Lance B., if only everyone were so understanding.
What are you expectation when a tour leader has problems?
- Thread starter RichF
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My B-I-L went to Tufts. What is your son planning to study?Thanks Bob
And I may contact you about that - my son is going to Tufts this fall so I may be in the area now and then. It'd be great to catch up
I may eventually do a few here and there - we already have enough people waiting for a potential Africa trip from me that I don't think I'd even need to announce it. For now, we do have places we recommend. Head to this page and Rose will contact you with lots of info
Africa Safaris - Backcountry Gallery
Africa – it’s on everyone’s bucket list. And you know what? It should be! There’s frankly no place on the planet that comes close. We’ve all seen African animals in the zoo, but nothing can compare with coming face to face with these animals in the wild. To say it’s the experience of a lifetime […]
![backcountrygallery.com](https://backcountrygallery.com/africa-safaris/\"/apple-touch-icon.png\"){kind=icon}
backcountrygallery.com
I believe this is correct. While I do have insurance for liability and such, I'm not sure if there is anything out there like this for operators - or what the price of something like that might be. Something I'll have to look into.
He's going to get his masters degree in urban planning and development. Starting in just a few weeks
Steve, I respect your honesty here, thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience. That was a terrible situation you were in with your Mom so critically ill. How you handled it is admirable. I'm sorry to hear about your loss. It's a reminder of how precious life is and how quickly things can change. Your post has helped me understand the "other" side of tours, as a participant. I've done a couple tours, and I'm scheduled for another one in the spring. I have a greater respect for the companies and guides now. Thanks again for the insight.This is why I've cut back on tours
I've had two issues and it puts you in a terrible position.
The first was when I had Covid and still had workshops that year. We weren't sure if I was going to make it and doing the workshops was a lot at the time. My breathing still hadn't recovered, my mind still was fully back, and it didn't take much to exhaust me. Still, I did them anyway as best I could.
The second was just last year. The day before two tours in Africa my mother had a massive stroke. She was in a nearly vegetative state and unable to move, speak, anything. The morning of my flight I went to visit her in the hospital and as we left I told my wife I didn't know if I would ever see her alive again. No choice though - with two tours and a hundreds of thousands of dollars spent by participants on the tour and flights, we had zero choice. It was a miserable time for me and I know I was snipper with the guests than I should have been. (Mom did pass away a few months later, but it was a for the best - she never recovered and remained mostly vegetative.)
I've not run a workshop since and not sure I will do it again. We still run Costa Rica workshops through Dennis and I can act as his backup in a pinch, but that's all I'm doing at the moment. At this point I'm too gun shy because while some people are very understating, some are not. Ih addition, once you are late in the game (the Africa trip especially), it's far too late to cancel. The vast majority of a workshop fee goes to things like hotels, vehicles, park fees, and other things you book months in advance that are NOT refundable. For the Africa trip, even if I had wanted to cancel, there we no way I could refund everyone - I don't have $200,000+ lying around and what I make is only a small fraction of that. Not to mention airfare. People think it's easy to just issue a refund if you can't do the trip, but that's not the case at all. The reality is, you HAVE to do them if you book them.
Honestly, I'm not sure if I ever will do a workshop again. I might go with friends to various places, but a formal tour, I just don't know if I want the stress. For sure if I ever do them it will be in a very limited capacity.
It's a very tough call. International trips are different, and it's much more likely to have a problem without a replacement leader. As others have mentioned, at that point the costs are already incurred and travel is in place. The only real option is to have trip insurance to provide the option to economically cancel the trip. Even then, everyone loses.
For trips within the US, I have seen health issues come up with leaders a number of times. On one occasion a leader slipped at Boulder Beach in Acadia NP and was seriously injured. Not only did he have to be evacuated, but attendees helped get him medical care. And there was no alternate leader.
I've got another friend that had back trouble ultimately resulting in surgery. His tour partner talked with me about filling in as a substitute. It was during Covid and I declined. During the 18 months of Covid, I cancelled all trips.
There are advantages and disadvantages of having an alternate leader. The more common scenario is a trip for 12-15 participants has two leaders, and while one can lead and teach, the experience and level of attention would certainly be less than half what you would normally find.
Steve's example is just one version of a worst case scenario. Illness or injury to a parent, spouse, child, or other relative could have a wide range of outcomes.
