What is the general rule of thumb for bird photography in terms of subject distance

[mosoaringwings]

To get a good quality of photo, not just for a picture to identify the bird. I understand it matters what lens and the size of the bird. But just to simplify, let's say it is shot with 45MP full frame (or 20MP crop sensor) and 600mm with 1.4tc.

There is a osprey nest about 2hr drive for me, and I heard the distance of the nest to the shore is about 80 yard. I wonder 840mm would be enough to get some good pictures. For my own criteria, the max crop I can go is the picture should have at less 8MP. If 8MP after the crop, the bird is still small then I don't think the picture is great. I am kind of debating whether to go. Thank you!

 

[Zep33]

You'll be a ble to get some great shots at that distance I would think. Especially if they fly around a bit. Maybe even come closer to you.

We have tons of osprey here in the summer time. Love to try and catch them diving

They're a large enough bird for you to have some success.

Where are you? Is that the only nest in that area?

 

[mosoaringwings]

You'll be a ble to get some great shots at that distance I would think. Especially if they fly around a bit. Maybe even come closer to you.

We have tons of osprey here in the summer time. Love to try and catch them diving

They're a large enough bird for you to have some success.

Where are you? Is that the only nest in that area?

Thank you very much! I live in St. Louis Missouri, unfortunately we don't get many osprey in our area, this is the only place I know that is not too far, but still not close.

 

[Anthony]

I have never been in 80 yards of an osprey. I am so jealous. Go for it.

 

[Replytoken]

I would say - it depends. There are never guarantees with BIF, but if you go with the gear you mentioned, you may have a chance at some nice shots if they are flying out and about. But 80 yards is a lot of distance to cover, so your answer will depend on your image quality at the time of the shot, your expectations and how large you want to print the image.

--Ken

 

[David Berry]

… a good quality of photo, not just for a picture to identify the bird…

Mo…

Both distances — travel and camera-to-nest — are too great, methinks.

But let’s be positive:

• if the nest is high, then your distance from it will decrease the angle that your lens is pointing upward (that’s good);
• your chances of BIF shots of parents arriving/departing are high.

Too heck with negativity! Go for it; just resist the temptation of switching your camera to crop mode (do that back at your nest).

… David

 

[BillW]

I think it is worth a try. I often photograph at an island rookery on the Mississippi River. The rookery is on two islands and has large numbers of great blue heron, great egret and double crested cormorant nests. The islands are closed to visitors (and being on the island or in a nearby boat would not give you a good angle anyway). There is a park on shore. From the park riverbank, the closest nests are 80-85 yards on one island and around 125 yards on the other island.

I shoot with a Z8 or Z9 and the Z 800 mm PF, often with the 1.4x TC. (Before I got the 800 mm PF, I used the 500 mm PF and F 2x TC.) Even then I may crop some, depending on the shot. I like to shoot in the morning to minimize heat haze. Also, I think distortion from heating of the waters is less, since the nests are in the trees, not on the water level. The birds are fun to photograph flyjng around the rookery, building nests, and interacting with each other and with young ones.

I also photograph osprey at a lake in northern Minnesota. You can get a bit closer, but the angle to the nests gets sharper as you get closer, limiting how close you can get. It’s fun to see the osprey in the nests, especially when the little ones are big enough to see. It’s fun to see them fishing and feeding the young ones. Landings and takeoffs are great. And osprey often wash their claws in the water after feeding.

 

[BillW]

Mo…

Both distances — travel and camera-to-nest — are too great, methinks.

But let’s be positive:

• if the nest is high, then your distance from it will decrease the angle that your lens is pointing upward (that’s good);
• your chances of BIF shots of parents arriving/departing are high.

Too heck with negativity! Go for it; just resist the temptation of switching your camera to crop mode (do that back at your nest).

… David

I prefer to crop in post too. But in some cases, I can get more accurate AF with subject detection in crop mode with my Z9 & Z8. Where this seems to be the case, I may use crop mode if I’m sure I’ll crop anyway. Important then to remember to go back to full frame when done.

This may vary with other cameras.

 

[Ivan Rothman]

Just for fun, I looked up the formula for calculating how much of the frame is filled for an object at a given distance and lens focal length.

(Focal length x subject size x 100) divided by (distance x sensor size) = percentage of frame filled by object.
All measurements in millimeters.

