Lossless compression vs High Efficiency*

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DougGood

DougGood

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I just received my Z9! I am requesting feedback on real world experience on tradeoffs of lossless compression versus high efficiency*. And yes, I have read what little Nikon has to say about it.

Has anyone done objective comparisons on image quality differences?
What about software support? (I use Lightroom, Photoshop, and Topaz DeNoise, Sharpen Ai, and Gigapixel.)
Are there any post-processing performance caveats with using the compressed HE*?
Anything else to consider?
 
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Steve said:
I've messed with it a little but no formal testing. Seems to work fine BUT although Lightroom can open them, my understanding is that it is not yet fully supported. I'm only using normal lossless compressed RAW for now.
Click to expand...

I noted that the default was HE* but decided to change it to lossless compressed for my initial testing.
I have heard others say that HE* is not yet fully supported so decided to play it safe.
I am wondering how we will know when it is fully supported.

So far so good with lossless compressed. I have seen some great images posted on this forum! Thanks Steve!
 
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If you use FastRawViewer note that HE* and HE are not fully supported. Various features, including percentage of under/over exposed pixels will not work. I switched back to lossless and may reevaluate as more software supports the newer formats.
 
Last edited:
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Adobe's page showing cameras supported in Camera Raw shows the Z9 with a note. The note says that Nikon High Efficiency raw compressions modes are currently not supported on certain Windows and Android systems. This seems to mean that High Efficiency raw files are supported elsewhere, including on Mac OS. The note does not say preliminary or initial in this case. Does that mean full support?

I've been using high efficiency raw* for wildlife shooting and have had no troubles converting the files with ACR on my iMac and MacBook Pro, both running the latest Mac OS. I do see that the file format is not supported in certain other software: Fast Raw Viewer (although it will read the embedded jpeg for thumbnails) and Topaz AI Denoise and Sharpen. The Topaz products do work on high efficiency raw* files as a PS plug-in, presumably because ACR has already converted them. Photomechanic seems to work fine with them to import them and as a browser, although as a browser, it is possibly looking at the embedded jpeg.



Z 9 (*see note)NEFYes14.05.011.0-
Z fcNEFYes13.44.410.4-

Note:


(*) Nikon High Efficiency raw compression modes are currently not supported on:
  • Windows ARM64
  • ARMv7 and x86 for Android
 
Last edited:
Just from web browsing, apparently it is this TicoRaw product, supposed to be "Mathematically lossless / Near-lossless / visually lossless down to 1 bit per pixel (bpp)"

One question would be whether Lightroom picks up camera settings yet. It would be an easy experiment to turn it on in preferences to apply camera settings for one pic and then turn it off in preferences for another and see if the results are different. Another test would be to see if "enhance" works and see if you can still set things like the radius for sharpening, or the color temperature for white balance In other words does it do everything a raw file should do.

www.intopix.com

intoPIX TicoRAW | RAW Bayer CFA Sensor Compression (IP cores & SDK)

TicoRAW is an innovative, lossless quality, low-power, low-memory and line-based image processing and CFA compression technology created to unleash image sensor CFA raw dataflows. TicoRAW is extremely low-power and tiny in ASIC or FPGA, fast in CPU and GPU, and suitable for cameras and sensors...
www.intopix.com www.intopix.com
 
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As Steve said above (and you should listen to THAT Steve :) ) I believe LR and PS are only fully working with lossless comp. I also note that ON1 denoise tells me that my z9 Raw files are jpg so I don't know if it's converting them to jpg to work on them as it doesn't recognize the Z9 files yet or if is just being confused by the new file? (You can see my level of technical understanding in that description).
 
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BillW said:
I've been using high efficiency raw* for wildlife shooting and have had no troubles converting the files with ACR. I do see that the file format is not supported in certain other software: Fast Raw Viewer (although it will read the embedded jpeg for thumbnails) and Topaz AI Denoise and Sharpen.
Click to expand...

I too have been using high efficiency raw* and have encountered no problems with ACR and LR Classic. I see no perceptible difference in renderings by lossless compressed and high efficiency raw*. For an interesting discussion on Nikon lossy compression see Emil Martinec here. Scroll down to "An aside on "lossy" NEF compression." Emil's post refers to NEF compression with earlier Nikon cameras, but high efficiency raw* presumably uses similar methodology. The compression works by discarding superfluous bits towards toward the right of the histogram.

Emil says "The fact that level quantization much finer than the noise is superfluous, since noise erases the perceptual impact of abrupt tonal transitions, means that many of the levels used to record higher exposure zones are unneeded and indeed wasteful -- photon shot noise is much larger than the level spacing in midtones and highlights on a typical DSLR."

Rawdigger and Fast Raw Viewer do not support high efficiency raw*, but you can convert to DNG for use with Rawdiger and selected high efficiency raw* files. I don't use DNG for my routine work, so this would make sense with FRV.

Bill
 
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LR not supporting other functions like tethering, probably others. There is a workaround involving Nikon Tether and other Nikon software will possibly help convert * to something workable.
 
