Nikon 400 2.8S TC - 1.4 TC stack vs 2.0 TC

[thelordofthelight]

Qn to folks who own/ have used the 4002.8S TC - which one is better? Stacking an external 1.4TC with an internal TC at 784mm vs using a 2X TC at 800mm?

I prefer 1.4 TC stack with internal 1.4TC at 784mm as it allows me to use it at 784/F5.6 or 560/F4 compared to using a 2XTC and stuck at a minimum 800mm. Also i do not use beyond 800mm much.

Also, if you have used the FL version of 400 2.8, do you see a difference in the way the Z version renders (Transition of our of focus areas - foreground to subject to background), bokeh?

 

[agrumpyoldsod]

You can see my comparison shots here~: Shots taken with Nikon Nikkor Z 400mm f/2.8 TC VR S-line - some with internal TC engage and some with external TC14 or TC20 added

The differences are marginal - but my view is that the Internal TC+TC14 should lead to better outcomes. This is a result of the ITC being perfectly matched for lens and "typically" an external TC14 introduces less "issues" than a TC20. HOWEVER, 2 TC's adds more elements than using just one. So as I say it is marginal.

My view is the 600TC at 840 is sharper than the 400TC+TC20 or 400TC+ITC & TC14. I remain of the view that the differences are marginal.

A similar argument can be made when comparing the 800/6.3PF to the 400TC+TC20 and/or 400TC+ITC+TC14 when all are set to f/6.3 or more closed down -- the optical differences are tiny.

HOWEVER, the flexibility of the 400TC and 600TC, brighter base apertures, faster AF-motors, better coatings and a few more controls make the TC lenses batter products, but only if one does not mind about the cost differential. Sine I have owned and used them all - I sold the 800 when the 600 arrived - I prefer the flexibility.

For me (like some others) had the 600TC been launched at the same time as the 400TC I would not own the 400TC. But it was not so I bought the 400 + 800 and used them both until the 600 was delivered.

I will be taking the 400TC, 600TC, 100-400 and 24-120 AND 3 TC (2xTC14 and TC20) + 2 Z9 to Kenya for a month in a few weeks AND hope to decide after that whether I keep them all or slim down.

 

[thelordofthelight]

You can see my comparison shots here~: Shots taken with Nikon Nikkor Z 400mm f/2.8 TC VR S-line - some with internal TC engage and some with external TC14 or TC20 added

The differences are marginal - but my view is that the Internal TC+TC14 should lead to better outcomes. This is a result of the ITC being perfectly matched for lens and "typically" an external TC14 introduces less "issues" than a TC20. HOWEVER, 2 TC's adds more elements than using just one. So as I say it is marginal.

My view is the 600TC at 840 is sharper than the 400TC+TC20 or 400TC+ITC & TC14. I remain of the view that the differences are marginal.

A similar argument can be made when comparing the 800/6.3PF to the 400TC+TC20 and/or 400TC+ITC+TC14 when all are set to f/6.3 or more closed down -- the optical differences are tiny.

HOWEVER, the flexibility of the 400TC and 600TC, brighter base apertures, faster AF-motors, better coatings and a few more controls make the TC lenses batter products, but only if one does not mind about the cost differential. Sine I have owned and used them all - I sold the 800 when the 600 arrived - I prefer the flexibility.

For me (like some others) had the 600TC been launched at the same time as the 400TC I would not own the 400TC. But it was not so I bought the 400 + 800 and used them both until the 600 was delivered.

I will be taking the 400TC, 600TC, 100-400 and 24-120 AND 3 TC (2xTC14 and TC20) + 2 Z9 to Kenya for a month in a few weeks AND hope to decide after that whether I keep them all or slim down.

Thank you very much! I looked at the images and honestly if there was no description, it would be hard to differentiate the ones with stacked TCs vs the 2XTC. How would You rate the AF performance between the 600TC vs 400 TC when using the 600 with internal TC at 840mm vs 784mm TC stack on the 400?