Assuming Osprey has a wingspan of 72 inches or about 1800mm
Then for an Osprey 80 yards away with a 600mm lens + 1.4X TC and a full frame sensor - the Osprey will fill about 50% of the frame

I've never done this calculation before so I hope my numbers are correct.

 

[jcollins]

Can confirm from my own experience, 80yards is reasonably close for a subject that large. I've shot osprey at that distance before and it was great. A few days ago I had a great blue heron in flight about 80yds away (maybe 25% larger wingspan than osprey?) ... I was in crop mode (shorebird day...) at 370mm and the wingspan was about 50% of the frame, so I'd honestly even say 600mm + 1.4x TC could be too much for an osprey? I'd prefer to have some wiggle room as the bird flies around and crop in post, instead of having to have the frame perfectly composed 100% of the time.

 

[Doomrider74]

I have a local osprey pair but the nest is out in the channel, approx. 50m from the shore. That's not really a good distance to photograph as theyre pretty small in the VF with my 500pf. When the tide is out, you can get pretty close (approx. 15m), although you're looking up at the nest.

For me, the challenge is not getting decent shots of them on the nest, or coming and going from the nest - I have hundreds of those, as do other people - it's catching them fishing or doing other interesting things, which is more of a challenge, and comes down to luck, mostly, and getting closer to the nest won't help.

I'll try and post a few from the weekend when I can.

 

[Anjin San]

The field of view of an 800mm FF lens is 2.6 degrees horizontal and 1.7 vertical…so taking the sine of this for an approximation it's 0.045. Multiply times 80 yards and that's 3.6 yards wide and 2.3 yards tall so it's 11 feet wide and 7 feet tall. An osprey is 2 feet tall with a 6 foot wingspan so you'll fill approximately 1/3 of the vertical dimension of the FF image. Cutting that to DX would move it to about half the height of the viewfinder. For me…that's a decent environmental shot but not so much a good portrait or closeup…but if it's the best you can do then it's the best you can do. If it''s in flight…then you'll fill about half the frame horizontally if it's coming towards you.

Since you don't get many osprey up that way…I would probably go and get what I could…cropping the DX a bit would give you a decently filled frame.

 

[EricKlees]

I don't look at distance per se, but how much of the frame the bird fills. Ideally I want the bird to fill about half of the frame. This leaves Ron to crop for composition if need be.

I also have no issue cropping the Z9+Z800mm to around 100% if need be and still print pristine and sharp images up to 20x30 with that kind of crop

At the distance you're talking about, paper at 80 yards is ok. Maybe not the best feather detail but should be decent

 

[wotan1]

I live near a Great Blue Heron rookery and one of my favorite activities is shooting these birds in flight. I am usually shooting roughly 80-100 yards from the top of the tree, and some of the birds in flight are farther away.

Shooting with the 800mm pf I have quite a lot of great images to work with from that distance. An osprey is a smaller bird. You will never know if you don’t try.

 

[bleirer]

Here is a good site to calculate your field of view for different focal lengths and sensors. Should show you what you need. As you can see 840mm full frame at 80 yards gives an area of 3.4 yards by 2.2 yards. Using it cropped to DX it would be 2.2 by 1.5 yards.

Camera Field of View Details and Calculator (FoV)

Calculator of Field of View of camera and lens, both the dimensional size of the Field Of View seen at a specified distance, and also Angle Of View.

www.scantips.com

 

[ARClark]

To get a good quality of photo, not just for a picture to identify the bird. I understand it matters what lens and the size of the bird. But just to simplify, let's say it is shot with 45MP full frame (or 20MP crop sensor) and 600mm with 1.4tc.

There is a osprey nest about 2hr drive for me, and I heard the distance of the nest to the shore is about 80 yard. I wonder 840mm would be enough to get some good pictures. For my own criteria, the max crop I can go is the picture should have at less 8MP. If 8MP after the crop, the bird is still small then I don't think the picture is great. I am kind of debating whether to go. Thank you!

You should be able to get some keepers with that gear and at that distance. However, if you're not familiar with shooting long lenses, adverse atmospheric conditions can ruin your trip, at least from a photographic standpoint. This video from Steve is an excellent one on the subject and very much worth viewing in advance of planning your trip.

