Nikon D500, BIF-AF issue

[DenisV]

While I'm more than happy with the AF performance of my combo D500 paired with the 300mm f4 PF, there is one scenario where it most of the time fails.
Almost every time I try to activate the AF on a flying dark bird with a grey or blue sky as background, the AF seems just like not trying to get in focus.
(this doesn't happen with white birds like an egret f.i. and doesn't happen with a busy background, like vegatation f.i.)
For information, what I've already tried to resolv this problem: (without success...)
- Change to different AF modes (most of the time I use "Groupe AF" which give me the best results for BIF)
- Change the value of "Focus tracking with lock-on"
- As Steve recommended, clean the AF sensor and the focus contacts of the camera and the lens
Other things that I've noiced:
- Biger size of the target doesn't seems to help
- After the missed shot, the focus distance on the lens always shows the minimal focus distance
- If I first prefocus on infinity, the result may be better
- If by chance the subject can be locked by the AF, it usually stay locked (I don't loose it...)
- The AF distance travels very quickly from infinity to close, but very slowly from close to infinity (can also be stuck)
When I see how well this combo can catch a flying bird on a busy background and refuse to hunt for a big duck quite close to me, in the sky... Something must be wrong...

Anyway, thank's to anyone who may have any suggestion for this problem...
Best regards,
Denis

 

[Steve]

Dark animals are incredibly difficult for AF systems, and even more so if the subject is a backlit (not uncommon against the sky). The AF sensors need to see detail in order to focus and with a darker animal this is much harder to come by. I run into a similar problem with black bears in dim light - often the camera struggles to get a lock (even a D5). I'm not sure that you're really doing anything "wrong" or that there is something up with the camera, it may just be a very difficult target.

I know it's not easy with BIF, but trying to keep the AF area towards an edge is can sometimes help - as long as there's good contrast between that edge and the sky. Also, try to use the more central AF areas if you can - they are the most sensitive and in the best position for the PDAF system.

 

[FB101]

I know it's not easy with BIF, but trying to keep the AF area towards an edge is can sometimes help - as long as there's good contrast between that edge and the sky. Also, try to use the more central AF areas if you can - they are the most sensitive and in the best position for the PDAF system.

That's been my experience as well - putting the detection area on the edge of the animal to have that edge be the contrast used by the camera to focus. It doesn't lock on the "eye" as well but in a pinch it works. I also may switch to a bigger zone AF if the bird is far enough away so that the bird itself becomes the focusing target - works best with a flock in the sky and I am trying to capture the flight pattern rather than an individual bird. And when all else fails there is always the 400 F:2.8 ... not that I own one of those but I got to play with it a couple times and there is a marked improvement vs f:4 and f:5.6 lenses for initial AF acquisition I thought.

 

[Ralph]

Dark animals are incredibly difficult for AF systems, and even more so if the subject is a backlit (not uncommon against the sky). The AF sensors need to see detail in order to focus and with a darker animal this is much harder to come by. I run into a similar problem with black bears in dim light - often the camera struggles to get a lock (even a D5). I'm not sure that you're really doing anything "wrong" or that there is something up with the camera, it may just be a very difficult target.

I know it's not easy with BIF, but trying to keep the AF area towards an edge is can sometimes help - as long as there's good contrast between that edge and the sky. Also, try to use the more central AF areas if you can - they are the most sensitive and in the best position for the PDAF system.

Good to know. Thanks Denis for the inquiry. Thanks Steve.

 

[BillW]

You mention that the lens ends up focused at the minimum focus distance on missed shots and that it works better if the lens starts at infinity. Are you using the focus limiter switch to limit the lens to focusing on longer distances? If not, it might help. I believe the 300 mm PF has a focus limiter switch, although my 300 mm PF is currently in a different room that I cannot get to to confirm without waking up a sleeping puppy.

 

[DenisV]

You mention that the lens ends up focused at the minimum focus distance on missed shots and that it works better if the lens starts at infinity. Are you using the focus limiter switch to limit the lens to focusing on longer distances? If not, it might help. I believe the 300 mm PF has a focus limiter switch, although my 300 mm PF is currently in a different room that I cannot get to to confirm without waking up a sleeping puppy.

Thank's for you comment. Yes, correct... It has a focus limiter switch. I forgot to say that I tied this option as well. Unfortunaly without success.... Thank's again and all the best tou you!

