

I would assume its vulnerability is lower light and pressuring ISO levels, making it at times a fair weather lens ?

Only an opinion
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Thanks very much! I really enjoy the lens and use it a lot. As you point out, the maximum f/6.3 is a bit of a limitation. However, keep in mind that it's almost as fast it gets for 800mm and is priced below and/or is lighter than its f/5.6 competition. This would include the 800 f/5.6 F mount, 600mm f/4 F and Z mounts with 1.4x TCs (840mm@f/5.6), and 400mm f/2.8 F and Z mounts with 2x TCs (f/5.6). I'll also include a 500mm f/4E with 1.4x TC. It's only 700mm, but IQ is excellent and it's f/5.6.

To me, a bigger limitation is the 16' MFD. Granted, it can deliver good closeups, but it's from quite a distance. And the long MFD precludes shots of birds that come in closer. So for a single walkabout birding/nature telephoto, a zoom would be better. But for intermediate and long-range shooting, it's really excellent.
 
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