Nikon d500 versus d7500 .. with 5.6 lens

[PhotoLover]

I have a nikon d7500 and I'm pretty happy with it. But I'm considering a modest upgrade; getting a used D500 and selling the D7500.

A key thing I'd like from the D500 is the better autofocus, as I do a lot of BIF and such. And the D500 definitely has a better autofocus, per reviews, including Steve's review of the d7500, which compared it to a d500 and d7200.

But there is one wrinkle I want to understand better. Nikon's documentation notes that it doesn't uses all the cross sensors *except* when using lens with having aperture of 4.0 or larger. I don't have any 4.0 wildlife lenses. My main birding gear is the (excellent) 500pf and a Tamron 100-400, which is 6.3 out at 400. I especially wanted to be able to use the D500 cross sensors on the edges; with the D7500 unless the light is good and the contrast really good you pretty much have to use the center sensors to track BIF.

Does anybody have a feel for how better the D500 autofocus is over the D7500 when using a 5.6 lens, versus a 4.0 lens? If the better autofocus is partially neutralized without a 4.0 lens, then the upgrade becomes less compelling to me (there are a couple of other things I'd get from the D500, but improved autofocus is a big one).

 

[StefanSC]

Well... the D7500 has a similar AF module as the D7200, just a better exposure measuring system and some newer algorithms... and the D500 is sensibly better than D7200 when it comes to shooting f5.6, f6.3 and f8 lenses with off-center sensors so I'd expect a significant upgrade over the D7500 as well..

 

[John Navitsky]

the d500 uses the same af module as the d5, so you can look at this and get a feel for how aperture is going to interact with the cross type sensor availability. i think the tl;dr is you'll still get cross type, but only in the center. no idea how this compares to the d7500.

D5 TIPS - Focus Points

nps.nikonimaging.com

iirc, the d500 uses both the same chipset, same af module as the d5, so it's pretty darn good. differences to the d5 is the d5 iirc has a dedicated cpu for af so it does calculate faster and the d5 mirror box is better so it has less mirror up time giving the af sensors more of a look at the scene

 

[PhotoLover]

the d500 uses the same af module as the d5, so you can look at this and get a feel for how aperture is going to interact with the cross type sensor availability. i think the tl;dr is you'll still get cross type, but only in the center. no idea how this compares to the d7500.

D5 TIPS - Focus Points

nps.nikonimaging.com

iirc, the d500 uses both the same chipset, same af module as the d5, so it's pretty darn good. differences to the d5 is the d5 iirc has a dedicated cpu for af so it does calculate faster and the d5 mirror box is better so it has less mirror up time giving the af sensors more of a look at the scene

Right, and the D500 manual has the same chart. My forlorn hope was that someone had either:

1) Used something like the 500 pf with both D7500 and D500 and had a feel for how much better the D500 was with that combo, or
2) Used maybe a 600 F4 and a 500 pf on the D500 and had opinions on how the autofocus worked with the 5.6 lens versus the 4.0 lens

When Steve was comparing the D500 with the D7500 at least some of his comparison used the 300 pf, which is a 4.0 lens.

The chart doesn't give me a feel for what happens in the real world with a 5.6 lens.

 

[DRwyoming]

2) Used maybe a 600 F4 and a 500 pf on the D500 and had opinions on how the autofocus worked with the 5.6 lens versus the 4.0 lens

I've definitely done that, used my D500 with both the 500mm PF and two different versions of the 600mm f/4 (G and E-FL versions). No doubt the f/4 lenses capture more light and enable use of all of the D500's line and cross point sensors but in terms of AF performance using those sensors still available at f/5.6 both lenses perform very well from an AF perspective. If there's a difference in AF speed or initial AF acquisition in decent light it's hard to notice. Sure the f/4 super telephoto lenses are very hard to beat for sharpness, contrast, subject isolation and light gathering especially when light levels drop but the 500mm PF is a very strong performer and pairs up really well with the D500.