 

[EricBowles]

Other things that I've noiced:
- Biger size of the target doesn't seems to help
- After the missed shot, the focus distance on the lens always shows the minimal focus distance
- If I first prefocus on infinity, the result may be better
- If by chance the subject can be locked by the AF, it usually stay locked (I don't loose it...)
- The AF distance travels very quickly from infinity to close, but very slowly from close to infinity (can also be stuck)
When I see how well this combo can catch a flying bird on a busy background and refuse to hunt for a big duck quite close to me, in the sky... Something must be wrong...

Anyway, thanks to anyone who may have any suggestion for this problem...
Best regards,
Denis

Try pre-focusing on approximately the correct distance where you will pick up the subject. When the camera is significantly out of focus in either direction, the target is just a blur rather than the high contrast target you want. When the camera does not know which way to move, it gives up or hunts - neither is good.

I would avoid focusing on infinity. Group AF uses Nearest Subject Priority. If you start out with focus on something distant, it may think that is correct. Instead, focus on something short of your subject that is near the correct distance. The camera will look for something and will pick up the nearest subject under the sensor area.

The challenge with this is tracking a fast moving subject is challenging for all of us. The camera needs a quarter of a second or more to acquire focus, so you need to be able to hold the AF sensor or group on the subject long enough to focus. It's better to start focusing early and track the subject until it gets into your shooting area instead of trying to get the camera to focus at the last instant.

Group AF is usually pretty good.

 

[DenisV]

That's been my experience as well - putting the detection area on the edge of the animal to have that edge be the contrast used by the camera to focus. It doesn't lock on the "eye" as well but in a pinch it works. I also may switch to a bigger zone AF if the bird is far enough away so that the bird itself becomes the focusing target - works best with a flock in the sky and I am trying to capture the flight pattern rather than an individual bird. And when all else fails there is always the 400 F:2.8 ... not that I own one of those but I got to play with it a couple times and there is a marked improvement vs f:4 and f:5.6 lenses for initial AF acquisition I thought.

Thank you for your comment!!! Regards,

 

[DenisV]

Dark animals are incredibly difficult for AF systems, and even more so if the subject is a backlit (not uncommon against the sky). The AF sensors need to see detail in order to focus and with a darker animal this is much harder to come by. I run into a similar problem with black bears in dim light - often the camera struggles to get a lock (even a D5). I'm not sure that you're really doing anything "wrong" or that there is something up with the camera, it may just be a very difficult target.

I know it's not easy with BIF, but trying to keep the AF area towards an edge is can sometimes help - as long as there's good contrast between that edge and the sky. Also, try to use the more central AF areas if you can - they are the most sensitive and in the best position for the PDAF system.

Thanks for your reply and comments. At least it confirms me that I'm not missing something with my settiengs.... All the best to you! Regards,

 

[DenisV]

Try pre-focusing on approximately the correct distance where you will pick up the subject. When the camera is significantly out of focus in either direction, the target is just a blur rather than the high contrast target you want. When the camera does not know which way to move, it gives up or hunts - neither is good.

I would avoid focusing on infinity. Group AF uses Nearest Subject Priority. If you start out with focus on something distant, it may think that is correct. Instead, focus on something short of your subject that is near the correct distance. The camera will look for something and will pick up the nearest subject under the sensor area.

The challenge with this is tracking a fast moving subject is challenging for all of us. The camera needs a quarter of a second or more to acquire focus, so you need to be able to hold the AF sensor or group on the subject long enough to focus. It's better to start focusing early and track the subject until it gets into your shooting area instead of trying to get the camera to focus at the last instant.

Group AF is usually pretty good.

Thanks Eric for your advice... Yes, that make sense. Depending on the situation and when the action is on, you have to remember and have the time to do it. Anyway... it may help, of course. Regards!

 

[Capturingtheunseen.com]

While I'm more than happy with the AF performance of my combo D500 paired with the 300mm f4 PF, there is one scenario where it most of the time fails.
Almost every time I try to activate the AF on a flying dark bird with a grey or blue sky as background, the AF seems just like not trying to get in focus.
(this doesn't happen with white birds like an egret f.i. and doesn't happen with a busy background, like vegatation f.i.)
For information, what I've already tried to resolv this problem: (without success...)
- Change to different AF modes (most of the time I use "Groupe AF" which give me the best results for BIF)
- Change the value of "Focus tracking with lock-on"
- As Steve recommended, clean the AF sensor and the focus contacts of the camera and the lens
Other things that I've noiced:
- Biger size of the target doesn't seems to help
- After the missed shot, the focus distance on the lens always shows the minimal focus distance
- If I first prefocus on infinity, the result may be better
- If by chance the subject can be locked by the AF, it usually stay locked (I don't loose it...)
- The AF distance travels very quickly from infinity to close, but very slowly from close to infinity (can also be stuck)
When I see how well this combo can catch a flying bird on a busy background and refuse to hunt for a big duck quite close to me, in the sky... Something must be wrong...

