Workflow modification adding Topaz Photo AI

[Jmoffett]

As a newbie, I have another question for this wise group. My typical workflow for post processing is as follows:

1. Transfer files from camera memory cards into my standard file folder structure on a SSD working drive and backup HD with another copy on iCloud. The folder structure has separate folders for each step of the process to keep the files separated and easy to search.
2. Rename files using "A Better File Rename" program using the following format for search ability - YYYY-MM-DD HH_MM C-Basic Descriptor Text-123456-Editing Descriptor
3. I cull and select files for further processing if needed with "Photo Mechanic 6"
4. Since I shoot a D500 primary and a D7500 secondary, I use Nikon NX Studio for post adjustments and conversion to JPG. ****
5. If I need a water mark to put the file name at the bottom of the pic for identification, I use "iWatermark Pro" and have a separate folder for WM photos.

Since I shoot manual, auto ISO, and there are times that I accept the fact it is better to push ISO, get noise, but get the shot rather than sacrifice shutter speed and DOF. Because of this, I have decided to get Topaz Photo AI to de-noise and sharpen as needed. I contacted Topaz Labs about where to place Photo AI in my workflow, but was a little surprised with their response and wanted to bounce it off everyone here.

Topaz recommends running the files through Photo AI prior to post processing in NX Studio, LR or PS. This is opposite of what I was expecting.

What do all of you do for this?


****Not trying to start a separate discussion here, but my reasoning for using NX Studio comes as a result of completing Christopher Balmer's on-line training classes of The Yellowstone Camera Store and Perfect Light Camera and Supply and talking to Christopher in person at his West Yellowstone store. I learned that LR and PS apply their own algorithms rather than Nikon's proprietary algorithms and data is actually reduced/deleted from the original file and can be seen in a reduction of file size. The same is true for Cannon and Sony. In the past, I used PS and LR but have since found that many times, no adjustments are needed in NX studio as opposed to PS and LR. Basically, the camera was taking better pics than I thought it was. The controls are basically identical and less work is involved. A side benefit that I really did not factor in, is that the camera manufacturer's software is free. In any case, Christopher made a believer out of me. I know and respect that everyone has their opinions and preferences. At the end of the day, NX Studio works well for this newbie.

 

[bleirer]

I'm not sure of the answer. I know you can't demosaic a raw file once and take that result and demosaic it again. So I think if you want the look NX studio gives you, you would do that first then send the resulting tiff to photo ai, or use it as a layer in photoshop if you use photoshop. I don't use photo ai but the answer you quoted implies that photo ai can also demosaic a raw file since they told you to use photo ai first. In that case you would then be working in nxstudio on whatever file type photo ai produced after it was demosaiced by photo ai.

I use dxo with lightroom and send on to photoshop, adding topaz sharpen as a layer in photoshop.in my case DXO is doing the demosaicing and I am working on a tiff in photoshop. Some like to have dxo send a dng back to lightroom, in which case it is demosaiced by dxo but as a .dng file so other than demosaicing some of the raw processes are still available.

 

[PhotoLover]

As a newbie, I have another question for this wise group. My typical workflow for post processing is as follows:

1. Transfer files from camera memory cards into my standard file folder structure on a SSD working drive and backup HD with another copy on iCloud. The folder structure has separate folders for each step of the process to keep the files separated and easy to search.
2. Rename files using "A Better File Rename" program using the following format for search ability - YYYY-MM-DD HH_MM C-Basic Descriptor Text-123456-Editing Descriptor
3. I cull and select files for further processing if needed with "Photo Mechanic 6"
4. Since I shoot a D500 primary and a D7500 secondary, I use Nikon NX Studio for post adjustments and conversion to JPG. ****
5. If I need a water mark to put the file name at the bottom of the pic for identification, I use "iWatermark Pro" and have a separate folder for WM photos.

Since I shoot manual, auto ISO, and there are times that I accept the fact it is better to push ISO, get noise, but get the shot rather than sacrifice shutter speed and DOF. Because of this, I have decided to get Topaz Photo AI to de-noise and sharpen as needed. I contacted Topaz Labs about where to place Photo AI in my workflow, but was a little surprised with their response and wanted to bounce it off everyone here.

Topaz recommends running the files through Photo AI prior to post processing in NX Studio, LR or PS. This is opposite of what I was expecting.

What do all of you do for this?