FWIW, I've sold all my DSLRs except the D500 with the jump to mirrorless and the D500 with either the 300mm PF or 500mm PF is still my go-to light weight wildlife kit depending on whether I'm looking for larger or smaller wildlife. For fast moving wildlife including birds in flight Group AF in the D500 works really well and the 500mm PF is a great pairing for that camera.

 

[PhotoLover]

I've definitely done that, used my D500 with both the 500mm PF and two different versions of the 600mm f/4 (G and E-FL versions). No doubt the f/4 lenses capture more light and enable use of all of the D500's line and cross point sensors but in terms of AF performance using those sensors still available at f/5.6 both lenses perform very well from an AF perspective. If there's a difference in AF speed or initial AF acquisition in decent light it's hard to notice. Sure the f/4 super telephoto lenses are very hard to beat for sharpness, contrast, subject isolation and light gathering especially when light levels drop but the 500mm PF is a very strong performer and pairs up really well with the D500.

FWIW, I've sold all my DSLRs except the D500 with the jump to mirrorless and the D500 with either the 300mm PF or 500mm PF is still my go-to light weight wildlife kit depending on whether I'm looking for larger or smaller wildlife. For fast moving wildlife including birds in flight Group AF in the D500 works really well and the 500mm PF is a great pairing for that camera.

That's good to hear, though the 500 pf works well on the D7500 now. Still, if you don't find any significant different in AF between the f/4 lenses and the 500 pf I'd probably be happy as well with a d500. I was hoping to be able to use points outside the middle with the 500; that's pretty iffy on the 7500 if light is not pretty darn good.

Interestingly, my plan is to go mirrorless (maybe the Z8) and either keep the D7500 or a D500 as a backup/second camera, ie. what you have done.

 

[headhertz]

I'm a fairly new to serious photography but do mostly concentrate on birds/wildlife and did upgrade from a D7100 to D500 for use with a 200-500 f/5.6 lens. I do feel that the AF performance of the D500 is better but usually hold to the middle 3-colums of AF points having read the documentation on which AF points I can expect to work well.

What I REALLY appreciate about the D500 over the D7100 is the ability to override AF-mode selection with any of several buttons. I have the shutter-button assigned to single-point AF continuous with the AF-On button assigned to group-AF and find it very helpful to be able to easily switch AF mode if I'm having trouble getting a lock, tracking a bird, or if my stationary target has turned into a moving one. This is slightly different than Steve's settings but I like it. One alternative would be single-point on the joystick and group-AF on the AF-On button but I find that: 1. I have trouble reliably getting a center click from the joystick while under pressure, and 2. I find moving my thumb from one back-button to the other more taxing under pressure than simply pressing or releasing the AF-On button.

 

[PhotoLover]

I'm a fairly new to serious photography but do mostly concentrate on birds/wildlife and did upgrade from a D7100 to D500 for use with a 200-500 f/5.6 lens. I do feel that the AF performance of the D500 is better but usually hold to the middle 3-colums of AF points having read the documentation on which AF points I can expect to work well.

What I REALLY appreciate about the D500 over the D7100 is the ability to override AF-mode selection with any of several buttons. I have the shutter-button assigned to single-point AF continuous with the AF-On button assigned to group-AF and find it very helpful to be able to easily switch AF mode if I'm having trouble getting a lock, tracking a bird, or if my stationary target has turned into a moving one. This is slightly different than Steve's settings but I like it. One alternative would be single-point on the joystick and group-AF on the AF-On button but I find that: 1. I have trouble reliably getting a center click from the joystick while under pressure, and 2. I find moving my thumb from one back-button to the other more taxing under pressure than simply pressing or releasing the AF-On button.

Yes, if I wind up with a D500 I will also setup a button for switch between single-point and group.