Don't forget about the possibility of impact due to injury or serious illness with a trip participant. A few years ago on day two of a week long trip I had a participant faint while on the way to the car after a midday break. He was found by hotel staff in the parking lot with a 95% loss of memory. Most of his memory returned with 30 minutes and he was just foggy. We delayed the afternoon session and took him to the hospital, then contacted his daughter who lived 8 hours away. He was in the hospital for tests, and ultimately was found to have 95+% blockage of his carotid arteries. The daughter arrived and took over care while we continued the trip. He was not permitted to travel without surgery to address the blockage. We continued the trip as scheduled with most of the remaining trip in other states. We ended up just losing a half day session due to the issues and everyone understood. Our morning had been exceptionally good.
For trips within the US, I have seen health issues come up with leaders a number of times. On one occasion a leader slipped at Boulder Beach in Acadia NP and was seriously injured. Not only did he have to be evacuated, but attendees helped get him medical care. And there was no alternate leader.
I've got another friend that had back trouble ultimately resulting in surgery. His tour partner talked with me about filling in as a substitute. It was during Covid and I declined. During the 18 months of Covid, I cancelled all trips.
There are advantages and disadvantages of having an alternate leader. The more common scenario is a trip for 12-15 participants has two leaders, and while one can lead and teach, the experience and level of attention would certainly be less than half what you would normally find.
Steve's example is just one version of a worst case scenario. Illness or injury to a parent, spouse, child, or other relative could have a wide range of outcomes.
Don't forget about the possibility of impact due to injury or serious illness with a trip participant. A few years ago on day two of a week long trip I had a participant faint while on the way to the car after a midday break. He was found by hotel staff in the parking lot with a 95% loss of memory. Most of his memory returned with 30 minutes and he was just foggy. We delayed the afternoon session and took him to the hospital, then contacted his daughter who lived 8 hours away. He was in the hospital for tests, and ultimately was found to have 95+% blockage of his carotid arteries. The daughter arrived and took over care while we continued the trip. He was not permitted to travel without surgery to address the blockage. We continued the trip as scheduled with most of the remaining trip in other states. We ended up just losing a half day session due to the issues and everyone understood. Our morning had been exceptionally good.
I hope I'm on that list. Maybe by spring 2025 you'll feel like doing some again which is realistically when I would be looking at going…but if turns out to be next spring sometime then I'm on that like fleas. Going to Glacier with Hudson H next late July and probably do CR with Connie along as spouse as well…Rose and I have been emailing about the schedule for those and we'll likely do the first one with Dennis.I may eventually do a few here and there - we already have enough people waiting for a potential Africa trip from me that I don't think I'd even need to announce it. For now, we do have places we recommend. Head to this page and Rose will contact you with lots of info
Africa Safaris - Backcountry Gallery
Africa – it’s on everyone’s bucket list. And you know what? It should be! There’s frankly no place on the planet that comes close. We’ve all seen African animals in the zoo, but nothing can compare with coming face to face with these animals in the wild. To say it’s the experience of a lifetime […]
Yup, just get with Rose and let her know you want to go to Africa if we head out again.
joe43
Well-known member
Travel insurance MAY allow you to get your money back . It depends on a lot of factors--the type of TI coverage you purchased, the specific details in that policy, etc. My wife and I had a bad experience with a very reputable carrier that required over two years of effort before we got them to pay us what we were due. That being said, we still purchase it most of the time on international trips.
Replytoken
Well-known member
That was my master's degree as well, but not from Tufts. I wish him well. The issues of the day have changed a lot since I was in graduate school.He's going to get his masters degree in urban planning and development. Starting in just a few weeks
--Ken
Illness just before or during the tour is still a risk. I'm leaving for a multi day photo tour next week. Same operation earlier this year had a tour where 4 of the 6 photographers and the tour leader had to leave during the tour after positive Covid tests. Small planes, boats, tour buses and tight accomodations can spread infections quickly. My travel insurance only kicks in if the tour is cancelled, not if the tour leader has to bow out. The margins do not allow the tour operators and guides to do much to "make it right" so I accept that there is a certain level of risk.
Sorry about your loss Steve. My wife just went through the same with her mother.
It must have been a very difficult trip to lead.
I think everyone just needs to accept some risk on these trips....
It must have been a very difficult trip to lead.
I think everyone just needs to accept some risk on these trips....
I have a tour business as well - and ye - it's a huge amount of organisation and work and things go south. I also don't want to Guide anymore. If you come to Cape Town - and I am available - give me a shout and we go find birds. Thats about how I do it now. I don't remember what is happening next Tuesday - never-mind having to book clients months in advance.