400 vs 600 has always been a big debate and now with the internal TCs thrown in the mix, it is even more difficult to make a choice. I was using the 400 FL with my DSLRs and it’s the best tele lens I have ever used. I have used the 600FL as well and always felt there was something magical about Nikon’s f2.8 primes. Also i shoot mammals 50% of the time and 400mm/f2.8 is really handy for photographing mammals in the Indian forests.

 

[hrv]

I will be taking the 400TC, 600TC, 100-400 and 24-120 AND 3 TC (2xTC14 and TC20) + 2 Z9 to Kenya for a month in a few weeks AND hope to decide after that whether I keep them all or slim down.

That must be some backpack you are using as carry-on luggage

 

[thelordofthelight]

What a timing..Brad hill just updated his ‘stuff I use’ article and there are some interesting insights about Z teles including performance with stacked TCs.

when it comes to stacking an external 1.4TC with the internal TC vs Using a bare 2x TC, he got opposite results with the 400 vs 600:

quoting from Brad’s page: http://www.naturalart.ca/artist/cameragear2.html#anchor_lenses_400_2.8

400 2.8S:

PERFORMANCE WITH TELECONVERTERS: Excellent with the built-in 1.4x TC. Excellent when using the Z TC-1.4x (without the built-in TC engaged). (Note that I could find NO difference in image quality when shooting with the built-in 1.4x versus using the externally mounted Z TC-1.4x.) I also obtained very, very good performance when I shot the Z 400mm f2.8S with the Z TC-2x (the image quality is extremely close to that of the Z 800mm f6.3S). Note that I HAVE tested the optical performance of the Z 400mm f2.8S with the Z TC-2x (800mm) vs. it with its built-in 1.4x TC plus the Z TC-1.4x (i.e., a TC "stack" producing a total focal length of 784mm). The results were exceptionally consistent - at all test distances and apertures the Z 400mm f2.8S plus 2x TC were very slightly (but noticeably) sharper than the Z 400mm f2.8S plus TC "stack". Given the difference in the number of elements you are shooting with in each TC scenario (8 additional elements with the Z TC-2x and 12 additional elements with the 1.4x TC stack) this makes total sense to me.

600F4S:

PERFORMANCE WITH TELECONVERTERS: Exceptional with its built-in 1.4x TC - this lens performs incredibly well at 840mm. Very good with the Z TC-2x (1200mm), but note that getting the best results at 1200mm requires disciplined shooting technique. And here's a very interesting result - I compared shooting this lens with the Z TC-2x against shooting it with a "TC-stack" (its built-in TC plus an externally mounted Z TC-1.4x). So this comparison was at 1200mm vs. 1176mm, and I found the EXACT OPPOSITE of what I found when I did the same thing with Z 400mm f2.8S, i.e., when shooting with the TC-stack (1176mm) the images were consistently very slightly sharper than when shooting with the Z TC-2x (1200mm). I can't explain why this is so - but it was!

 

[CoyoteCreationsNW]

Background to help explain my expectations for a telephoto wildlife lens. Post processing using LR & PS on a 3840X2160 monitor. I do tend to pixel peep at 100% or greater.

My first experience was a Sigma Sport 150-600 mm on a D850. Use of teleconverters was not acceptable.

I replaced the Sigma lens with a Nikkor 500 mm PF. IQ , including sharpness, was excellent. Adding a teleconverter was OK.

Current kit is Z9 and 400 mm TC 2.8 S + TC14 and TC20 external teleconverters.

560 mm using internal TC compared to external TC. I can see no difference in fur or feather detail.

784 mm using “stacked” TC14s compared to 800 mm using TC20. I have to view at 100% or greater to see a noticeable difference. The TC20 is slightly sharper.

Sharpness is not the primary consideration when I set up lens and camera for a trip. My thinking with the Z9 depends more on what I expect to be photographing that day.

Bare lens giving 400mm/2.8 and 560mm/4.0 for deer, elk, coyotes and larger birds or when shooting very early or very late in the day.

