Z8 AF 'handoff' focusing process

[mrpicasso]

I read in Steve's The Ultimate Nikon Z8 & Z9 Setup Guide For Wildlife Photography for my Z8 with firmware 2.0 about using Auto AF with bird subject detection as being the most likley setup for tack sharp focussing n a bird in flight. I have also followed the example of setting the buttons F1 for 3D AF and F2 for AF-area mode per pages 442 and 444. I think that gives me the options of quickly changing the focus modes to what is needed in the situation. However, I'm thinking I'm missing some key step given what happens when trying to photograph great egrets that take flight. When the egret is standing motionless the AF subject detection kind of bounces around latching onto the head and the eye quickly moving between the two despite the bird not moving (my steadiness in holding the AF (medium) area over the head is the possible reason for the jumping around. As I see the bird begin to take off I smash the shutter release and then pan as the bird takes flight endeavoring to keep the bird and wide spread wings in the view finder. Teh shots I end up with are mostly out of focus. It seems something is missing on why the focus doesn't follow the bird that it has solid lock on before flight turns into out of focus shots as it moves from directly in front of me to heading off down the river. I end up with hundreds of blurry shots. I have held down the AF On back button that I have set for BBAF, a feature that I had been using on my Z50 (before I upgraded to the Z8). On the Z50, pressing the BBAF button always seemed to refocus on whatever was in the focus area, but on the Z8 the BBAF button seems to be ignored as I pan with AF bird detection. Should I be pressing another button to switch the focus mode to something other than AF as the bird takes off? What is the relationship between BBAF and the AF bird detection functions?
I have attached a representative series of shots (they appear to be over exposing the white bird, but I think that's another issue - or maybe not?) that shows good focus on the stationary bird, but the first, and subsequent shots of it taking off, the camera has focused on the river despite being on AF bird detection. How can I prevent that?

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[JAJohnson]

Before thinking about handoff, let's start at the beginning.

I assume you're using AF-C focus mode. You mentioned holding the "AF (medium) area" over the head. Which AF area mode were you using: Wide-S or L, Wide-C1 or C2, 3D, or Auto area? Next, in the custom settings menu, I assume a6 is set to Shutter/AF-ON and AF subject detection is set to Birds. If this is all correct for how your Z8 is configured, when you press the shutter button, AF should lock on to the bird's head or eye.

As the bird begins to fly, I assume you're handing off to another AF area mode, perhaps 3D? Which button are you using for the handoff? If you're following Steve's guide (pages 442 - 444), that button would be Fn2. If so, AF should not focus on other things that aren't the bird. You still might get a few shots where the head/eye are a bit out-of-focus, but not by much.

You also mentioned using BBF. In the Custom Controls (shooting) menu what AF area mode do you have AF-ON set to?

In order to understand this better your answers would be helpful. It would also be helpful if you shared the playback images of these photos from your camera or using NX Studio. That way the focus areas on these photos can be seen. That would help clarify exactly what's happening.

You'll get good advice here, but you'll need to provide more info.

 

[Steve]

Long-necked birds are the bane of Subject Detection systems

One critical thing to remember is that Subject Detection isn't always the best answer for every situation, nor are handoffs. As I mention in the book, if Subject Detection is not sticking to the subject well - or stuck in the wrong place - turn it off and stick to one of the Wide AF areas. You'll want to use the smallest you can successfully keep on the subject. Also, only handoff if Subject Detection is reliably sticking to the part of the subject you want.

In this case, I would turn off Subject Detection, switch to Wide Small, position it so I wasn't going to cut off the back of the bird and then do my best to keep the AF area on his face as he flew. (I know this works because I've faced the same scenario before )

 

[ajrmd]

Steve is absolutely right though I found my Canon gear handled long neck birds better than Nikon. From the images you posted, it's impossible to make any assumptions as not only is the metadata missing, but the first image is in focus followed by some other oof images which appear to be shot at a different time/FL/perspective. One thing I notice about every AF system that I've used, Canon, Nikon, Sony, is they generally don't do so well with "blast offs". The AF systems seem to lag and not detect the bird movements as quickly as one would like. Add in the reaction time of the photographer to react and initiate panning, and it compounds the issue. Changing the AF sensitivities seems to help, though depending on the distance and subject, these can be extremely challenging shots.

