jas2go
New member
I used a Tampon 150-600 mm lens on my Z7. The noise was incredible. I was shooting Sandhill Cranes coming in at dusk. Is there a better lens to use?
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If you can borrow or rent a Nikon 200-500 F5.6 it may be better but honestly the difference between f5.6 and f6.3 isn't really huge. I've shot the Sandhills coming in at dusk in Jasper-Pulaski and getting a shutter speed fast enough to freeze their movement even at F5.6 requires a higher ISO than I really like to use.
May try Topaz DeNoise AI. It isn't magic but it does a reasonable job fo reducing noise a bit..
If the 200-500 doesn't do the trick, you're probably looking at one of the F4 prime lenses (big $$$ expensive).
Another option if you're in the Z system is try a Z6 which is supposed to have better low light performance (I've never used it so I cannot say from personal experience and therefore will not make a recommendation).
Hope this helps
Jeff
May try Topaz DeNoise AI. It isn't magic but it does a reasonable job fo reducing noise a bit..
If the 200-500 doesn't do the trick, you're probably looking at one of the F4 prime lenses (big $$$ expensive).
Another option if you're in the Z system is try a Z6 which is supposed to have better low light performance (I've never used it so I cannot say from personal experience and therefore will not make a recommendation).
Hope this helps
Jeff
BillW
Well-known member
What shutter speed, aperture and ISO were you using?
Without more info it's hard to say what went wrong - as Bill says setting would help a lot. Also, if you could post a sample that may help too.
jas2go
New member
Thanks Jeff.
I did use DeNoise to correct the photos. I was surprised at the noise even at 400 ISO with this camera and lens.
jas2go
New member
I was shooting between 500 -1000, f6.4 to f9, ISO 640-6400. I set the shutter and aperture and let the camera set the ISO. All were grainy.
I bought your monopod and mono gimbal head. It was too shaky for me. I have to use my tripod and gimbal.
Skye.prf
Member
Always a kind of deception using D850 or Z7 in low light... and yes, 5.6 or 6.3 will not make (a uge) the difference. And yes, the noise in the Z6 is significantly better. And I do not understand Canon going with their new F8 to F11 lenses!!! Just not understanding.
jas2go
New member
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You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.
jas2go
New member
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jas2go
New member
1/500, f9, ISO6400 first image.
1/1000, f9, ISO 6400 on second image
1/1000, f9, ISO 6400 on second image
The second shot doesn't look terrible to me - I think some noise reduction would fix it.
It looks like there are two issues in the first (landing) shot. It looks like a heavy crop to me. Anytime you have to crop - especially heavily - you end up throwing away ISO performance. The problem is, the smaller the subjects are in the frame, the easier it is for the noise to overwhelm the detail. Couple that with the fact that you aren't capturing the same level of detail you would have with a frame-filling shot and noise can really be a problem. I have a very in-depth article that might help:
![backcountrygallery.com](https://backcountrygallery.com/the-cropping-epidemic/\"/apple-touch-icon.png\")
backcountrygallery.com
In addition, it really looks like it might be a touch backfoused to me. It's tough to tell for sure, but I think the grass in the water behind the birds look sharper than the birds. Any areas that are out of focus tend to look noisier than the sharp areas. When you're shooting higher ISOs, anytime the subject isn't tack-sharp it'll look worse. Despite the fact that I had to crop the ISO 6400 shot below to DX from the D850, because it was perfectly sharp on the face I was able to use it after some noise reduction.
Finally, ISO 6400 really is the high-end for the Z7 IMO. So, you're also at what I consider the upper acceptable limit for ISO - combined with cropping and potentially a touch of back focus, this looks about right.