John Navitsky said:
yah, they offer modes that go from lossless to varying degrees of lossy. unfortunately we don’t know how he* and he map into that list
Click to expand...

They had a section on the z9 in that link I posted. Not too many details.

www.intopix.com

intoPIX TicoRAW Technology Added with High-Efficiency RAW Recording of Nikon Z 9 Flagship Mirrorless Camera - intoPIX

Nikon made the bold strategic move to select the intoPIX TicoRAW technology: leapfrogging existing camera limitations to meet all advanced and upcoming requirements of imaging professionals, ...
www.intopix.com www.intopix.com
 
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BillW said:
Adobe's page showing cameras supported in Camera Raw shows the Z9 with a note. The note says that Nikon High Efficiency raw compressions modes are currently not supported on certain Windows and Android systems. This seems to mean that High Efficiency raw files are supported elsewhere, including on Mac OS. The note does not say preliminary or initial in this case. Does that mean full support?

I've been using high efficiency raw* for wildlife shooting and have had no troubles converting the files with ACR on my iMac and MacBook Pro, both running the latest Mac OS. I do see that the file format is not supported in certain other software: Fast Raw Viewer (although it will read the embedded jpeg for thumbnails) and Topaz AI Denoise and Sharpen. The Topaz products do work on high efficiency raw* files as a PS plug-in, presumably because ACR has already converted them. Photomechanic seems to work fine with them to import them and as a browser, although as a browser, it is possibly looking at the embedded jpeg.



Z 9 (*see note)NEFYes14.05.011.0-
Z fcNEFYes13.44.410.4-

Note:


(*) Nikon High Efficiency raw compression modes are currently not supported on:
  • Windows ARM64
  • ARMv7 and x86 for Android
Click to expand...

Thank you, BillW
My PC is INTEL, and I use the Topaz products as Lightroom plugins, so I might be OK.
I want to read more on what others say on image quality in these posts before making a decision
 
John Navitsky said:
yah, those comments don't clear anything up.

in addition, i think the specific comment was about video
Click to expand...

It was about still and video. The standard for the less compressed one was listed as less than one bit per pixel of loss. To my mind that means it is lossy but just a little, like shooting in 13 bit rather than the 14 bit the regular lossless compressed raw gives. Storage is cheap so why give up even 1 bit unless it speeds up the camera. Strictly conjecture at this point, I was just interested so googled a bit.
 
Member's gallery
BillW said:
Adobe's page showing cameras supported in Camera Raw shows the Z9 with a note. The note says that Nikon High Efficiency raw compressions modes are currently not supported on certain Windows and Android systems. This seems to mean that High Efficiency raw files are supported elsewhere, including on Mac OS. The note does not say preliminary or initial in this case. Does that mean full support?

I've been using high efficiency raw* for wildlife shooting and have had no troubles converting the files with ACR on my iMac and MacBook Pro, both running the latest Mac OS. I do see that the file format is not supported in certain other software: Fast Raw Viewer (although it will read the embedded jpeg for thumbnails) and Topaz AI Denoise and Sharpen. The Topaz products do work on high efficiency raw* files as a PS plug-in, presumably because ACR has already converted them. Photomechanic seems to work fine with them to import them and as a browser, although as a browser, it is possibly looking at the embedded jpeg.



Z 9 (*see note)NEFYes14.05.011.0-
Z fcNEFYes13.44.410.4-

Note:


(*) Nikon High Efficiency raw compression modes are currently not supported on:
  • Windows ARM64
  • ARMv7 and x86 for Android
Click to expand...

Interesting - that almost seems like support is fully done for MAC but not Windows. I guess I'd say if there's no note about MACs, it's done. I'd assume anyway... As I mentioned, I did try it and it did load and the images looked fine. Maybe that's why :)
 
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I'm way ahead with LR (on Mac) by being part of the Pre-release program and I haven't seen anything about further Z9 support or updated support for HE*. My understanding is at least on the Mac, LR is processing the HE files with full support...they ain't going to make magic happen later on.

During my Z9 days I shot everything in HE* but never really compared to Lossless. On Sony I shoot Lossy Compressed, on Canon I shoot CRAW. I really have no issues (or maybe just turn a blind eye) with these Lossy RAW formats. I like full FPS, deeper buffers and more shots per card!!
 
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I’m finding the z9 files have a lot of noise. I have started using lossless compressed and comparing them in both NX studio and Lightroom (as I believe Lightroom only supports lossless compressed) and found things slightly better but I still need to do more testing to convince my self I’m really not convinced that a z9 is any kind of improvement over a d850/500 in the autofocus department or file quality and there’s no real weight saving either. It seems we have come full circle
 
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peter wolf said:
I’m finding the z9 files have a lot of noise. I have started using lossless compressed and comparing them in both NX studio and Lightroom (as I believe Lightroom only supports lossless compressed) and found things slightly better but I still need to do more testing to convince my self I’m really not convinced that a z9 is any kind of improvement over a d850/500 in the autofocus department or file quality and there’s no real weight saving either. It seems we have come full circle
Click to expand...
LR supports HE* (and I assume HE although I never tried it).
 