 

[mrpicasso]

@JAJohnson Thank you for the prompts to provide the settings I used. Here are the answers to your questions with some comments:
Which AF area mode were you using: Wide-S or L, Wide-C1 or C2, 3D, or Auto area? I was using Wide-S with subject detection set to 'Birds' and it does a rather good job of finding the eye and head for at least few frames so I can get some sharp images of the static bird (although as Steve mentions, it does seem to bounce around a lot and has trouble sticking to the eye on such long-necked birds).

Next, in the custom settings menu, I assume a6 is set to Shutter/AF-ON and AF subject detection is set to Birds. If this is all correct for how your Z8 is configured, when you press the shutter button, AF should lock on to the bird's head or eye. a6 'AF activation' is set to OFF. I have the 'AF-ON' button set to AF-ON so I can use BBAF to trigger the focus rather than the half-press shutter button. I inherited that scheme from my Z50, but I wonder, is it an outdated habit that isn't needed with the Z8 AF and subject detection capabilities?

As the bird begins to fly, I assume you're handing off to another AF area mode, perhaps 3D? Which button are you using for the handoff? If you're following Steve's guide (pages 442 - 444), that button would be Fn2. If so, AF should not focus on other things that aren't the bird. You still might get a few shots where the head/eye are a bit out-of-focus, but not by much. As the bird takes off, I habitually press BBAF and then I'll press Fn1 which is set to [3D] or I press Fn2 which is set to 'AF W-C2' (W-C2 is set as 13x11) depending upon how well I think I'll be able to track the bird and how much time I have. I don't recall either one being better for keeping the great egret in focus.
If I do have the presence of mind to anticipate the takeoff (usually after getting enough images of the static bird and I'm just waiting for the action) I'll press the 'DISP' button which is programmed as 'Recall shooting functions (hold)' with 'Shooting mode' checked and set to 'M', 'Shutter speed' checked and set to '1/3200', 'Aperture' checked and set to '6.3', 'AF-area mode' checked and set to 'AF W-C2', 'AF subject detection options' checked and set to 'Birds', 'Focus tracking with lock-on' checked and set to 'Blocked shot AF response' level '4', and 'Subject motion' Steady', 'Release mode' checked and set to 'Continuous high-speed 20' My thinking is that those settings give bird detection more area to work with.


You also mentioned using BBF. In the Custom Controls (shooting) menu what AF area mode do you have AF-ON set to? I have the 'AF-ON' button set to AF-ON

In order to understand this better your answers would be helpful. It would also be helpful if you shared the playback images of these photos from your camera or using NX Studio.That way the focus areas on these photos can be seen. That would help clarify exactly what's happening. I do not know how to capture and share the view I see when taking the photos. With the 'Playback display options' 'Add info' 'Focus point' checked, along with 'Additional photo info' 'Exposure info', 'Shooting data' and 'Overview' checked, and all the 'Detailed shooting data' options checked, I only see the small red box that I guess is the actual area focused in the final image and not the initial AF setting box which I think should be a larger focus area box. Is there a way to see what the focus area settings were when the photo was taken, or do I just have to rely on my memory for that?