It looks like there are two issues in the first (landing) shot. It looks like a heavy crop to me. Anytime you have to crop - especially heavily - you end up throwing away ISO performance. The problem is, the smaller the subjects are in the frame, the easier it is for the noise to overwhelm the detail. Couple that with the fact that you aren't capturing the same level of detail you would have with a frame-filling shot and noise can really be a problem. I have a very in-depth article that might help:
The Cropping Epidemic - Backcountry Gallery
I see it all the time – lens jockeys hacking off pixels and tossing them out like they were last week’s kitty litter. It pains me to witness such rampant cropping with so little regard for the consequences – especially since I know how potentially devastating it is to a photo. What really makes...
backcountrygallery.com
In addition, it really looks like it might be a touch backfoused to me. It's tough to tell for sure, but I think the grass in the water behind the birds look sharper than the birds. Any areas that are out of focus tend to look noisier than the sharp areas. When you're shooting higher ISOs, anytime the subject isn't tack-sharp it'll look worse. Despite the fact that I had to crop the ISO 6400 shot below to DX from the D850, because it was perfectly sharp on the face I was able to use it after some noise reduction.
You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.
Finally, ISO 6400 really is the high-end for the Z7 IMO. So, you're also at what I consider the upper acceptable limit for ISO - combined with cropping and potentially a touch of back focus, this looks about right.
BillW
Well-known member
Interesting scene. And there are some stilts with the sandhills.
What focus area were you using? Any chance it was on the grass behind the sandhills in the first image?
I don’t know the Tamron lens. Do you normally need to stop down for sharpness (or perhaps in the first image for DOF)? If not, you might have shot it wide open. Is that f6.3? If you don’t need f9 (and if the shutter speed is enough), you’d get another stop of light and be able to reduce your ISO to 3200 by going wide open. That would help on noise.
I use my Z7 at ISOs up to 6400 where needed. Prefer 3200 and lower if I have enough light. But I have a number of images taken at 6400 that I like a lot. I normally process them with Topaz DeNoise AI. If the noise is really bad (and the amount of noise can vary, even at the same ISO, with different images), I sometimes run the image through DxO Photolab and use Prime noise reduction or Deep Prime noise reduction first. Then export to Photoshop and run DeNoise AI. Sometimes that does a decent job — not perfect, but can give me an image I like.
Of course, you could always get a 600 mm f4 prime lens for more light. But they are expensive and heavy.
What focus area were you using? Any chance it was on the grass behind the sandhills in the first image?
I don’t know the Tamron lens. Do you normally need to stop down for sharpness (or perhaps in the first image for DOF)? If not, you might have shot it wide open. Is that f6.3? If you don’t need f9 (and if the shutter speed is enough), you’d get another stop of light and be able to reduce your ISO to 3200 by going wide open. That would help on noise.
I use my Z7 at ISOs up to 6400 where needed. Prefer 3200 and lower if I have enough light. But I have a number of images taken at 6400 that I like a lot. I normally process them with Topaz DeNoise AI. If the noise is really bad (and the amount of noise can vary, even at the same ISO, with different images), I sometimes run the image through DxO Photolab and use Prime noise reduction or Deep Prime noise reduction first. Then export to Photoshop and run DeNoise AI. Sometimes that does a decent job — not perfect, but can give me an image I like.
Of course, you could always get a 600 mm f4 prime lens for more light. But they are expensive and heavy.
Oops - I somehow missed F/9 - I agree with Bill, unless you need to stop down o F/9 for sharpness, there's no way I'd use it in a situation like that. Again, assuming you have to crop, the birds were far enough away that F/6.3 would provide more than enough DoF.
jas2go
New member
Thank you so much Steve. I am going out again next week and will practice some more. I will use you suggestions. I will also limit ISO in camera so it won't go to 6400. I usually use spot focus but may have tried the small wide area AF-S. I did the last time I went out and shot at another refuge and it worked great on the flying swans and ducks. I don't know why I shot at a higher shutter speed. I think I was excited which I usually am. Practice, practice, practice! Again, thank you for your help.
Jane
Jane
jas2go
New member
I really need to spell check. Sheesh!
Autocorrect does it - it's happened to me too
Thern
Well-known member
Perhaps a real TAMRON lens?
Sorry. I couldn't resist.
Well we don’t have to wonder anymore wether a Z7 is feminin or masculin.