Lens + ext. TC14 giving 560mm/4.0 and 784mm/5.6 for birds in flight, larger shore birds and more distant mammals when there is adequate light.

Lens + TC20 giving 800/5.6 for smaller perching or nesting birds or very distant wildlife. I rarely use 1120mm/8.0 even with a tripod. Sharpness is still OK but, even with a tripod, I do not get excellent IQ.

Conclusion – Using either external TC is driven by the focal length I need, the available light level and subject isolation considerations. Sharpness differences are a very minor consideration. All of the combinations exceed my D850/500 PF results, and I thought of that as an excellent kit.

 

[thelordofthelight]

Background to help explain my expectations for a telephoto wildlife lens. Post processing using LR & PS on a 3840X2160 monitor. I do tend to pixel peep at 100% or greater.

My first experience was a Sigma Sport 150-600 mm on a D850. Use of teleconverters was not acceptable.

I replaced the Sigma lens with a Nikkor 500 mm PF. IQ , including sharpness, was excellent. Adding a teleconverter was OK.

Current kit is Z9 and 400 mm TC 2.8 S + TC14 and TC20 external teleconverters.

560 mm using internal TC compared to external TC. I can see no difference in fur or feather detail.

784 mm using “stacked” TC14s compared to 800 mm using TC20. I have to view at 100% or greater to see a noticeable difference. The TC20 is slightly sharper.

Sharpness is not the primary consideration when I set up lens and camera for a trip. My thinking with the Z9 depends more on what I expect to be photographing that day.

Bare lens giving 400mm/2.8 and 560mm/4.0 for deer, elk, coyotes and larger birds or when shooting very early or very late in the day.

Lens + ext. TC14 giving 560mm/4.0 and 784mm/5.6 for birds in flight, larger shore birds and more distant mammals when there is adequate light.

Lens + TC20 giving 800/5.6 for smaller perching or nesting birds or very distant wildlife. I rarely use 1120mm/8.0 even with a tripod. Sharpness is still OK but, even with a tripod, I do not get excellent IQ.

Conclusion – Using either external TC is driven by the focal length I need, the available light level and subject isolation considerations. Sharpness differences are a very minor consideration. All of the combinations exceed my D850/500 PF results, and I thought of that as an excellent kit.

Thank you! When I'm out photographing mammals, I'd prefer a bare 4002.8 that can also be used a 560 F4. For photographing birds, I'd prefer having a 1.4TC stack that'll offer 560 F4 and 784 f5.6.

 

[Matt N]

You can see my comparison shots here~: Shots taken with Nikon Nikkor Z 400mm f/2.8 TC VR S-line - some with internal TC engage and some with external TC14 or TC20 added

The differences are marginal - but my view is that the Internal TC+TC14 should lead to better outcomes. This is a result of the ITC being perfectly matched for lens and "typically" an external TC14 introduces less "issues" than a TC20. HOWEVER, 2 TC's adds more elements than using just one. So as I say it is marginal.

My view is the 600TC at 840 is sharper than the 400TC+TC20 or 400TC+ITC & TC14. I remain of the view that the differences are marginal.

A similar argument can be made when comparing the 800/6.3PF to the 400TC+TC20 and/or 400TC+ITC+TC14 when all are set to f/6.3 or more closed down -- the optical differences are tiny.

HOWEVER, the flexibility of the 400TC and 600TC, brighter base apertures, faster AF-motors, better coatings and a few more controls make the TC lenses batter products, but only if one does not mind about the cost differential. Sine I have owned and used them all - I sold the 800 when the 600 arrived - I prefer the flexibility.

For me (like some others) had the 600TC been launched at the same time as the 400TC I would not own the 400TC. But it was not so I bought the 400 + 800 and used them both until the 600 was delivered.

I will be taking the 400TC, 600TC, 100-400 and 24-120 AND 3 TC (2xTC14 and TC20) + 2 Z9 to Kenya for a month in a few weeks AND hope to decide after that whether I keep them all or slim down.