@Steve based on your comments, I went out this afternoon and luckily found a great egret to try bird subject detection turned on and then turned off. Because I don't know how to save what I see in the view finder, I have attached photos of the back of the camera and from NX Studio for a couple of represented images to show the focus area. Image DSC_1305 shows the stationary bird in focus when bird subject detection was active. Then DSC_1306 shows as the bird took off and I pressed Fn2 (AF W-C2), that even with bird detection on, the background grass became the focus point. That is consistent with your comment that long-necked birds are a challenge for bird detection. Then I turned off bird detection and tracked down the great egret again. It was probably tired of my pointing my camera at it, because as soon as I saw it, it took off and I was only able to capture it in flight as images DSC_1328 and DSC_1329. With bird detection turned off and AF Wide-S as the AF mode, despite pressing BBAF with the bird's head in the focus area, it was still out of focus. So I'm not sure what settings and techniques to use to keep birds like the great egret in focus.

 

[JAJohnson]

@mrpicasso, Thanks for sharing more of your photos and providing answers to my questions. I have one more question for you: On the last photo you shared (DSC_1329_BOC), it's difficult to tell for sure, but it doesn't look like anything within the AF box (or outside of it but near it) is in focus. Do you remember if the focus box turned green when you snapped this image?

I can see on the others in which the bird isn't in focus that the grass behind it or near it is probably in focus. Photographing a bird which is challenging to capture and having that bird in front of a busy background means you're pushing AF hard. Rippling water in the background doesn't make it easier, either. Have you been able to photograph it with the sky as a background?

 

[mrpicasso]

@JAJohnson I do not recall if the focus box was green or not. In thinking about other pictures, I recall very few with a green box, even ones that draw a very small square around the eye. Those boxes are often white even though the eye is in focus. I've not had the great egret fly in front of a clean background like the sky. I have captured hawks and swallows in front of the sky and I'm astonished at the speed and accuracy of the bird detection. So I guess my expectations were increased when I turned toward what appeared to be an easy all white bird against a dark background. Thank you for the reply. I'll conclude that I'm using appropriate settings and techniques and probably just need more practice and clearer subjects to use bird detection with great egrets.

 

[Cameron T]

I feel like something is wrong here. Try putting normal af on your shutter button (turning a6 on) and hand off to the back button, or f2.

See if your hit rate goes up.

A white box to me means af isn't actually engaged, as far as I can remember without getting my camera out.

 

[JAJohnson]

@JAJohnson I do not recall if the focus box was green or not. In thinking about other pictures, I recall very few with a green box, even ones that draw a very small square around the eye. Those boxes are often white even though the eye is in focus. I've not had the great egret fly in front of a clean background like the sky. I have captured hawks and swallows in front of the sky and I'm astonished at the speed and accuracy of the bird detection. So I guess my expectations were increased when I turned toward what appeared to be an easy all white bird against a dark background. Thank you for the reply. I'll conclude that I'm using appropriate settings and techniques and probably just need more practice and clearer subjects to use bird detection with great egrets.

One thing to check in your settings: You've probably done this, but be certain that in the a11 settings that AF-C in-focus display is set to ON. This ensures that the focus point is displayed in green when the subject is in focus. When you take the photo, you'll have a visual indicator immediately of whether the subject is in focus.

 

[JAJohnson]

A white box to me means af isn't actually engaged, as far as I can remember without getting my camera out.

I have configured my cameras to use the half-depressed shutter button, AF-ON (Wide C1), or Fn1 (3D tracking) to focus. When subject detection is on, the white box is displayed when the camera sees a subject, but no button is pressed. When any of those buttons are pressed the white box turns green.

 

[Cameron T]

I have configured my cameras to use the half-depressed shutter button, AF-ON (Wide C1), or Fn1 (3D tracking) to focus. When subject detection is on, the white box is displayed when the camera sees a subject, but no button is pressed. When any of those buttons are pressed the white box turns green.

Yeah, I'm just going off his post where he says " I do not recall if the focus box was green or not. In thinking about other pictures, I recall very few with a green box, even ones that draw a very small square around the eye. Those boxes are often white even though the eye is in focus"

That reads to me as he doesn't actually have af engaged when he's shooting, which is why I think something is very wrong with his set up (either user error, or camera).