 

[PhotoLover]

I don't look at distance per se, but how much of the frame the bird fills. Ideally I want the bird to fill about half of the frame. This leaves Ron to crop for composition if need be.

I also have no issue cropping the Z9+Z800mm to around 100% if need be and still print pristine and sharp images up to 20x30 with that kind of crop

At the distance you're talking about, paper at 80 yards is ok. Maybe not the best feather detail but should be decent

80 yards with a 600 and a 1.4 teleconverter doesn't seem bad to me, strictly from a distance perspective.

On a FF, 600 with a 1.4 is 840, which is what, 16.8x magnification. 80 yards/16.8 = 4.7. So I think that is equivalent to being a bit less than 5 yards or 15 feet away. Not RIGHT THERE but I'd say worth the drive if you have no other access to Ospreys. Anything taking off and flying towards you will quickly fill the frame. Go early on a day that isn't hot ....

And those numbers for FF, so certainly some cropping opportunities.

 

[Ralph]

I would say - it depends. There are never guarantees with BIF, but if you go with the gear you mentioned, you may have a chance at some nice shots if they are flying out and about. But 80 yards is a lot of distance to cover, so your answer will depend on your image quality at the time of the shot, your expectations and how large you want to print the image.

--Ken

You will be ok if the light is behind you. I shoot with a crop sensor(d500) , a 500mm and 1.4 x tc for most of my shots at about the same distance. The adults come out great but I‘m pushing it with the little guys. I do crop but images look good. Check out some of my post.

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[mosoaringwings]

Thank you all so much for the great feedback!!! I plan to give a try this weekend if weather is good. Will post some pictures if I get any good ones.

 

[Ralph]

Thank you all so much for the great feedback!!! I plan to give a try this weekend if weather is good. Will post some pictures if I get any good ones.

Enjoy the trip. Remember that just getting out there is part of the fun. Here is another shot with my setup just to give you added motivation.

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[EricBowles]

To get a good quality of photo, not just for a picture to identify the bird. I understand it matters what lens and the size of the bird. But just to simplify, let's say it is shot with 45MP full frame (or 20MP crop sensor) and 600mm with 1.4tc.

There is a osprey nest about 2hr drive for me, and I heard the distance of the nest to the shore is about 80 yard. I wonder 840mm would be enough to get some good pictures. For my own criteria, the max crop I can go is the picture should have at less 8MP. If 8MP after the crop, the bird is still small then I don't think the picture is great. I am kind of debating whether to go. Thank you!

You'll probably be cropping, but 80 yards is okay. For a subject like an osprey, the key will be the lighting. Since the nest is at a fixed location, I'd make sure to time the trip so the sun angle was ideal. Also consider the wind direction since they will typically approach and take off flying into the wind.

Obviously the real issue is how much of the frame you are able to fill. So 80 yards is fine for a bird flying, landing or taking off, but you'll probably wish you were closer for chicks on the nest. Smaller birds would mean needing to get closer - and with songbirds might mean you need to be around 20-25 feet.

 

[fcotterill]

Yes, framing a large raptor perched at 80 yards will require cropping, even with a 1600mm rig with either DX or FX. The schematic shared in this older thread refers. There's a high likelihood the ospreys will be flying, and hopefully venture closer to you

Maximum Reach?

I've been trying to shoot nesting owls. The nest is 80' up in a tree and the closest I can get (or would want to. I don't want to injure them) is @80 yards away on a hillside. There's a fire road with hikers and mountain bikers between us, so I'm sure i'm not bothering them. The nest was...

bcgforums.com

 

[Strodav]

The amount of detail that can be captured depends on the number of sensor elements you can get on the subject and the quality of the lens. If you can fill 1/4 of the frame of a D850 / Z9 that gives you about 11mp. You can do a lot with 11 mp, but that's about as low as I would go. Another "trick" is to take heavily cropped shots into Topaz Gigapixel AI. If the shot is in focus, you'll be surprised at the results you can get.

 

[bleirer]

1600 mm at 80 yards with fx gives a field of view of 1.8 by 1.2 yards. With DX it is 1.2 by .8 yards.

 

[Marcelo_R]

This is a nice "rule of thumb" that Nikon made years and years ago:

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Krgds, Marcelo