Though overall, looking at the control options for the D500 and D7500, the 500 is not really better, and I would miss the U1 and U2 settings. The fact that extended bank settings are not "sticky" strikes me as really annoying. For example, if light is low I will do things like shoot at shutter speed X, then (stationary subject of course) drop shutter speed to get lower ISO, shoot, drop shutter speed again ... which if I was using banks for settings would change those settings. I'm sure some like it, but it's not at all the way I'd like it to work. Anyway, I tweak shutter speed often, even with birds in flight, as light drops.

 

[Craig Yuill]

I have been using a D500 for almost a year and a half. It is definitely the best digital still-photography camera I have ever used. I mostly use it with the Sigma 100-400mm lens. I have found that when the AF area is set to Single ssnsor all AF sensors seem to work when the lens is wide open at 300mm (f/6). But the outer sensors focus indecisively when the lens is wide open at 400mm (f/6.3). That said, if I set the AF area to Group the outer sensors now seem to focus normally (quickly).

FWIW, I got a chance to use the D7500 with the Sigma 100-400mm lens for a two-hour session a few years ago. That’s a good camera too. I think that the D500 operates a bit more quickly than the D7500. But the D7500 is no slouch in terms of operational speed. Only you can decide whether the cost of upgrading is worth it. But you seem to be having doubts. Perhaps it might be better to hold off on purchasing the D500 and instead put the funds towards a future Z-mount camera, or another lens.

 

[Fishboy1952]

I started back into photography with a D7500 kit, and upgraded initially to the 200-500 f5.6 Nikon, and then to the 500 PF. After that combination I upgraded the body to the D500. While I got great images with the D7500, the D500 was definitely a step up. My perception is the AF on the D500 was quicker and tended to stay on the target, especially for BIF. I found the D500 to be more capable in part due to the higher frame rate available, as well as the customization available for swapping AF modes. For example the setup I used in going from a perched bird to one in flight involved releasing one button. This swapped the camera from single point AF to group AF. This was much easier than swapping modes on the D7500. This resulted in the shooting experience being more enjoyable. I think the customization available on the D500 is a major reason for upgrade and shouldn’t be minimize.

I actually still have both, and I can say after I moved to the D500, that the D7500 started gathering dust. So yes the D7500 is a great camera but the D500 is definitely a step up and will increase your keeper rate. If you decide to stay with DSLRs, then that is a viable option. Should you go to a Z body, that is something else entirely, especially a Z8/Z9. YMMV.

 

[PhotoLover]

I started back into photography with a D7500 kit, and upgraded initially to the 200-500 f5.6 Nikon, and then to the 500 PF. After that combination I upgraded the body to the D500. While I got great images with the D7500, the D500 was definitely a step up. My perception is the AF on the D500 was quicker and tended to stay on the target, especially for BIF. I found the D500 to be more capable in part due to the higher frame rate available, as well as the customization available for swapping AF modes. For example the setup I used in going from a perched bird to one in flight involved releasing one button. This swapped the camera from single point AF to group AF. This was much easier than swapping modes on the D7500. This resulted in the shooting experience being more enjoyable. I think the customization available on the D500 is a major reason for upgrade and shouldn’t be minimize.

I actually still have both, and I can say after I moved to the D500, that the D7500 started gathering dust. So yes the D7500 is a great camera but the D500 is definitely a step up and will increase your keeper rate. If you decide to stay with DSLRs, then that is a viable option. Should you go to a Z body, that is something else entirely, especially a Z8/Z9. YMMV.

Thanks Craig and Fishboy1952 for the hands on comparisons between the 7500 and the 500. The D7500 has served me well, with a very good keeper rate on BIF, but I would like a bit of an upgrade on autofocus, controls and ruggedness.

I am leaning more towards upgrading now, partly because of this feedback, but when looking at used D500 bodies, it is also interesting how good the prices are now on some F mount used lens.