****Not trying to start a separate discussion here, but my reasoning for using NX Studio comes as a result of completing Christopher Balmer's on-line training classes of The Yellowstone Camera Store and Perfect Light Camera and Supply and talking to Christopher in person at his West Yellowstone store. I learned that LR and PS apply their own algorithms rather than Nikon's proprietary algorithms and data is actually reduced/deleted from the original file and can be seen in a reduction of file size. The same is true for Cannon and Sony. In the past, I used PS and LR but have since found that many times, no adjustments are needed in NX studio as opposed to PS and LR. Basically, the camera was taking better pics than I thought it was. The controls are basically identical and less work is involved. A side benefit that I really did not factor in, is that the camera manufacturer's software is free. In any case, Christopher made a believer out of me. I know and respect that everyone has their opinions and preferences. At the end of the day, NX Studio works well for this newbie.

So I'm a little confused by a couple of things here. First, I assume you are shooting in RAW mode? I assume this because you note that NX Studio is used for conversion to jpg.

As context, here is my post-processing workflow:

1. Import RAW files from cards directly into LR.
   • I rename the files on import to something like vacationX_date_time, and copy the files from the cards into the appropriate LR folder(s)
   • I have an import preset that makes the rather bland RAW images look a bit more like out of camera jpgs -- add a bit of contrast, clarity and vibrance. Note: if you don't do this the images are really rather uninspring compared the jpgs the camera produce .... which are processed.
2. Now I cull bad shot/edit good shots, etc. For the ones left:
   • At this point I might change the profile, from say Adobe color to Adobe landscape
   • I think Topaz does recommend (for their standalone programs like sharpen AI to run this step early). So I take the file into PS here, and run the Topaz stuff from PS (I just find this works better than directly from LR, for whatever reason). This of course creates a TIFF file. I save back into LR, unless I want to do some PS stuff here. I now have both the original RAW image and a much larger TIFF file.
   • Now back in LR, I do further edits.
   • Note that Steve recommends that if you use the relatively new denoise in LR, that you do it early in the process as well (this will create a DNG file) so if I use LR denoise, I'll do it early in the process.
   • I will say that I personally haven't noticed a big difference in using the Topaz stuff or the LR denoise later in the process versus earlier but perhaps I'm missing something.
3. If I export a photo -- say for use in the Back Country Gallery forums -- I'll put a watermark in the generated jpg as part of the LR export process.

The part of your question I was confused about is that I'm fairly certain that LR does not alter the original RAW file in any way when you edit. Changes are recorded and stored in the LR catalog or a sidecar file. I believe you may have misinterpreted something in the online classes. If you take the RAW photo into PS or Topaz a new TIFF file is created that may or may not (depending on your choices at the time you invoke the program) include any changes made in LR. Either way, the original unchanged RAW image is still sitting there.

The Nikon NX Studio probably does use different algorithms than LR when processing images (it's different software after all) and since I don't use NX Studio I don't have an opinion on which does a better job -- though I'm skeptical that NX Studio is better if you know your way around LR and PS. It may be that NX Studio does what I do when I import into LR -- do a bit of processing by default, which LR does not unless you add an import preset.

 

[EricBowles]

Topaz Photo AI is a pretty good program, but it does create a new file and in my experience does work better when starting with a RAW file rather than editing in LR and then going to Topaz. My normal plan is to just edit in LR and not go to Photo AI without a really good reason - usually meaning I have an image that needs help and is worth the time involved. I probably only go to Topaz for 1-2% of the images I edit - which are 2-3% of the images I take. Photo AI has some good editing tools that can be concurrently applied to an image - such as healing and cropping. The resulting image is a DNG with the Topaz edits baked into the file.

Nikon NX Studio is the best way to render an image equivalent to an in camera JPEG. It does a very good job rendering Nikon colors. You can adjust some settings like Picture Controls and WB after the fact. It also has Control Points - one of the best local adjustment tools from any company if you know how to use it. Vincent Versace starts his image editing in Nikon NX Studio before going to Photoshop or other tools. NX is not a good tools for high volume editing - it's a bit slow compared to alternatives. But you can take edits from one image and copy them to another image, so it depends on what you are trying to do.

I find LR Classic is not perfect, but the workflow is good. The resulting edits are pretty good and suitable for most work. I start my workflow with Photo Mechanic for download and ingest, folder naming, file naming, keywording, copyright, rating, and identifying selects. I only take into LRC the images I plan to edit - or interim images such as from Photo AI, Helicon Focus, or other tools.

 

[PhotoLover]

Topaz Photo AI is a pretty good program, but it does create a new file and in my experience does work better when starting with a RAW file rather than editing in LR and then going to Topaz. My normal plan is to just edit in LR and not go to Photo AI without a really good reason - usually meaning I have an image that needs help and is worth the time involved. I probably only go to Topaz for 1-2% of the images I edit - which are 2-3% of the images I take. Photo AI has some good editing tools that can be concurrently applied to an image - such as healing and cropping. The resulting image is a DNG with the Topaz edits baked into the file.

