Z8/Z9 with diving birds

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Matt N

Matt N

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How does the Z8 or Z9 do with diving birds with the Bird AF? Specifically, Kingfishers or Terns, where you lose sight of the bird for a second then want to capture it exiting the water with a fish? I imagine Kingfishers would be the more challenging of those examples. Any special settings or AF areas that people have found to be successful with that? In my case, I'd be using the 800pf with the Z8. I know there were a couple of older posts about that, but that was pre-Bird AF and not specific to the Z8/Z9.
 
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My experience with vertical diving birds, think pelicans, common terns has been generally very good. I've used AA and Wide S/L, blocked shot set to 4 with high success rates capturing the bird through the dive, splash, and recovery. In contrast, my experience with birds who move through a catch, think eagles/osprey has been poor. The camera seems to easily track and follow the bird in the sky and as it descends towards the water, though once it enters the more horizontal strike position the camera loses af capture inexplicably (in spite of the af point clearly appearing on the bird) for 6-7 frames and then it regains focus and tracks accurately again beginning a few frames after the strike. I've had this occur repeatedly, with all AF modes and settings. I've posted some of these sequences at BCG and elsewhere without any valuable feedback and Nikon has been completely unresponsive. I'm headed to Conowingo again in November and Florida in December and remain cautiously optimistic.

What I am hoping to find are feeding frenzies with multiple photo worthy strikes rather than the 3-4 a session scenario. Having a limited number of photo worthy strikes a day with all of the key frames OOF is not only extremely frustrating, it doesn't afford an opportunity to dial in other settings. My recent experience (described in another thread) where the observed AF point in Wide S kept oscillating off the eye far away onto the body of a static bird was not reassuring. Hopefully Nikon will release an improved FW by then.

In terms of KF's these are challenging bird strikes to capture. Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with the Z8/Z9 for these birds, though have shot them successfully from blinds using Canon gear. Perhaps others can chime in here as to whether they pre-focus on the anticipated strike area, or use different techniques they with the Nikon bodies.
 
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ajrmd said:
My experience with vertical diving birds, think pelicans, common terns has been generally very good. I've used AA and Wide S/L, blocked shot set to 4 with high success rates capturing the bird through the dive, splash, and recovery. In contrast, my experience with birds who move through a catch, think eagles/osprey has been poor. The camera seems to easily track and follow the bird in the sky and as it descends towards the water, though once it enters the more horizontal strike position the camera loses af capture inexplicably (in spite of the af point clearly appearing on the bird) for 6-7 frames and then it regains focus and tracks accurately again beginning a few frames after the strike. I've had this occur repeatedly, with all AF modes and settings. I've posted some of these sequences at BCG and elsewhere without any valuable feedback and Nikon has been completely unresponsive. I'm headed to Conowingo again in November and Florida in December and remain cautiously optimistic.

What I am hoping to find are feeding frenzies with multiple photo worthy strikes rather than the 3-4 a session scenario. Having a limited number of photo worthy strikes a day with all of the key frames OOF is not only extremely frustrating, it doesn't afford an opportunity to dial in other settings. My recent experience (described in another thread) where the observed AF point in Wide S kept oscillating off the eye far away onto the body of a static bird was not reassuring. Hopefully Nikon will release an improved FW by then.

In terms of KF's these are challenging bird strikes to capture. Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with the Z8/Z9 for these birds, though have shot them successfully from blinds using Canon gear. Perhaps others can chime in here as to whether they pre-focus on the anticipated strike area, or use different techniques they with the Nikon bodies.
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This is very informative and helpful. I’m curious to know how it goes at Conowingo.
 
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I've been pleasantly surprised with the Z8's acquisition and trackability while photographing terns on a cloudy day. Better than my D850. A couple samples below taken with the z8, 180-600, wide area auto focus & subject detection. Taken a week ago at Elkhorn Slough in California. The entire series from acquisition to dive and exit were in focus at 20 FPS. Fairly heavy crops because the bigger problem is, well, me! I'm not great at tracking the dives while holding more of the bird in the frame. Hopefully that'll get better with time and effort because I really want a high resolution entry shot with the mirror reflection like the one attached.

Where performance struggles is when the birds come straight at me either at the end of an abortive dive (which can be a cool capture if they roll over) or coming out of the water after a dive. I suspect that this may have more to do with the 180-600's known slower focusing performance than the camera, but I'm not sure. Maybe someone with more experience can chime in on that because I'm curious.


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BradleyD said:
I've been pleasantly surprised with the Z8's acquisition and trackability while photographing terns on a cloudy day. Better than my D850. A couple samples below taken with the z8, 180-600, wide area auto focus & subject detection. Taken a week ago at Elkhorn Slough in California. The entire series from acquisition to dive and exit were in focus at 20 FPS. Fairly heavy crops because the bigger problem is, well, me! I'm not great at tracking the dives while holding more of the bird in the frame. Hopefully that'll get better with time and effort because I really want a high resolution entry shot with the mirror reflection like the one attached.