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bleirer said:
Just from web browsing, apparently it is this TicoRaw product, supposed to be "Mathematically lossless / Near-lossless / visually lossless down to 1 bit per pixel (bpp)"

One question would be whether Lightroom picks up camera settings yet. It would be an easy experiment to turn it on in preferences to apply camera settings for one pic and then turn it off in preferences for another and see if the results are different. Another test would be to see if "enhance" works and see if you can still set things like the radius for sharpening, or the color temperature for white balance In other words does it do everything a raw file should do.

www.intopix.com

intoPIX TicoRAW | RAW Bayer CFA Sensor Compression (IP cores & SDK)

TicoRAW is an innovative, lossless quality, low-power, low-memory and line-based image processing and CFA compression technology created to unleash image sensor CFA raw dataflows. TicoRAW is extremely low-power and tiny in ASIC or FPGA, fast in CPU and GPU, and suitable for cameras and sensors...
www.intopix.com www.intopix.com
Click to expand...
BillW said:
Adobe's page showing cameras supported in Camera Raw shows the Z9 with a note. The note says that Nikon High Efficiency raw compressions modes are currently not supported on certain Windows and Android systems. This seems to mean that High Efficiency raw files are supported elsewhere, including on Mac OS. The note does not say preliminary or initial in this case. Does that mean full support?

I've been using high efficiency raw* for wildlife shooting and have had no troubles converting the files with ACR on my iMac and MacBook Pro, both running the latest Mac OS. I do see that the file format is not supported in certain other software: Fast Raw Viewer (although it will read the embedded jpeg for thumbnails) and Topaz AI Denoise and Sharpen. The Topaz products do work on high efficiency raw* files as a PS plug-in, presumably because ACR has already converted them. Photomechanic seems to work fine with them to import them and as a browser, although as a browser, it is possibly looking at the embedded jpeg.



Z 9 (*see note)NEFYes14.05.011.0-
Z fcNEFYes13.44.410.4-

Note:


(*) Nikon High Efficiency raw compression modes are currently not supported on:
  • Windows ARM64
  • ARMv7 and x86 for Android
Click to expand...
John Navitsky said:
no, i think it’s only not done for ARM windows (ie, tablets)
Click to expand...
Steve said:
Ahh, got it.
Click to expand...
BillW said:
Adobe's page showing cameras supported in Camera Raw shows the Z9 with a note. The note says that Nikon High Efficiency raw compressions modes are currently not supported on certain Windows and Android systems. This seems to mean that High Efficiency raw files are supported elsewhere, including on Mac OS. The note does not say preliminary or initial in this case. Does that mean full support?

I've been using high efficiency raw* for wildlife shooting and have had no troubles converting the files with ACR on my iMac and MacBook Pro, both running the latest Mac OS. I do see that the file format is not supported in certain other software: Fast Raw Viewer (although it will read the embedded jpeg for thumbnails) and Topaz AI Denoise and Sharpen. The Topaz products do work on high efficiency raw* files as a PS plug-in, presumably because ACR has already converted them. Photomechanic seems to work fine with them to import them and as a browser, although as a browser, it is possibly looking at the embedded jpeg.



Z 9 (*see note)NEFYes14.05.011.0-
Z fcNEFYes13.44.410.4-

Note:


(*) Nikon High Efficiency raw compression modes are currently not supported on:
  • Windows ARM64
  • ARMv7 and x86 for Android
Click to expand...
BillW said:
Adobe's page showing cameras supported in Camera Raw shows the Z9 with a note. The note says that Nikon High Efficiency raw compressions modes are currently not supported on certain Windows and Android systems. This seems to mean that High Efficiency raw files are supported elsewhere, including on Mac OS. The note does not say preliminary or initial in this case. Does that mean full support?

I've been using high efficiency raw* for wildlife shooting and have had no troubles converting the files with ACR on my iMac and MacBook Pro, both running the latest Mac OS. I do see that the file format is not supported in certain other software: Fast Raw Viewer (although it will read the embedded jpeg for thumbnails) and Topaz AI Denoise and Sharpen. The Topaz products do work on high efficiency raw* files as a PS plug-in, presumably because ACR has already converted them. Photomechanic seems to work fine with them to import them and as a browser, although as a browser, it is possibly looking at the embedded jpeg.



Z 9 (*see note)NEFYes14.05.011.0-
Z fcNEFYes13.44.410.4-

Note:


(*) Nikon High Efficiency raw compression modes are currently not supported on:
  • Windows ARM64
  • ARMv7 and x86 for Android
Click to expand...

Bill,

This is excellent information. Walter on Nikon Cafe has posted a good update on what software can work with HE NEF.



Apparently ACR/LR are not optimized for HE*. I don't know what this means, but ACR/LR works fine with HE* on my windows machine. Perhaps this NEF HE* should be regarded as a beta release. If you are shooting in bursts, HE* enables many more files to be stored in the buffer. According to the Z9 reference manual Lossless NEF files are 55.1 MB and the buffer can hold 79 frames. This should be sufficient for most purposes. However HE* files are 33 MB and the buffer can hold 685 images.

Bill
 
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