Nikon NX Studio is the best way to render an image equivalent to an in camera JPEG. It does a very good job rendering Nikon colors. You can adjust some settings like Picture Controls and WB after the fact. It also has Control Points - one of the best local adjustment tools from any company if you know how to use it. Vincent Versace starts his image editing in Nikon NX Studio before going to Photoshop or other tools. NX is not a good tools for high volume editing - it's a bit slow compared to alternatives. But you can take edits from one image and copy them to another image, so it depends on what you are trying to do.

I find LR Classic is not perfect, but the workflow is good. The resulting edits are pretty good and suitable for most work. I start my workflow with Photo Mechanic for download and ingest, folder naming, file naming, keywording, copyright, rating, and identifying selects. I only take into LRC the images I plan to edit - or interim images such as from Photo AI, Helicon Focus, or other tools.

Like Eric, only a small percent of pictures I take get run through the Topaz programs. I use the new LR denoise a bit more (it's good and more convenient bringing up the Topaz stuff).

However, I'm don't know what images I want to throw more firepower at until I open them in LR and perhaps adjust exposure a bit. Thus I would always be invoking Topaz from LR or PS. But it seems like if I reset the RAW image to no changes and then invoked topaz, it should be the exactly the same as if I brought up Photo AI on the RAW image directly and then took the resulting TIFF into LR.

Am I missing something Eric?

 

[EricBowles]

Like Eric, only a small percent of pictures I take get run through the Topaz programs. I use the new LR denoise a bit more (it's good and more convenient bringing up the Topaz stuff).

However, I'm don't know what images I want to throw more firepower at until I open them in LR and perhaps adjust exposure a bit. Thus I would always be invoking Topaz from LR or PS. But it seems like if I reset the RAW image to no changes and then invoked topaz, it should be the exactly the same as if I brought up Photo AI on the RAW image directly and then took the resulting TIFF into LR.

Am I missing something Eric?

Not really - my approach is similar but has a slight difference in workflow. After a view in LRC or a quick edit, I might find an image needs more advanced sharpening and noise reduction in Topaz Photo. I simply open the image directly in Topaz Photo AI, and then when completed I Import the resulting DNG to LRC. That way I can keep my edits on LR. Of course, you can always use a virtual copy in LR or other methods. The point is the LRC edits don't conflict with the Photo AI edits and Topaz has a clean, raw image from the start. Occasionally I have made some edits in LRC in my initial pass, and since I still have those edits I can use the Previous button to apply them to the new image after using PhotoAI. These edits might be cropping, exposure adjustments, or cloning - but you have to be careful about any edit settings in Photo AI or on Import to LRC.

 

[PhotoLover]

Not really - my approach is similar but has a slight difference in workflow. After a view in LRC or a quick edit, I might find an image needs more advanced sharpening and noise reduction in Topaz Photo. I simply open the image directly in Topaz Photo AI, and then when completed I Import the resulting DNG to LRC. That way I can keep my edits on LR. Of course, you can always use a virtual copy in LR or other methods. The point is the LRC edits don't conflict with the Photo AI edits and Topaz has a clean, raw image from the start. Occasionally I have made some edits in LRC in my initial pass, and since I still have those edits I can use the Previous button to apply them to the new image after using PhotoAI. These edits might be cropping, exposure adjustments, or cloning - but you have to be careful about any edit settings in Photo AI or on Import to LRC.

Makes sense. You know, I never think about or use the Previous button in LR and I'm thinking that is a time-saving option I should be using it a bit more ... I do use sync setting a lot, but sometimes Previous would be easier.

I do think we should make clear as a general point for the OP that LR does not delete or change data in the original RAW image.

 

[bleirer]

It seems from the OP question that they don't have or don't want to use lightroom or photoshop, but want to integrate photo ai into an NX studio workflow. I'm wondering what file type photo ai outputs when applied first, and can nxstudio load that file type for further editing?

 

[Camatose]

I use DXO, but a similar process.

Upload from card using a reader. Cull using Faststone (same idea as Photo Mechanic, but free).

Here I differentiate between files that need NR and those that don't. If they do, I send files through DXO, which corrects lenses/noise, then process using Darktable. If they don't need NR I skip DXO and let Darktable handle lens correction, etc.

DXO (and I think Topaz?) create their own file once complete, in my case it's a huge DNG. Once processing is done, I keep the original RAW and the jpeg, but the DNG gets deleted to save storage space. It's unnecessary to keep and easy enough to run through DXO if I ever need to again.