Where performance struggles is when the birds come straight at me either at the end of an abortive dive (which can be a cool capture if they roll over) or coming out of the water after a dive. I suspect that this may have more to do with the 180-600's known slower focusing performance than the camera, but I'm not sure. Maybe someone with more experience can chime in on that because I'm curious.


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Very cool shots! Yeah, getting the bird exiting with a fish is my goal and a dream come true.
 
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Birds, or other things, coming at the camera have been the bane of AF systems for years. If your subject is coming at you that is the most challenging for the AF system, be it dslr or mirrorless. The best bird tracking I've had has been without a distinct BG. When there is a BG with any texture (trees, etc) the Z9 af seems to jump to it over the subject. One of my favorite osprey diving locations has confused me for years (both D850, D6 and Z9). The birds will come around a river bend several hundred feet away, af finds and locks. Osprey flying toward me at a bit of an angle and af tracking is doing well. At about 150 for some reason unknown to me, the af drops the osprey even though it is getting bigger in the VF (which you would think would make it easier to track). I can't regain af until the bird is almost by me. It's a river lined with trees so it seems to like the trees. When shooting with more of a water BG, af seems stickier. With the Z9 I use wide area large with handoff to either Auto or 3D. With the D850/D6 I'll use group af which has a true close subject priority. I think if Nikon were to include a true closest-subject priority addition to the existing af modes (some or all) it would be an improvement.
 
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BradleyD said:
I've been pleasantly surprised with the Z8's acquisition and trackability while photographing terns on a cloudy day. Better than my D850. A couple samples below taken with the z8, 180-600, wide area auto focus & subject detection. Taken a week ago at Elkhorn Slough in California. The entire series from acquisition to dive and exit were in focus at 20 FPS. Fairly heavy crops because the bigger problem is, well, me! I'm not great at tracking the dives while holding more of the bird in the frame. Hopefully that'll get better with time and effort because I really want a high resolution entry shot with the mirror reflection like the one attached.

Where performance struggles is when the birds come straight at me either at the end of an abortive dive (which can be a cool capture if they roll over) or coming out of the water after a dive. I suspect that this may have more to do with the 180-600's known slower focusing performance than the camera, but I'm not sure. Maybe someone with more experience can chime in on that because I'm curious.


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I think a lot of the issue is how quick the bird exits the water. Terns and Kingfishers hit and are out fast. Osprey hit but sometimes it takes them a few seconds to get the fish under control before they come out, longer if it's a bigger fish. I really haven't had much difficulty getting them coming out as long as my focus is close to where they go in. If the focus point goes way off after they hit the water, it does take longer to get back onto the bird coming out. I pretty much only use the 800pf for this so I can't say if the 180-600 is worse and if so by how much. I have noticed the 180-600 does seem a bit slower to acquire focus on the rare occasions I use it.
 
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Matt N said:
This is very informative and helpful. I’m curious to know how it goes at Conowingo.
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As I am. Was there twice this month and the strike action was so slow, that not only could I have read a few novels, I could have written some too. Here is one example of what I am talking about. It's a long sequence of an Osprey diving for a strike. All of the images from the top of the dive until just before the tangential strike are in focus and then as usual (and I've tried AA, Wide S/M/L, Dynamic S/L etc.) the camera loses focus (in this case for around 8 images) and then regains it after the strike.

Please, this is for information only and is not designed to launch another discussion re: the AF. Been there, done that, no real helpful replies, and nothing has changes. Am still hoping for a FW fix.
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So this is the last image of the dive that is in focus...
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Where did you go AF, somewhere in front of the bird and why?
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Next image in the series, still OOF. I won't bore you with the intervening 5 of the strike which are OOF. The AF point still indicates subject capture while it is clear from review of the images that it has lost proper AF. Of note, the focus priority is set on "release" so that may have been operant here though the questions remain why did it lose AF in this light/subject size/setting and why does the AF point still indicate being over the subject? Also, it is important to note these are full sized images, not cropped, not DX, the subject has not moved appreciably in the frame, and there aren't a whole lot of distractions.
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So, now we've arrived to the first image after the strike when AF has been reacquired. The rest of the images in this series, including the fly-away, some 50-60 shots were all in focus. The vexing thing about this is that it happens time and time again with the Z8.
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ajrmd said:
As I am. Was there twice this month and the strike action was so slow, that not only could I have read a few novels, I could have written some too. Here is one example of what I am talking about. It's a long sequence of an Osprey diving for a strike. All of the images from the top of the dive until just before the tangential strike are in focus and then as usual (and I've tried AA, Wide S/M/L, Dynamic S/L etc.) the camera loses focus (in this case for around 8 images) and then regains it after the strike.