Anyway, thank's to anyone who may have any suggestion for this problem...
Best regards,
Denis

I just went through this. No one wants to admit it, but I believe this is an inherent defect in the D500 AF system. It acts unlike any of the other Nikon bodies I have used. The dynamic modes with the exception of group and single point are useless. So why have them?

I use single point most of the time and it will acquire and re-acquire focus like it is supposed to in the other modes. But I went through some very frustrating days before I figured that out.

BTW, if you research the Fred Miranda forums you will see plenty of people have had the same issues with this.

 

[EricBowles]

I just went through this. No one wants to admit it, but I believe this is an inherent defect in the D500 AF system. It acts unlike any of the other Nikon bodies I have used. The dynamic modes with the exception of group and single point are useless. So why have them?

I use single point most of the time and it will acquire and re-acquire focus like it is supposed to in the other modes. But I went through some very frustrating days before I figured that out.

BTW, if you research the Fred Miranda forums you will see plenty of people have had the same issues with this.

Dynamic AF was changed with the D500. They introduced Group AF (actually just made it work properly - it was first on the D810). The D500, D5, D850, and Z cameras all use the new iteration of Dynamic. It was discussed a lot when the camera was released - and it's not an error or a bug. It's a change from the D810 and earlier cameras.

 

[Capturingtheunseen.com]

Dynamic AF was changed with the D500. They introduced Group AF (actually just made it work properly - it was first on the D810). The D500, D5, D850, and Z cameras all use the new iteration of Dynamic. It was discussed a lot when the camera was released - and it's not an error or a bug. It's a change from the D810 and earlier cameras.

Strange that I never heard anything about it. So, why do they still offer the other dynamic options if they don't work? That just confuses the issue.

The other thing is, the D5 and the D500 were released at the same time. I had a D5, it did not have this same issue. If it was a new iteration, why not on both bodies?

 

[EricBowles]

Strange that I never heard anything about it. So, why do they still offer the other dynamic options if they don't work? That just confuses the issue.

The other thing is, the D5 and the D500 were released at the same time. I had a D5, it did not have this same issue. If it was a new iteration, why not on both bodies?

It's not that Dynamic does not work. It's that it requires you to return the Dynamic center point to the subject. The outer points of Dynamic 9 or Dynamic 25 are helpful when the center point temporarily leaves the target. Dynamic used to be used for anything flying or moving. That's not the case now. But it is very good at providing a precise point through partial obstructions - groups of people, sticks or branches, etc. Once locked on the target, it stays on the subject remarkably well. For larger subjects that are not obstructed, Group mode - and Wide modes with later cameras - use nearest subject priority and pretty well eliminate a miss that picks up the background

The D5 and D500 have exactly the same AF system except the D500 version is on a DX sensor. But it covers more of that sensor on the D500 and the Group AF area is larger. My experience is because the D5 version is smaller compared to the entire frame, and because it has Dynamic 9 point, you probably did not notice the difference. It was argued quite a bit early with the D500. Of course the problem is that blades of grass or small twigs near the subject can cause a miss.

The trick is to use Group whenever you are not obstructed. Group uses Nearest Subject Priority and almost never misses. My equestrian jumping work went from 75% in focus with the D810, to 95% with the D500. I paid for the camera in a weekend.

 

[Capturingtheunseen.com]

It's not that Dynamic does not work. It's that it requires you to return the Dynamic center point to the subject. The outer points of Dynamic 9 or Dynamic 25 are helpful when the center point temporarily leaves the target. Dynamic used to be used for anything flying or moving. That's not the case now. But it is very good at providing a precise point through partial obstructions - groups of people, sticks or branches, etc. Once locked on the target, it stays on the subject remarkably well. For larger subjects that are not obstructed, Group mode - and Wide modes with later cameras - use nearest subject priority and pretty well eliminate a miss that picks up the background

The D5 and D500 have exactly the same AF system except the D500 version is on a DX sensor. But it covers more of that sensor on the D500 and the Group AF area is larger. My experience is because the D5 version is smaller compared to the entire frame, and because it has Dynamic 9 point, you probably did not notice the difference. It was argued quite a bit early with the D500. Of course the problem is that blades of grass or small twigs near the subject can cause a miss.