I use af on with the shutter in auto area, 3d (with af on) on the back button, and other modes on fn buttons. Haven't updated for v5 yet, so that's partially likely to change.

 

[Steve]

@Steve based on your comments, I went out this afternoon and luckily found a great egret to try bird subject detection turned on and then turned off. Because I don't know how to save what I see in the view finder, I have attached photos of the back of the camera and from NX Studio for a couple of represented images to show the focus area. Image DSC_1305 shows the stationary bird in focus when bird subject detection was active. Then DSC_1306 shows as the bird took off and I pressed Fn2 (AF W-C2), that even with bird detection on, the background grass became the focus point. That is consistent with your comment that long-necked birds are a challenge for bird detection. Then I turned off bird detection and tracked down the great egret again. It was probably tired of my pointing my camera at it, because as soon as I saw it, it took off and I was only able to capture it in flight as images DSC_1328 and DSC_1329. With bird detection turned off and AF Wide-S as the AF mode, despite pressing BBAF with the bird's head in the focus area, it was still out of focus. So I'm not sure what settings and techniques to use to keep birds like the great egret in focus.

Based on the slight motion blur I see in the background, I'd say that takeoff was really fast/unexpected and the camera never locked on. Also, although Wide S is usually a good choice, keep in mind that anytime an AF area sees a lot of background with very little subject it's apt to favor the background (especially if the subject itself is in motion).

Also, and I talk about this in my books, the camera needs to establish a solid lock before you have any chance of it tracking. If that solid lock was not established, the chances are low that the camera would maintain the lock. I think this is the case here.

Finally, keep in mind that photographer skill also comes into play. A frequent mistake is to think that just because an AF area is on a particular spot, that spot is always going to be in perfect focus, but the truth is it's not a guarantee. If the photographer isn't keeping the subject steady and more or less in place in the viewfinder, it's difficult for the camera to secure a lock and it will instead go for something easier - like the background.

 

[JAJohnson]

Based on the slight motion blur I see in the background, I'd say that takeoff was really fast/unexpected and the camera never locked on. Also, although Wide S is usually a good choice, keep in mind that anytime an AF area sees a lot of background with very little subject it's apt to favor the background (especially if the subject itself is in motion).

Also, and I talk about this in my books, the camera needs to establish a solid lock before you have any chance of it tracking. If that solid lock was not established, the chances are low that the camera would maintain the lock. I think this is the case here.

Finally, keep in mind that photographer skill also comes into play. A frequent mistake is to think that just because an AF area is on a particular spot, that spot is always going to be in perfect focus, but the truth is it's not a guarantee. If the photographer isn't keeping the subject steady and more or less in place in the viewfinder, it's difficult for the camera to secure a lock and it will instead go for something easier - like the background.

A good lesson for us all.

 

[mrpicasso]

Thanks @Cameron T , @JAJohnson , and @Steve for the comments and suggestions. I'm concluding the main factors at play for me is the complex background and "long-necked bird" issue, combined with the AF not locking onto the eye before or during the sequence.
I reached those conclusions from today's shooting session when I found the great egret again. I took some take off shots with AF-On set to the shutter button (a6 ON as @Cameron T and @JAJohnson mentioned), confirmed that a11 was set for AF-C in-focus display ON, and then endeavored to keep the bird in the frame and the head in the AF area as @Steve recommended. I also took note to look for the green boxes. I saw that as the bird stood still, the white boxes became green when the shutter button was pressed as @JAJohnson said. At other times it remained a white box presumably meaning the AF hadn't locked on.
When the bird took off, the AF box was not near the head for the first few frames and the eye was out of focus while the background was sharp. Then for a few frames I got the head in place and the green square appeared giving shots with a nice sharp eye! But then my panning and steadiness were off resulting in a few more out of focus shots. Luckily, this bird then flew in front of the dark shadow under an overpass and the background became a uniform dark field. And as suggested by @JAJohnson to see if I could get the bird in front of a uniform sky, the AF detection locked onto the eye and there was a whole series of sharp shots, even with the head outside the red AF box shown in NX Capture.
Now my next challenge is to keep the whole bird in the frame including the extended wings, while also keeping the head in the AF area.
If I'm lucky and the bird flies in front of a uniform background, the AF WC2 works remarkably well to find the eye. However, with a complex background I think I'll need to anticipate the direction of flight and position the AF Wide box on the side where I think the head will be. Then as it flies and I pan, I should have a better chance for decent framing and a sharp eye in the smaller AF box. Of course, those are all things that @Steve mentions yet they didn't click for me (pun intended ) because I was so impressed at the automagically way bird detection found the eye of static birds. I just figured it would do the same thing with flying birds.
Thanks again, all.