Please, this is for information only and is not designed to launch another discussion re: the AF. Been there, done that, no real helpful replies, and nothing has changes. Am still hoping for a FW fix. View attachment 99772So this is the last image of the dive that is in focus...View attachment 99773Where did you go AF, somewhere in front of the bird and why?View attachment 99774Next image in the series, still OOF. I won't bore you with the intervening 5 of the strike which are OOF. The AF point still indicates subject capture while it is clear from review of the images that it has lost proper AF. Of note, the focus priority is set on "release" so that may have been operant here though the questions remain why did it lose AF in this light/subject size/setting and why does the AF point still indicate being over the subject? Also, it is important to note these are full sized images, not cropped, not DX, the subject has not moved appreciably in the frame, and there aren't a whole lot of distractions.View attachment 99775So, now we've arrived to the first image after the strike when AF has been reacquired. The rest of the images in this series, including the fly-away, some 50-60 shots were all in focus. The vexing thing about this is that it happens time and time again with the Z8.View attachment 99776
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Thanks for the thorough explanation!
 
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Osprey have some unique diving traits, one of which is that they increase their dive speed somewhere between 10 and 4 feet above the water. The rate at which they change is too fast for the af system, by the time it detects the change and tries to compensate it often overshoots. This could explain why the water in front is the focus point. While in the case presented here it does not appear that the osprey has changed direction during it's dive, they are also very good at making changes to their trajectory as their target moves. I've been chasing osprey for over 10 years with a D500, D5, D6, D810, D850's and Z9's and a variety of glass and I do say with confidence that I've gotten more in focus shots with the Z9 than anything else I've used. A lot of my problem is a lack of opportunity. The local herring runs have been declining 90% per year for the last 7 years to the point that only a handful are coming upstream where there used to be almost a million. Lack of practice is my biggest problem, though I always found close subject priority to be very helpful.
 
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I’ve had good luck with terns but they often get away form me at the point of contact with the water but if my focus is close I can usually get on them leaving fairly quickly. I haven’t had many good chances for osprey and eagles fishing but I did get and osprey getting a fish a few months ago but it was actually too close for my rig. 600mm so the wings were clipped in many shots. But I did get it hitting and coming out of the water.
 
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macwalter said:
Do they all have to be in focus, I wonder. Sometimes you only get one or two. Especially with something as fast as a diving bird from a perch.
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One or two would be a large improvement in my mind!!. I have been shooting Kingfishers for 2-3yrs now. Never once have I got birds that are leaving a perch in focus, UNLESS they stay in the original focal plane.

I usually use pre-capture .

I have tried many, if not all focus modes. I just don't think my Z9 is capable of this task. Don't get me wrong, I love my Z9.

I have , after previous posts about this, received advice. But when I have asked the advisors to show examples they don't seem to materialise!

So would someone please show examples of a reasonably fast bird leaving a perch and staying in focus, after leaving the original focus plane.

If they would add the settings , it would be much appreciated.!! ( I would like to learn )
 
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The reality as I see it is unless you are already shooting as it leaves the perch your reflexes are not going to be fast enough no matter what camera you use. I have photographed kingfishers diving from a wire in Brazil and never could get it as it left the perch. It would have already travelled quite a ways before I got off shots. I did get some nice photos of a bat falcon in Brazil and a prairie falcon in Bosque. I was really far away though so I wouldn’t call them studio quality. The prairie was with the 400f4.5 with a 2x tc and the Bat was with the 100-400 with a 1.4tc. I did get a sequence both times.Nikon z8. The prairie shots are too big
 
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macwalter said:
View attachment 100150View attachment 100151The reality as I see it is unless you are already shooting as it leaves the perch your reflexes are not going to be fast enough no matter what camera you use. I have photographed kingfishers diving from a wire in Brazil and never could get it as it left the perch. It would have already travelled quite a ways before I got off shots. I did get some nice photos of a bat falcon in Brazil and a prairie falcon in Bosque. I was really far away though so I wouldn’t call them studio quality. The prairie was with the 400f4.5 with a 2x tc and the Bat was with the 100-400 with a 1.4tc. I did get a sequence both times.Nikon z8. The prairie shots are too big
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That is why I use pre-capture!
 
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I have had relatively very good success with Ospreys and Terns, both diving and coming out of water shots, using Z9. Of course, there are times when out of focus shots are more than in focus shots depending on what's behind the bird or how far away the bird is. I have collected a lot of stats with Osprey dive and varying camera settings, hopefully one day I'll post the analytics here in the forum. Terns, with their white feathers, easier to track than an Osprey at the same distance. Kingfisher is a different story; they are small and mostly hunt from low perch far away giving one little time to react. I prefer hand holding my lens and camera and thus by the time I notice a Kingfisher leaving its perch it is usually too late to lift the camera and track it. However, from time to time I did manage track a Kingfisher either down to water or when they come out but that's few and far between. Tracking a Peregrine Falcon to the point when it catches its prey mid-air is equally difficult if not more.
 
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