My grand plan is actually:

1) Upgrade from D7500 to D500. I could see picking up a couple more used lenses for the D500
2) Get a high-end Nikon mirrorless in a year or so (my 500 pf and 1.4 teleconverter apparently work well with the Z8/9 and adapter)
3) keep the D500 as a backup and possible 2 camera use (long lens on one camera, shorter on another)

 

[EricBowles]

Without question, the D500 is a better performing camera for action. It has a second processor for focus and focus is noticeably faster and more accurate. The D7500 is a good all purpose camera and has some updates for video, but for action and stills, the D500 is a better choice.

Here is the layout of AF points for the D500 at f/5.6.

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Here is the layout of AF points at f/8 wide open. I think this was near the same at f/6.3. There is just one cross sensor at f/8 - so with the 500mm PF and a 1.4 TC you probably need to use that one point for action.

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The 600mm f/4 and 500mm f/5.6 are very different lenses for different purposes. The 600mm f/4 requires a tripod and a good gimbal head - you can't cut any corners on a lens that bug. You can use the 500mm f/5.6 PF handheld or with any kind of support. Even the smaller 500mm f/4 lens is big enough to require a tripod and gimbal most of the time but it can use the Sidekick instead of a full gimbal. A 600mm f/4 or 500mm f/5.6 lens can both use a 1.4 TC and still perform reasonably well. A lens that is f/6.3 at the long end can't use a TC on a DSLR (at least not reliably).

Don't underestimate the importance of being able to use a lens that is f/4 wide open. The focus performance is a big difference. The faster aperture and lens design of the 600 f/4 provide much cleaner backgrounds and nice bokeh. A variable aperture lens can be a bit harder to use because not only is it f/6.3 at the long end, but the AF points that work will be changing as you zoom. It's hard to keep up with so you need to be thinking about that center AF point all the time.

Looking ahead to a move to mirrorless, the 500mm PF or 600mm f/4 would remain in your kit. Both work well with the 1.4 TC and on mirrorless work well with the FTZ.

 

[headhertz]

PhotoLover, I have recently been reading Steve's Secrets to the Nikon Autofocus System DSLR Edition and he covers some aspects of the difference between the D7200 and D500 AF systems I have not seen covered elsewhere. The D500 is discussed extensively throughout the book.

 

[Calson]

I had the D7200 and the D500. What changed with the D500 was Nikon's use of a dedicated processor for autofocus and this greatly improved AF with this camera and the others, the D850 and the D5. I can fix some things in post but not an out of focus image or a missed shot waiting for the camera and lens to lock focus.

 

[headhertz]

Here is the layout of AF points for the D500 at f/5.6.
View attachment 67028

EricBowles, I think maybe you clipped the wrong part of the documentation or perhaps meant to suggest those where the AF points with a teleconverter of some variety? I believe that this is the AF point map that applies to an AF-S f/5.6 lens without teleconverter on a D500.

I found this documentation at https://nps.nikonimaging.com/technical_info/technical_solutions/d500_tips/af/focus_points/

 

[John Navitsky]

i think the teleconverter part doesn’t matter. i think it’s basically showing the points based on maximum available aperture

 

[PhotoLover]

PhotoLover, I have recently been reading Steve's Secrets to the Nikon Autofocus System DSLR Edition and he covers some aspects of the difference between the D7200 and D500 AF systems I have not seen covered elsewhere. The D500 is discussed extensively throughout the book.

Good comment, I went back and re-read that section of the ebook. This is what he says about the D500 focus sensors:

In many cases - in fact, ALL cases as of this writing - not every AF point can achieve reliable focus at F/8. For example, the D800 / D800E / D7200 only have a single cross type sensor capable of the feat - and that’s the center one. The newer / higher end cameras feature a few more F/8 sensors, the D810 and D750 sport a total of eleven cross-type F/8 sensors. The D6xx has seven sensors that fall just a tiny bit short of F/8 and the center one rated for F/8*. Finally, the D5/D500/D850 rounds it out with fifteen (out of 153). Unsurprisingly, these F/8 AF sensors are centrally located in your viewfinder. The D5xxx and D3xxx series do not have any F/8 capable sensors at the time of this writing.

