TC 17 for Nikon 120-300/2.8?

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MMoretti

Michael
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I’ve recently acquired Nikon‘s 120-300/2.8 and am planning to use my TC14iii primarily for extending its reach. I also have a TC20iii, but have read that this one brings a slight degradation of IQ compared to the TC14, which is excellent. I’m looking at the TC17ii to eke out a bit more reach, with a slight savings in stops. Please let me know your thoughts and experiences with respect to how it compares to its siblings with this category of glass.

I’m mainly shooting with this lens on a D850 and will use a TC when shooting wildlife (including the occasional smaller bird), cityscapes, sports (when I can afford a ticket, after this expense!), and my family and English Shepherd. I shoot mainly handheld, though have a CF travel tripod (ball, gimbal and tilting heads), and a hefty monopod.

Thank you for any and all guidance!
 
I used a TC17 successfully with my old 300 AF-S f4 for years and the results were impressive. It never was satisfactory on my 500 f4 however. I doubt you will be happy with the combo you are proposing. However, if you switch to ML, that might change as I’ve unbelievable results with 500PF and TC20EIII. Someone posted here about the better results they were getting so I decided to take a chance and found a good deal on the TC 20. I’m amazed at the sharpness of this combo. Zooms and TC‘s traditionally don’t mix well ML has changed that. I don’t know why but it certainly seems to work. Here are a couple of of examples. One is full frame the other is shot in crop mode.
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@DougC Very nice shots, Doug. I haven’t actually tried the TC20 yet. I’m traveling in Canada currently and neglected to bring it along. I’ll try it out when I get home next week, including on my Z 7. Cheers!
 
The TC17 II is fickle, at least my copy showed this. More than decent sharpness with the 400 f2.8E FL, but I used TC14 III much more and this was excellent. The combo was surprisingly good with the 300 f4E PF. However, I found this TC17 was terrible on my 70-200 f2.8E FL. Yet the latter zoom pairs very well with both my copies of the TC14 III.

I found my copy of the TC2 III was surprisingly good with the 400 f2.8E FL and more than acceptable with the 300 f2.8G VRII, but mediocre on the 70-200 f2.8E.....

The quality of my TC2 III is very good on the 800 f5.6E FL (testing on a Z9). One can confidently state the F-mount TCs perform better on the Z cameras, but the image quality still drops off with subject distances, and cropping is to be avoided.

I recall Brad Hill reported on the 120-300 f2.8E SR with the TC's and this is one of the few if only F Mount lenses he still uses.


 
Like fcotterill, I found the 1.7x TC II to work pretty well on my 300 mm PF f4 on a D500 and D850. Not as good as the 1.4x TCIII, but worth using.

I did not particularly like the 1.7x TCII with my 500 mm PF f5.6 on a D500 or D850. You lose 1 1/2 stops of aperture and are left at f9.5. This is smaller than f8, Nikon's stated minimum aperture for AF on a D500 or D850. In bright light, I could get AF. No so much in dim light. And even at f8, you only get a handfull of AF points near the center of the viewfinder.

You would, of course, not have the smaller-than-f8-aperture problem, using it on a 120-300 mm f2.8 lens. The 1.7x TCII would leave you at f4.8, I think.

F mount TCs became more useful to me when I started using Z bodies. First a Z7 and currently a Z9, Z8 and Z7II. All the focus points work, even at f11 (and I've read also at f22, but have not tried that). Little or no need to focus tune the combination (sometimes needed on a DSLR, even if the bare lens did not need it).

With a Z body, I have used and liked the 500 mm PF with the 1.4x TCIII, the 1.7x TCII and even the 2x TCIII (although that combination with the 2x TCIII needs a Z9/Z8 to AF fast enough for BIF). So at least on that lens, the optical quality of the 1.7x TCIII is decent. Of course, the 1.4x TCIII was better and the 2x TCIII a bit worse.

Good luck with your choice. The 120-300 mm lens sounds like an exceptional lens, so perhaps it might work well with the 1.7x TCII.
 
I have used all three telecconverters and the III generation were substantially sharper than the II ones. The TC-20 III was sharper than the TC-14 II and led to my quickly upgrading it to the TC-14 III. The TC-17 is not a sharp teleconverter and with digital cameras it is not worth having. With film where the maximum ISO was 160, the half stop gain over the TC-20 was of some value. With ISO 6400 digital cameras this is not the case and no reason to use it.
 
I‘ve since acquired a Z8 and now use the 120-300 primarily on that body with fantastic results (as far as I know…), even with the 14 and 20 TCIII’s for BIF which I’m very new at. Never ended up going for a 17. Maybe one day, just to see how it plays.
 