 

[Steve]

Of course, those are all things that @Steve mentions yet they didn't click for me (pun intended ) because I was so impressed at the automagically way bird detection found the eye of static birds. I just figured it would do the same thing with flying birds.
Thanks again, all.

Another tip - the better you are at keeping the bird in position in the frame, the better subject detection is at staying on it.

 

[fcotterill]

There is this more technical discussion about the Hybrid AF/ Handover Autofocus methods and particularly Focus Persistence

Nikon Z9/8 Hybrid Handover Question

I want to confirm this. (in Ver. 3.10) BBF will ONLY override/hand over from the shutter button. When pressing any FN buttons set to a different AF Area mode or AF Area mode + AF ON, Pressing BBF or half-press shutter will NOT override the FN button. In other words, the way to hand it over is...

bcgforums.com

 

[Geoff_G]

For a short time a pair of Canadian Geese were browsing in the nearby farm field and I can "verify" (lol) everything Steve mentioned. Getting focus on the eyes was mostly miss with just a few hits until I narrowed down the AF area. Then it had no trouble finding the eye (as long as I could keep the head in/near the AF area).
Cycle AF is our friend...

 

[mrpicasso]

There is this more technical discussion about the Hybrid AF/ Handover Autofocus methods and particularly Focus Persistence

Nikon Z9/8 Hybrid Handover Question

I want to confirm this. (in Ver. 3.10) BBF will ONLY override/hand over from the shutter button. When pressing any FN buttons set to a different AF Area mode or AF Area mode + AF ON, Pressing BBF or half-press shutter will NOT override the FN button. In other words, the way to hand it over is...

bcgforums.com

Thank you for the reference to that other thread. It has helped clarify the feature priorities/sequences and the concept of 'focus persistence' which to me is a clearer concept than 'focus handoff'. It has also triggered a reread of Steve's sections on those topics in both his Ultimate Nikon Z8 & Z9 Setup Guide For Wildlife Photography and Secrets To The Nikon Autofocus System: Mirrorless Edition. The key for me will now be to decide what buttons to assign to which functions and then develop the muscle memory and technique to apply them appropriately for the situation. I guess I need to get out there and take more pictures

 

[macwalter]

Looking at the photos one thing I notice is a tack sharp background meaning the AF went to the background and at least for me when this happens I have to let off the AF button and refocus using somthing like wide small or maybe wide large. I have found that 3d and auto are not as reliable with cluttering backgrounds. I have often made the mistake of hitting the shutter too soon and hence the camera takes a ride to the background and tends to stay there. I think Steve’s advice of pre focusing close to the distance before shooting really helps. If I were in that situation I would use a small 1x1 with bird ID ( with the option to disable as Steve mentioned in his setup) with f1 programmed to wide large as a handoff. I find it more reliable and large enough in most cases to track a large bird like a great egret. I find myself switching off on various modes depending on the situation but as I have small hands I like to keep AF modes with AF-on for the fn1-2 buttons. Also egrets are long necked birds and unless you can get on the head you may not get as good a result.