Thern
Well-known member
All I can recommend is to shoot as lean as possible in this kind of lightingconditions, meaning the largest possible aperture, the slowest possible shutterspeed and as a result the lowest possible ISO setting for that particular scenario.
You ask about lenses, but noise is a property of the camera NOT the lens.
The lens may ‘push’ you faster into the use of high ISOs when it’s not ‘fast enough’ but that’s it.
Question...
Looking at your second shot with bright reflective water and a bright sky (btw very difficult lighting for the camera) did you push the exposure in post?
(I know it shouldn’t be really necessairy with a mirrorless, but I’ve done it myself too)
If so you’d crank up noise too...
You ask about lenses, but noise is a property of the camera NOT the lens.
The lens may ‘push’ you faster into the use of high ISOs when it’s not ‘fast enough’ but that’s it.
Question...
Looking at your second shot with bright reflective water and a bright sky (btw very difficult lighting for the camera) did you push the exposure in post?
(I know it shouldn’t be really necessairy with a mirrorless, but I’ve done it myself too)
If so you’d crank up noise too...
Were these images cropped? Cropping is the same as increasing ISO because noise in relative terms is bigger in the frame and it reduces the benefit of downsizing.
Did you need an exposure adjustment during post processing? An exposure adjustment is the same as increasing ISO
Did you brighten shadows in post processing? Brightening shadows is the same as increasing ISO.
Is your camera set to use Active D-lighting? ADL should be set for Off or Low. Other settings can increase noise.
Even if you have a noisy image, downsizing for posting here should eliminate almost all visible noise. These images have far more noise than is typical at ISO 6400 without something else going on in handling the image after capture. Using f/9 by itself would not add noise but it may force an ISO that is higher than needed. It looks to me like you have other factors that are adding 2-3 stops of noise to the image - equivalent to ISO 25,000 or more.
There are other editing steps that can increase the apparent impact of noise and make it more visible in a final image. Increasing clarity, using high levels of sharpening, and increasing contrast can make a difference by making noise more visible.
As far as settings are concerned, I would not use f/9 or higher unless you are trying to include more DOF from the landscape. With that lens, f/6.3 is fine at duck. F/7.1 or f/8 may be slightly sharper, but you can't afford the loss of light when light levels are low. Even at f/6.3, you have plenty of DOF.
An upper limit of ISO 6400 is fine. At that level, noise will be modest if other factors are controlled.
If ISO 6400 and f/6.3 does not provide a fast enough shutter speed for birds in flight, consider making a different type of image. Use a longer exposure to intentionally blur your image. You can make intentionally blurred images, blurred multiple exposures, and other types of creative images.
Did you need an exposure adjustment during post processing? An exposure adjustment is the same as increasing ISO
Did you brighten shadows in post processing? Brightening shadows is the same as increasing ISO.
Is your camera set to use Active D-lighting? ADL should be set for Off or Low. Other settings can increase noise.
Even if you have a noisy image, downsizing for posting here should eliminate almost all visible noise. These images have far more noise than is typical at ISO 6400 without something else going on in handling the image after capture. Using f/9 by itself would not add noise but it may force an ISO that is higher than needed. It looks to me like you have other factors that are adding 2-3 stops of noise to the image - equivalent to ISO 25,000 or more.
There are other editing steps that can increase the apparent impact of noise and make it more visible in a final image. Increasing clarity, using high levels of sharpening, and increasing contrast can make a difference by making noise more visible.
As far as settings are concerned, I would not use f/9 or higher unless you are trying to include more DOF from the landscape. With that lens, f/6.3 is fine at duck. F/7.1 or f/8 may be slightly sharper, but you can't afford the loss of light when light levels are low. Even at f/6.3, you have plenty of DOF.
An upper limit of ISO 6400 is fine. At that level, noise will be modest if other factors are controlled.
If ISO 6400 and f/6.3 does not provide a fast enough shutter speed for birds in flight, consider making a different type of image. Use a longer exposure to intentionally blur your image. You can make intentionally blurred images, blurred multiple exposures, and other types of creative images.
jas2go
New member
Thank you Eric. I’m learning a lot from you guys.