The trick is to use Group whenever you are not obstructed. Group uses Nearest Subject Priority and almost never misses. My equestrian jumping work went from 75% in focus with the D810, to 95% with the D500. I paid for the camera in a weekend.

I understand what you're saying, but for those of use who mainly shoot BIF, it is very different and in my opinion, inferior. I don't use group much because I normally shoot larger birds such as raptors, herons, and egrets. The single point works just fine for me, and with the proper lock-on settings it holds the target for a long time. I have come to love the D500, but not because of this change. And, I will say again, the D5 did not have this issue when I used it.

 

[Replytoken]

I understand what you're saying, but for those of use who mainly shoot BIF, it is very different and in my opinion, inferior. I don't use group much because I normally shoot larger birds such as raptors, herons, and egrets. The single point works just fine for me, and with the proper lock-on settings it holds the target for a long time. I have come to love the D500, but not because of this change. And, I will say again, the D5 did not have this issue when I used it.

I hear your frustrations, and as I am about to head out tomorrow to photograph eagles, I am sympathetic, especially since I did not like the AF changes introduced with the D500. But, I did spend the better part of yesterday afternoon reading Steve's Nikon AF book, and the detailed descriptions helped me to better understand the subtle differences, so I can take action and make choices if needed. I do not believe this is necessarily a solution, but it does help me better understand the situation.

TBH, I suspect that I will have some issues with the D500 tomorrow, and that is why I am also bringing the D750 with me. It is not as fast, but it is more predictable given my past time with a D300.

--Ken

 

[DenisV]

Thanks all for your comments...
Probably one reason that make BIF photographers frustrated in this situation (me incuded) is that the D500 AF system, once activated, doesn't seems to try to focus or hunt for focusing. It's like it fails and stop to work by staying at the minimal focusing distance. At least with my D500.
Before switching from Canon to Nikon, I spent some years using bodies like the 7DmarkII and then the 5DmarkIV for BIF and I never ever had this behavour. One could notice the Canon AF system trying to re-acquire again and again... until it worked.
What a pain sometimes when you see a bird flying, you press the AF botton and nothing happen.... (someone gave the advice to pre-focuse at about the same distance where the bird is located..... Yes, but when the action is on you maybe don't have time and don't really feel like to do it...)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Canon AF is better than Nikon. It's not... But for the situation I mentioned ?!?!?!

 

[Capturingtheunseen.com]

Thanks all for your comments...
Probably one reason that make BIF photographers frustrated in this situation (me incuded) is that the D500 AF system, once activated, doesn't seems to try to focus or hunt for focusing. It's like it fails and stop to work by staying at the minimal focusing distance. At least with my D500.
Before switching from Canon to Nikon, I spent some years using bodies like the 7DmarkII and then the 5DmarkIV for BIF and I never ever had this behavour. One could notice the Canon AF system trying to re-acquire again and again... until it worked.
What a pain sometimes when you see a bird flying, you press the AF botton and nothing happen.... (someone gave the advice to pre-focuse at about the same distance where the bird is located..... Yes, but when the action is on you maybe don't have time and don't really feel like to do it...)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Canon AF is better than Nikon. It's not... But for the situation I mentioned ?!?!?!

If you use single point, continuous focus it works as it should. That makes zero sense, but it works.

 

[Steve]

Thanks all for your comments...
Probably one reason that make BIF photographers frustrated in this situation (me incuded) is that the D500 AF system, once activated, doesn't seems to try to focus or hunt for focusing. It's like it fails and stop to work by staying at the minimal focusing distance. At least with my D500.
Before switching from Canon to Nikon, I spent some years using bodies like the 7DmarkII and then the 5DmarkIV for BIF and I never ever had this behavour. One could notice the Canon AF system trying to re-acquire again and again... until it worked.
What a pain sometimes when you see a bird flying, you press the AF botton and nothing happen.... (someone gave the advice to pre-focuse at about the same distance where the bird is located..... Yes, but when the action is on you maybe don't have time and don't really feel like to do it...)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Canon AF is better than Nikon. It's not... But for the situation I mentioned ?!?!?!

One reason it helps to pre-focus a bit - and the camera just sort of stops - is because the PDAF sensors can't distinguish the phase differential for the target and the camera dines't know which way to turn the lens. When you prefocus a bit, you bring that detail into better "resolution" for the PDAF system.