When Steve compared the D7500 to the D500, he found the D7500 autofocus almost as capable on BIF, except when the birds got very small and faster. Part of the reason for my original question is that he seemed to be doing a lot of the comparisons with a f/4 lens, which maximizes the use of cross-sensors on the D500.

The D7500 also has the same exposure metering system as the D500 (an upgrade over the D7200).

To be clear, I *usually* have no trouble with BIFs with the D7500 -- though it can always be better -- and in strong light I've even had reasonable hit rates with the 500 pf + 1.4 teleconverter on larger birds .... the D7500 doesn't suck at BIF.

 

[PhotoLover]

......

The 600mm f/4 and 500mm f/5.6 are very different lenses for different purposes. The 600mm f/4 requires a tripod and a good gimbal head - you can't cut any corners on a lens that bug. You can use the 500mm f/5.6 PF handheld or with any kind of support. Even the smaller 500mm f/4 lens is big enough to require a tripod and gimbal most of the time but it can use the Sidekick instead of a full gimbal. A 600mm f/4 or 500mm f/5.6 lens can both use a 1.4 TC and still perform reasonably well. A lens that is f/6.3 at the long end can't use a TC on a DSLR (at least not reliably).

Don't underestimate the importance of being able to use a lens that is f/4 wide open. The focus performance is a big difference. The faster aperture and lens design of the 600 f/4 provide much cleaner backgrounds and nice bokeh. A variable aperture lens can be a bit harder to use because not only is it f/6.3 at the long end, but the AF points that work will be changing as you zoom. It's hard to keep up with so you need to be thinking about that center AF point all the time.

Looking ahead to a move to mirrorless, the 500mm PF or 600mm f/4 would remain in your kit. Both work well with the 1.4 TC and on mirrorless work well with the FTZ.

Many times when I press the shutter button, I wish I had a 600 f/4 lens! It's on my wish list. There are two reasons I don't now:

1) When I'm out wildlife shooting, I'm walking a lot. I love the light weight of the 500 pf, even with the tele-converter. You can carry it around and shoot all day (and I do).*
2) I didn't want to spend $10,000+. (That said, I'm pondering how much used F mount 600s might cost ...)

My 100-400 Tamron is actually a decent little general purpose wildlife lens for the money. It's main drawbacks are A) You have to stop down to F/8 to get really sharp, and B) at high shutter speeds the VR reduces sharpness; you have to switch VR on/off. The 500 pf ... just leave VR on sport mode, all is good. Also, the 100-400 can focus as close as 5 feet, so it doubles nicely as a pseudo-macro lens. It's autofocus on the D7500 is what I would call surprisingly good, albeit not in the same class as the 500 pf.

One note about the 600 f/4 class lenses ... I was on a birding trip last fall and was chatting with a gent using a 600 on a tripod. His 500 pf was in for repairs. He'd mostly swtiched to the 500 because it was so much less trouble to deal with. He loved shooting with the 600 -- but not lugging it around! But yeah ... f/4 for the bokeh and better low light performance would be grand. And more reach. I will say that most reviews I've read of the 500 pf imply its autofocus is about the same speed as the 600 f/4 lenses. At least that is my recollection.

* I will sometimes wade into the surf to get shots of pelicans and such .. lightweight rig is good.

 

[PhotoLover]

I had the D7200 and the D500. What changed with the D500 was Nikon's use of a dedicated processor for autofocus and this greatly improved AF with this camera and the others, the D850 and the D5. I can fix some things in post but not an out of focus image or a missed shot waiting for the camera and lens to lock focus.

I hear you, but I will assert that in any reasonable light the D7500 + 500 pf will net you a very high percentage of keepers with BIF. Group AF works well on that camera, and I will sometimes use D9 or D21 as well for BIF.

It's my understanding that the D7500 is a clear step up in BIF capability versus the D7200 because of the better exposure metering system and the 8 fps.

Both Craig and Fishboy above did feel from their experience that the D500 was another step up on the D7500.