I do wonder how much variation there is in various teleconverters, either quality of the TC or being able to work with various lenses (the reason why some match-ups work better than others). I originally bought the TC-20 III and the TC-17 to try with my 300mm f/2.8 and ended up liking the TC-17 more and stuck with it. I have used it for many trips and photographs. I would add it when there was enough light and take it off when light was low.
Many examples in my Flickr album of 300mm f/2.8 photos:
 
I used the TC-17 teleconverter with film cameras where I was limited to ISO 160 film and the extra 1/2 f-stop was important. With digital cameras now capable of ISO 6400 there is no real gain with the TC-17 and it is by far the softest teleconverter one can use. The TC-20 III and TC-14 III are much sharper and the difference is immediately apparent even with a 12MP camera like the D3. If you want more image magnification then you would be better served with a TC-20 III teleconverter.
 
I do wonder how much variation there is in various teleconverters, either quality of the TC or being able to work with various lenses (the reason why some match-ups work better than others). I originally bought the TC-20 III and the TC-17 to try with my 300mm f/2.8 and ended up liking the TC-17 more and stuck with it. I have used it for many trips and photographs. I would add it when there was enough light and take it off when light was low.
Many examples in my Flickr album of 300mm f/2.8 photos:
Both will have their own tolerances so very possible to get a range of outcomes when particular lens and TC put together.
 
I do wonder how much variation there is in various teleconverters, either quality of the TC or being able to work with various lenses (the reason why some match-ups work better than others).

I can speak to sample variation. Back in my EF days I was looking for the longest lens I could comfortably handhold ‘all day’ for wildlife. The 500/4IS was a bit too much, so I settled on a 300/2.8IS. So, I stocked up on TC’s. I would shoot with a 1.4x, 2x, and on rare occasion, both.

When I bought the TCs, I tested a whole bunch of them. I had two each of each TC from Sigma, Kenko, and Canon in both 1.4x and 2x. I found a very large variance between many of them. One of my Kenko 1.4’s showed absolutely no degradation, while the other was slightly decentered. One of my Canon 2x’s was marginally better than the other. Both of my Canon 1.4’s were just OK, but one was also decentered. And one of my Sigma 2x’s looked like someone put scotch tape over one of the elements.

I ended up with a Kenko 1.4x and a Canon 2x. (I particularly liked the Kenko 1.4x because its front element didn’t protrude, so it was great for macro, too.)

If I had bought the “worst case” TCs in my experiment, I would have been very unhappy with the 300/2.8 with a 2x. With the best-case TCs that I ended up keeping, I could shoot with stacked TCs on a 40D/7D and get a fair bit more resolution than I got from upscaling. The AF on the other hand….
 
My TC17II worked fine on my 500/4E but it was not something I used often. That said, stopping down 1/3 to 1/2 stop or so definitely helped sharpness and contrast. When I compared the 1.7 vs 1.4 + some enlargement [to equalize size] I thought the slightly enlarged 1.4 image was slightly better than the 1.7 version.
 
When I owned the 400mm F2.8FL, I used all the 3 TCs (III versions of 1.4 and 2.0). TC1.4III was the best. It was almost as good as the bare lens both In terms of sharpness and AF speed. TC2.0III was good from a sharpness standpoint but there were caveats like subject distance, proper stabilization etc. TC1.7was just in between the 1.4 and 2.0 TC both in terms of AF speed and sharpness and hence used to be my frequently used TC when I was photographing birds. The only caveat with the 1.7 TC was there was a slight drop in contrast (not sharpness) vs gen III TCs. If you are using this on a Z body, it should work very well but on the DSLRs, the biggest drawback I had was having to carefully perform AFFT to get the best results..with a zoom lens, this gets complex.
 
I can speak to sample variation. Back in my EF days I was looking for the longest lens I could comfortably handhold ‘all day’ for wildlife. The 500/4IS was a bit too much, so I settled on a 300/2.8IS. So, I stocked up on TC’s. I would shoot with a 1.4x, 2x, and on rare occasion, both.

When I bought the TCs, I tested a whole bunch of them. I had two each of each TC from Sigma, Kenko, and Canon in both 1.4x and 2x. I found a very large variance between many of them. One of my Kenko 1.4’s showed absolutely no degradation, while the other was slightly decentered. One of my Canon 2x’s was marginally better than the other. Both of my Canon 1.4’s were just OK, but one was also decentered. And one of my Sigma 2x’s looked like someone put scotch tape over one of the elements.