What did you decide after your Kenya trip? Did you keep them all or slim down (and to what)?

 

[thelordofthelight]

I actually bought both the TCs and have been testing the combo a bit. I’m finding it hard to see any difference between the bare 2X at 800mm vs 1.4 stack at 784mm, even at 100%..maybe this boils down to sample variations as well but in the end it boils down to whether one wants 800mm/5.6 and 1120mm F8 combo or 560mm F4 and 800mm f5.6 combo and for me, the latter is definitely better. I have noticed anything beyond 800mm is almost pointless to photograph considering the subject distance, atmospheric haze etc..maybe that 2% cases with very cooperative subjects like sleepy owls, 1120mm could be a bit useful. Also, 1120mm f8 takes a hit on both AF and image quality quite significantly and the combo doesn’t produce good results with moving subjects.

Also, stacking 1.4TCs still keeps the balance manageable whereas adding a 2X shifts the balance and makes it a bit challenging to access the built-in TC. Will mostly end up selling my 2X.

 

[gdecamp]

I actually bought both the TCs and have been testing the combo a bit. I’m finding it hard to see any difference between the bare 2X at 800mm vs 1.4 stack at 784mm, even at 100%..maybe this boils down to sample variations as well but in the end it boils down to whether one wants 800mm/5.6 and 1120mm F8 combo or 560mm F4 and 800mm f5.6 combo and for me, the latter is definitely better. I have noticed anything beyond 800mm is almost pointless to photograph considering the subject distance, atmospheric haze etc..maybe that 2% cases with very cooperative subjects like sleepy owls, 1120mm could be a bit useful. Also, 1120mm f8 takes a hit on both AF and image quality quite significantly and the combo doesn’t produce good results with moving subjects.

Also, stacking 1.4TCs still keeps the balance manageable whereas adding a 2X shifts the balance and makes it a bit challenging to access the built-in TC. Will mostly end up selling my 2X.

I've tried the 2x on my 400TC a few times but it's easier for me to just use the internal tc plus the external 1.4tc and I don't really see much of a difference to make me carry a 2x which is much larger. If I know I will need 800 or more I use the 800pf which is a delight to use since the weight is less and at my age it's a big help!

I've been using the 800pf way more than the 400tc lately but heading to Florida next month and I know I'll use the 400tc more because the birds are closer where I'm going than they are here lately.

 

[thelordofthelight]

I've tried the 2x on my 400TC a few times but it's easier for me to just use the internal tc plus the external 1.4tc and I don't really see much of a difference to make me carry a 2x which is much larger. If I know I will need 800 or more I use the 800pf which is a delight to use since the weight is less and at my age it's a big help!

I've been using the 800pf way more than the 400tc lately but heading to Florida next month and I know I'll use the 400tc more because the birds are closer where I'm going than they are here lately.

Exactly George..I do not do enough birding to justify a dedicated birding lens. But for my use cases I see I often need both 800mm and 560 mm. It’s a dream to start tracking and photographing a bird at 800mm and then instantly switch to 560mm as the bird approaches closer, all of this without even taking the eyes off the EVF…

 

[Matt N]

Exactly George..I do not do enough birding to justify a dedicated birding lens. But for my use cases I see I often need both 800mm and 560 mm. It’s a dream to start tracking and photographing a bird at 800mm and then instantly switch to 560mm as the bird approaches closer, all of this without even taking the eyes off the EVF…

Do you find that you're always using either 560 or 800, enough to warrant having the 600 TC instead of the 400 TC & 800pf?

 

[thelordofthelight]

Do you find that you're always using either 560 or 800, enough to warrant having the 600 TC instead of the 400 TC & 800pf?

Not at all..birding is just 40-50% but I love photographing large mammals like tigers, elephants etc. for which 400mm and f2.8 are absolutely essential . So, when I travel to National parks to photograph mammals, I use the 400TC as a 400/560mm combo and when I’m out on birding I just add the external 1.4TC and use it as a 560/800mm combo.