 

[Replytoken]

Thanks all for your comments...
Probably one reason that make BIF photographers frustrated in this situation (me incuded) is that the D500 AF system, once activated, doesn't seems to try to focus or hunt for focusing. It's like it fails and stop to work by staying at the minimal focusing distance. At least with my D500.
Before switching from Canon to Nikon, I spent some years using bodies like the 7DmarkII and then the 5DmarkIV for BIF and I never ever had this behavour. One could notice the Canon AF system trying to re-acquire again and again... until it worked.
What a pain sometimes when you see a bird flying, you press the AF botton and nothing happen.... (someone gave the advice to pre-focuse at about the same distance where the bird is located..... Yes, but when the action is on you maybe don't have time and don't really feel like to do it...)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Canon AF is better than Nikon. It's not... But for the situation I mentioned ?!?!?!

Well, the sun came out and I did go out to photograph BIF, and your post did somewhat describe my experiences with the D500 and the 200-500. The day was somewhat of a bust as the eagles I wanted to photograph were quite far off and not feeding from the river since it was swollen and there were no fish on the rocky shores. So, there were lots of photographers with lots of gear standing there looking at eagles about 200 yards away. Still, everybody got behind the lenses when an eagle took off, even though they were a tiny spot in the viewfinders.

Curious to see what detail could show in an image with a subject that far away, I fired off a few shots. First, Steve is correct that a small target against a blank sky is quite challenging for most any focusing system. But, I have to say that I believe that other camera bodies were more willing than the D500 to rack back and forth to see if they could acquire the subject. The D500 did not seem to rack out and back based on what I could see in the VF, and it if did, it was only once. I had it set to Group AF-C. I suspect that the lens was also somewhat responsible for this, as the 200-500 is slow to acquire focus, and this was somewhat evident. I am guess that its maximum aperture may have something to do with this, but it is still frustrating. I am reserving any final judgements on either the lens or the body until I have better shooting conditions. The good news, though, is that though the eagles were quite small, they had more detail than I would have imagined. But, I have to say that I still find the D500 AF system to be somewhat hair trigger and jumpy. It looks like the honeymoon period continues.

--Ken

 

[MikeA]

I use a D500 with a 300 mm PF. Set to Cont. AF back button and single spot, I did not notice any such difficulties. Here is an example - just a casual shot and the crow not very near - from yesterday from a walk around the neighborhood. I just love this combo. I also just ordered a TC 14. Can‘t wait.

Best,

Mike

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

 

[Roaring 40s]

While I'm more than happy with the AF performance of my combo D500 paired with the 300mm f4 PF, there is one scenario where it most of the time fails.
Almost every time I try to activate the AF on a flying dark bird with a grey or blue sky as background, the AF seems just like not trying to get in focus.
(this doesn't happen with white birds like an egret f.i. and doesn't happen with a busy background, like vegatation f.i.)
For information, what I've already tried to resolv this problem: (without success...)
- Change to different AF modes (most of the time I use "Groupe AF" which give me the best results for BIF)
- Change the value of "Focus tracking with lock-on"
- As Steve recommended, clean the AF sensor and the focus contacts of the camera and the lens
Other things that I've noiced:
- Biger size of the target doesn't seems to help
- After the missed shot, the focus distance on the lens always shows the minimal focus distance
- If I first prefocus on infinity, the result may be better
- If by chance the subject can be locked by the AF, it usually stay locked (I don't loose it...)
- The AF distance travels very quickly from infinity to close, but very slowly from close to infinity (can also be stuck)
When I see how well this combo can catch a flying bird on a busy background and refuse to hunt for a big duck quite close to me, in the sky... Something must be wrong...

Anyway, thank's to anyone who may have any suggestion for this problem...
Best regards,
Denis

How much exposure compensation are you adding?

 

[DenisV]

It all depends on the situation (most of the time, I'm in Manual with auto ISO. So it depends on how clear is the sky and how dark is the subject. It can be +1, but I would say almost never more that +2) I must also admit that now a days I tend to avoid this kind of pictures (of birds with clear sky behind). I prefer to get birds at eyes level with of course a faraway background to isolate the subject. In this scenario my D500 with the 300mm PF works really great. Better than anything I've tried before... Sometimes I wish I'd have the 500mm PF, for the reach. Unfortunatly Santa Claus didn't get my letter... Thanks for writing... Regards

 

[Roaring 40s]

Yes, it's the BIF equivalent of a bird on a stick.