I ended up with a Kenko 1.4x and a Canon 2x. (I particularly liked the Kenko 1.4x because its front element didn’t protrude, so it was great for macro, too.)

If I had bought the “worst case” TCs in my experiment, I would have been very unhappy with the 300/2.8 with a 2x. With the best-case TCs that I ended up keeping, I could shoot with stacked TCs on a 40D/7D and get a fair bit more resolution than I got from upscaling. The AF on the other hand….
Thanks Chris for your comments on sample variation. I have heard similar comments from people who tested out Nikon TCs. I only tried the one of each, but did wonder. One would think for the cost of the Nikon TC there would be some quality controls they would run but who knows.
 
Kenco were always well regarded back in the day. I think they were made by Tamron.

It was tough to let mine go. It did nothing to the IQ of my 300/2.8IS or 100/2.8, and barely had an effect on my 100-400. I think I got a ‘perfect’ one.

Thanks Chris for your comments on sample variation. I have heard similar comments from people who tested out Nikon TCs. I only tried the one of each, but did wonder. One would think for the cost of the Nikon TC there would be some quality controls they would run but who knows.

You’d think, right? I was surprised to see such variation, and if I had been stuck with one of the bad samples I would have been an avowed TC hater. As it was, my 300/2.8IS was my primary wildlife lens at 600/5.6, and it did a fantastic job.

Perhaps the fact that any issue with the TC is also magnifying pre-existing weaknesses of its paired lens (that we wouldn’t normally see much of) is why they seem so hit-or-miss? Opinions on TCs are all over the map in the community!
 
It was tough to let mine go. It did nothing to the IQ of my 300/2.8IS or 100/2.8, and barely had an effect on my 100-400. I think I got a ‘perfect’ one.



You’d think, right? I was surprised to see such variation, and if I had been stuck with one of the bad samples I would have been an avowed TC hater. As it was, my 300/2.8IS was my primary wildlife lens at 600/5.6, and it did a fantastic job.

Perhaps the fact that any issue with the TC is also magnifying pre-existing weaknesses of its paired lens (that we wouldn’t normally see much of) is why they seem so hit-or-miss? Opinions on TCs are all over the map in the community!
The main issue related to variability is the physical mount and the amount of slop between it and the camera and lens mounts. Slight misalignment throws off the entire optical chain. So a bad sample might work fine with someone else's body and lens. That's one of the reasons why built-ins are so superior.
 
It seems that the variability factor would be correlated with lens model variability, in which case it might be challenging to determine where that IQ hit is coming from.

My understanding is further that a TC is going to exaggerate any weaknesses in the specific lens that it is supporting. A 70-200 FL, for example, would likely play better than a 70-200 VRI with the same TC… however minutely, of course. And that’s really what it comes down to: how much one values that difference.

I decided to try out a TC-17 after I found one at a nice price earlier this week. Will give it a go this weekend or next and see how it stacks up against its MkIII siblings.

UPDATE: I‘m now using the 120-300 on a Z8 (FTZ II) which I purchased since I started this thread in October. Still have the D850, unofficially looking for a 500 PF to pair with the zoom.
 
I had a TC-17E II in the past, but at some point decided to sell it, because - as stated before - it didn't work properly on a DSLR in combination with an AF-S 500mm f4 G. With f6.7 you got pretty close to the red flag limit of the AF system, that officially started to decativate most of the AF sensors when reaching f8, thus the AF was slow and not reliable.

Generally speaking I would try to avoid is using TC's on a DSLR with zooms and the reason is AF fine adjustment. Although you typically need the TC only at the long end, you might end up loosing some of the flexibility that the zoom normally gives you, because even with the D850 Nikon wasn't able to provide more than one adjustment setting per lens. So, if you are unlucky, AF fine adjustment at the long end coudl mean to make the situation worse for shorter folcal lengths. I observed this effect with all zoom lenses I used, i.e. 70-200 f4, 200-500, and the old 200-400 f4.

However, the DSLR limitations in terms of AF with "slower" glas have gone with the Z system and actually I am impressed how fast and spot on the AF of my Z8 works with the old 500 with and without a TC-14E II.