Steve - I am sorry to hear about your mom - and also how ill you were from Covid. I remember when you started working again - how hard it was for you to do Youtube.
Plenty tour guides around. You just keep writing - few can do what you do.
Steve - I am sorry to hear about your mom - and also how ill you were from Covid. I remember when you started working again - how hard it was for you to do Youtube.
Plenty tour guides around. You just keep writing - few can do what you do.
Ivy
New member
Thanks, Steve, for sharing the incredibly difficult dilemma you faced when your guided trips collided with the harsh realities of life. On 2 domestic trips
I have had guides who barely made it through the day due to GI or upper respiratory illnesses. Fortunately both illnesses were short-lived and did not impact the photo schedule. But it did cause concern going forward particularly with international trips. I have found that Greg Downing (NatureScapes), Suzi Eszterhas, and Stu Porter (Wild 4 PhotoSafaris) have such excellent, experienced, photo savvy staff on the ground (co-leading, assisting, driving) that you will not be short-changed should an emergency arise. So in general, I try to book with experienced tour guides who have the best support staff.
I have had guides who barely made it through the day due to GI or upper respiratory illnesses. Fortunately both illnesses were short-lived and did not impact the photo schedule. But it did cause concern going forward particularly with international trips. I have found that Greg Downing (NatureScapes), Suzi Eszterhas, and Stu Porter (Wild 4 PhotoSafaris) have such excellent, experienced, photo savvy staff on the ground (co-leading, assisting, driving) that you will not be short-changed should an emergency arise. So in general, I try to book with experienced tour guides who have the best support staff.
Nice as it may sound - when you get known, build a reputation, and are well liked - people want to tour with you personally.
Your company has no value as YOU are the value - so if you fold - the business folds. Zero value in the business from that angle.
A touring business takes your life over and nothing else counts as you live and breathe clients. You hold people's destination-dreams in your hands.
Guides make or break a touring company. People will book or cancel because of a guide.
Your company has no value as YOU are the value - so if you fold - the business folds. Zero value in the business from that angle.
A touring business takes your life over and nothing else counts as you live and breathe clients. You hold people's destination-dreams in your hands.
Guides make or break a touring company. People will book or cancel because of a guide.
bjhfleming
New member
Steve, I am so very sorry to hear about your Mother, all the best to you and your family. I too have had difficulties with leading groups and have decided to stop. Too much stress. I support you in your difficult decision. Glad you're feeling better and hope it continues. All the best, Barb
Steve, I completely understand and appreciate your misgivings but for the sake of your many fans, I sincerely hope that you do offer workshops again. We promise to go easy on you if you do!This is why I've cut back on tours
I've had two issues and it puts you in a terrible position.
The first was when I had Covid and still had workshops that year. We weren't sure if I was going to make it and doing the workshops was a lot at the time. My breathing still hadn't recovered, my mind still was fully back, and it didn't take much to exhaust me. Still, I did them anyway as best I could.
The second was just last year. The day before two tours in Africa my mother had a massive stroke. She was in a nearly vegetative state and unable to move, speak, anything. The morning of my flight I went to visit her in the hospital and as we left I told my wife I didn't know if I would ever see her alive again. No choice though - with two tours and a hundreds of thousands of dollars spent by participants on the tour and flights, we had zero choice. It was a miserable time for me and I know I was snipper with the guests than I should have been. (Mom did pass away a few months later, but it was a for the best - she never recovered and remained mostly vegetative.)
I've not run a workshop since and not sure I will do it again. We still run Costa Rica workshops through Dennis and I can act as his backup in a pinch, but that's all I'm doing at the moment. At this point I'm too gun shy because while some people are very understating, some are not. Ih addition, once you are late in the game (the Africa trip especially), it's far too late to cancel. The vast majority of a workshop fee goes to things like hotels, vehicles, park fees, and other things you book months in advance that are NOT refundable. For the Africa trip, even if I had wanted to cancel, there we no way I could refund everyone - I don't have $200,000+ lying around and what I make is only a small fraction of that. Not to mention airfare. People think it's easy to just issue a refund if you can't do the trip, but that's not the case at all. The reality is, you HAVE to do them if you book them.
Honestly, I'm not sure if I ever will do a workshop again. I might go with friends to various places, but a formal tour, I just don't know if I want the stress. For sure if I ever do them it will be in a very limited capacity.
Steve has some important observations about tours that many people may not be aware of that are worth considering. I guess I would ask, did you enjoy the trip and have a good time? If so, then I’d just chalk it up to Forest Gump’s expression, “s#@t happens”