I shoot a lot of images in similar light on a given day, so I do batch processing and reduce resolution on export to jpeg, which is good enough for posting online. If someone wants an image for printing or advertising or whatever, I reprocess it individually with higher quality in mind.

 

[bleirer]

To me, where the initial demosaicing happens is the important part, since you can't ring that bell twice. To denoise, any program has to demosaic first just to have pixels to denoise. A raw file has no noise per se in its raw state. Meaning to me the decision is which demosaicing do you like better. I like how DXO does it. Some people prefer how lightroom/camera raw does it, others, like the OP, prefer how the software provided by the camera maker does it. The other factor is the hassle of extra steps and whether that is worth it.

 

[Viathelens]

I"ve always done denoise first. I also use Topaz.

 

[JAJohnson]

As a newbie, I have another question for this wise group. My typical workflow for post processing is as follows:

1. Transfer files from camera memory cards into my standard file folder structure on a SSD working drive and backup HD with another copy on iCloud. The folder structure has separate folders for each step of the process to keep the files separated and easy to search.
2. Rename files using "A Better File Rename" program using the following format for search ability - YYYY-MM-DD HH_MM C-Basic Descriptor Text-123456-Editing Descriptor
3. I cull and select files for further processing if needed with "Photo Mechanic 6"
4. Since I shoot a D500 primary and a D7500 secondary, I use Nikon NX Studio for post adjustments and conversion to JPG. ****
5. If I need a water mark to put the file name at the bottom of the pic for identification, I use "iWatermark Pro" and have a separate folder for WM photos.

Since I shoot manual, auto ISO, and there are times that I accept the fact it is better to push ISO, get noise, but get the shot rather than sacrifice shutter speed and DOF. Because of this, I have decided to get Topaz Photo AI to de-noise and sharpen as needed. I contacted Topaz Labs about where to place Photo AI in my workflow, but was a little surprised with their response and wanted to bounce it off everyone here.

Topaz recommends running the files through Photo AI prior to post processing in NX Studio, LR or PS. This is opposite of what I was expecting.

What do all of you do for this?


****Not trying to start a separate discussion here, but my reasoning for using NX Studio comes as a result of completing Christopher Balmer's on-line training classes of The Yellowstone Camera Store and Perfect Light Camera and Supply and talking to Christopher in person at his West Yellowstone store. I learned that LR and PS apply their own algorithms rather than Nikon's proprietary algorithms and data is actually reduced/deleted from the original file and can be seen in a reduction of file size. The same is true for Cannon and Sony. In the past, I used PS and LR but have since found that many times, no adjustments are needed in NX studio as opposed to PS and LR. Basically, the camera was taking better pics than I thought it was. The controls are basically identical and less work is involved. A side benefit that I really did not factor in, is that the camera manufacturer's software is free. In any case, Christopher made a believer out of me. I know and respect that everyone has their opinions and preferences. At the end of the day, NX Studio works well for this newbie.

I use NX Studio to cull my .NEF raw files to select those I want to keep for further editing. I prefer NX Studio to Photo Mechanic because the data is read and rendered EXACTLY as captured by the camera. Other editors read and then interpret Nikon’s raw data, and most do an acceptable job at it, but NX Studio assures I’m seeing what I’ve captured in highest fidelity. And, I can see where the focus indicator is on each image.

I would not recommend using Photo AI before importing your images to NX Studio. If you’re going to process images in Photo AI after NX Studio, export to TIFF, for best quality.

My workflow is to cull in NX Studio, and do most editing in LrC with occasional use of Photoshop, where needed. At one time, I used Topaz Denoise and Sharpen, then Photo AI when it became available. However, I’ve been very unhappy with Photo AI for sharpening and Adobe’s denoise in LrC works quite well. I’m probably not going to renew my Topaz subscription.

I should mention that I’m giving NX Studio another look as an editing tool for images with certain subjects (architecture, in particular). I will continue to use LrC for wildlife images.

 

[Jmoffett]

Thanks to everyone for your wise advice and sharing your experience. It provides a much better understanding. The members of this group are always very helpful as well as courteous to newbies like me asking questions that have probably been asked multiple times. I appreciate your patience and understanding. I'm in the process of going through all my photos from our Egypt/Jordan trip a couple of weeks ago. Because of the lighting levels in many of the tombs, I had to push to higher ISO's, understanding I would see more noise but I didn’t want to miss once in a lifetime shots. That is the main reason I got Topaz Photo AI. Looking forward to seeing the results. Thanks again.