Now I actually plan to get a TC-17E II again to find out what the Z8 is capable of doing with a combo of the AF-S 500mm f4 G and this TC. It sounds a bit weird to have a triple combination of a long and heavy lens with a TC sitting on an FTZ adapter, but there are two things that make me think it's worth a try:

I have a Z 180-600 as an agile, light and flexible walkaroung lens and IMHO - although test reports state that resolution drop at 600mm compared to the range of 400 to 500mm - it produces really nice results on the Z8. But for stationary work in difficult lighting conditions or in situations where you might need more than 600mm, it's simply no competition to my old AFS 500 f4 G neither in terms of resolution nor AF speed and light at the sensor.
When doing the review for the AF-S 800mm f5.6 FL the guys at Photographylife did something interesting. They tested various other top lenses against it, among which ther was the AF-S 500mm f4 G solo and with all TC's available, including the TC-17E II. Looking at the results for sharpness/resolution there was a noticeable drop as it is to be expected for any use of a TC, but the difference of the TC-17EII against the TC-14E II was actually not big, which indicates that the primary problem with the TC-17EII is its influence on not IQ but the influence on AF performance, when used with slower glass. The drop in IQ when using the TC-20E III was significanlty bigger.

In your case, starting with a 2.8 you'll end up with something aroud 4.8 which to me sounds absolutely o.k. if there weren't theses issues wigh AF adjustment. If you depend on the best IQ and you can live with the risk of having to compromise IQ when zooming out while the TC is installed, that indeed could work out.

In my case, if there is an indication that the AF-S 500mm f4 G with the TC17-E II will be on par with or even slightly better than the Z 180-600 at 600mm, it could be interesting to get 850mm f6.7 with a better IQ and more light at the sensor than the Z 180-600 with a TC-1,4x, where the native resolutiuon also takes teh typical TC hit - and you start with f9 !

The second reason is simple ;) . The experiment with the TC-17E II might cost me nothing if I get a good TC-17E II copy that I can always resell after the test if I want.
With all other alternativesI would have to deal with serious 4 digit price tags. So, in your case the same argument applies. Ggood copies of used TC-17E II are not expensive, so it's worth a try ,also for you.

And there is another optional chance of improvement, too. My AF-S 500 f4G and my TC-14E II had to go to Nikon together for repair/maintenance and it turned out, that if they can put a pair of these on the bench together, it seems that there is a chance of improving the IQ of the entire set by means of some tweaking at the TC.
As my 500 f4 G needs a treatment again now, I think of handing it over to Nikon and ask them, whether they can do the same magic thing to the TC-17E II that they did to its shorter sibling.

I wish you good luck with the zoom linearity fault curve of your 120-300, so that you can use a TC-17 and still have the full flexibility with zooming.
 
Thank you for this detailed analysis of using TCs with lenses.

With respect to using the 500/4G with teleconverters, Nikon’s compatibility chart indicates that AF would work with ‘cameras that support f8’, for which they footnote a list including a few DSLRs including the D5, D4, DF, D850, etc. and a few earlier Z bodies. The 120-300 isn’t on the list. Of note, it shows the 500PF will only have AF with the TC14E III. (It seems the list hasn’t been updated in some time; I’ll continue to look for an updated one.)


I’ll watch for your outcome when/if you send in your 500G with TC17 for some bench work. I’m leaning toward a 500 prime, whether PF, G or E. Would be nice to get out to 850 at f6.7. If I get a PF, sounds like I’ll need to make do with 700/6.3... Still not so bad, I suppose, though I can already get to 600 at 5.6 with the zoom.

Looking forward now to getting the TC17 copy I just bought and trying it out, especially now that I’ve installed the 2.0 firmware update on my Z8.
 
Thank you for this detailed analysis of using TCs with lenses.

With respect to using the 500/4G with teleconverters, Nikon’s compatibility chart indicates that AF would work with ‘cameras that support f8’, for which they footnote a list including a few DSLRs including the D5, D4, DF, D850, etc. and a few earlier Z bodies. The 120-300 isn’t on the list. Of note, it shows the 500PF will only have AF with the TC14E III. (It seems the list hasn’t been updated in some time; I’ll continue to look for an updated one.)


I’ll watch for your outcome when/if you send in your 500G with TC17 for some bench work. I’m leaning toward a 500 prime, whether PF, G or E. Would be nice to get out to 850 at f6.7. If I get a PF, sounds like I’ll need to make do with 700/6.3... Still not so bad, I suppose, though I can already get to 600 at 5.6 with the zoom.

Looking forward now to getting the TC17 copy I just bought and trying it out, especially now that I’ve installed the 2.0 firmware update on my Z8.
When I first got my Z9 and didn't have a Z telephoto, I used my 500mm PF, sometimes with the 1.4TC and other times with the 1.7TC. A couple examples of the latter (many more on my Flickr):


 
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