Advice for buying a low light camera

[Rogereh]

Let me start my post by claiming that I am not a Professional shooter, but I’ve shot for money once upon a time. Now just for fun. I am also closing in on 75, so weight (and time) are becoming harder for me to deal with. I have been wanting a camera for shooting wildlife during those morning “just getting light” and “almost too dark to shoot” dusk lighting. I have been researching the internet, watching YouTube and the many blogs and forums available for research. I have some nice cameras (D850, D810, D500 and Z7) but although they take great photos, they just don’t seem adequate for those “not enough light to shoot” times at dawn and dusk. You know, when the critters are moving around.

What I have been able to determine (and afford) is a choice between a used D5 or a new Z6II. What I have not been able to determine is the Z6II that much better at low light than my Z7?? I want to stay with Nikon, not Sony or canon. I keep consider the D5 but I am uncomfortable with buying an ebay bargain for under $3000 which is my spending limit. I have been bamboozled before with ebay purchases so now I’m leery. Looking for advice, D5, Z6ii, or just keep shooting what I already have.

 

[Rassie]

In my view the two best Nikon cameras for low light are the D5 and Z6ii, in that order.
The D5 is better for fast-moving action wildlife photography. Its frame rate is better than the Z6ii, and its focus tracking is probably better as well.

If fast-moving action is not that important, the Z6ii would be a good bet as well.

Keep in mind though that both D5 and Z6ii have lower density sensors than the cameras you currently have so you won't be able to crop as much with these two.

 

[Viathelens]

I know the D5 was mentioned, but would there be any reason to get a D6 instead, given that budget is not an issue? Is the D5 better than the D6 or pretty much the same? I have the same issue that Rogereh does. I normally shoot wildlife with the D500 and, most recently, a 500PF lens.

 

[Steve]

Both the D5 and Z6ii are really good choices for low light, it really comes down to which type of camera gives you works best for your type of shooting. For action, a Z6ii is OK, but it's no D5. However, if you shoot more static stuff, I think the Z6ii and it's "all over the frame" AF system is a better choice. Of course, there's frame rates, buffers, EVF vs optical, etc etc to consider as well.

As for the D5 - check KEH or UsedPhotoPro - both offer a return period and are very reputable.

 

[Rogereh]

Mostly what I would like the camera for would be mammals, like deer feeding in a field behind our home. This morning I have a pair of foxes hunting in our back yard. I could barely see them at 5:45am so I didn't even consider grabbing a camera. I just got into the Z7 a few weeks ago and I'm happy with it mostly. I don't even think about using my D850 since I got the Z7. Also the $2K price on a new Z6II is attractive to me and I have a start on some Z lenses but nothing very lowlight capable. I bought the Z7 with the FTZ and the 24-70 f/4, then added a 15-30 f/4 and a 24-200 for a walk around lens. I think If I went with the Z6II I might be able to squeeze in another lens in the f/2.8 class if they ever come down in price

I'm worried though that I really wouldn't need two mirrorless cameras so I would have wasted the money I spent on the Z7. As luck would have it I bought it just one week before the announcement that the Z6II and the Z7II would be released. Other wise I would have waited for one of those. Thanks for the responses. I was also wondering if maybe I should just buy a used Z6 for low light shooting times? Same processor but only one...

 

[Rogereh]

I know the D5 was mentioned, but would there be any reason to get a D6 instead, given that budget is not an issue? Is the D5 better than the D6 or pretty much the same? I have the same issue that Rogereh does. I normally shoot wildlife with the D500 and, most recently, a 500PF lens.

But, I did mention that I had budget issues. A D6 would be out of my range.

 

[Marcus Slade]

In light of the camera bodies you currently own, and the objectives you describe of what you want to shoot, I would encourage consideration of the D5. Last year I went through the same debate and I ended up splurging for the D6, its low light/high ISO capability being virtually identical to the D5. However, a friend this weekend sent me a test shot he did with a borrowed Z6II at ISO 40000 and we were both impressed.

 

[jhallettbc]

I can't understand why the Nikon D780 gets virtually no mention here. I bought it during the summer and it continues to amaze me at how good it's low light capture is. Here are a few samples. The first is raw without any eating. The second is a close up with noise reduction applied in LR.

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[jhallettbc]

I forgot to add the shooting date for the above photo. It was shot on a Nikon 105, at f4.8, 1/180, ISO 10,000. This one below was Nikon 105, at f6.7, 1/180, ISO 8,000. The highlights were reduced and shadows increased.

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[FB101]

Just a silly question here but how does a D850 shot downsampled to 20mpx compare to a D5 or Z6ii shot at the same ISO setting?

To me a D4s/5/6 is as much about built quality, weatherproofing, reliability under tough conditions and speed as it is about low-light (as good as they are at low light) - and one pays a lot of money for those very desirable attributes. But if the goal is low light sensor performance in a fairly unstressful environment, maybe that's overkill...

I loved my Eos 1v cameras every time I was in Africa because they never let me down, no matter how much dust and sand was thrown at them, and I loved that I was able to wack a black bear into next week with one swing of the 1v mounted on a tripod and the camera kept on working like nothing happened (the bear wasn't so lucky, neither was the 24/70 f:2.8L mounted on the camera) - but I hated them the rest of the time because of the cost and weight. Those pro bodies are amazing but they are pro tools and i wonder if sometimes there aren't easier solutions right in front of us.

 

[Rassie]

I can't understand why the Nikon D780 gets virtually no mention here. I bought it during the summer and it continues to amaze me at how good it's low light capture is. Here are a few samples. The first is raw without any eating. The second is a close up with noise reduction applied in LR.
View attachment 13112View attachment 13113

Good point. I guess the D780 is not top of mind because few people have one since it's so new. Same sensor as Z6(ii) so noise performance should be the same.

 

[Rassie]

Just a silly question here but how does a D850 shot downsampled to 20mpx compare to a D5 or Z6ii shot at the same ISO setting?

To me a D4s/5/6 is as much about built quality, weatherproofing, reliability under tough conditions and speed as it is about low-light (as good as they are at low light) - and one pays a lot of money for those very desirable attributes. But if the goal is low light sensor performance in a fairly unstressful environment, maybe that's overkill...

I loved my Eos 1v cameras every time I was in Africa because they never let me down, no matter how much dust and sand was thrown at them, and I loved that I was able to wack a black bear into next week with one swing of the 1v mounted on a tripod and the camera kept on working like nothing happened (the bear wasn't so lucky, neither was the 24/70 f:2.8L mounted on the camera) - but I hated them the rest of the time because of the cost and weight. Those pro bodies are amazing but they are pro tools and i wonder if sometimes there aren't easier solutions right in front of us.

My understanding is when you crop a D850 image to that DX size, it resembles a D500 image with about the same amount of noise, perhaps a little bit more. So downsampling a high-res image like that of a D850 is going in the wrong direction and the image will be more noisy than that of a Z6/D780/D5.

 

[BillW]

My understanding is when you crop a D850 image to that DX size, it resembles a D500 image with about the same amount of noise, perhaps a little bit more. So downsampling a high-res image like that of a D850 is going in the wrong direction and the image will be more noisy than that of a Z6/D780/D5.

I think FB101 may have meant downsampling without cropping. Haven't compared these cameras that way, but suspect the D850 would do faily well.

 

[Rassie]

Gotcha. But then I wonder what benefit there would be in doing that to an image except perhaps for saving disk storage space?

 

[BillW]

I believe Photography Life does that in some of their tests to compare low-light performance of cameras with different resolutions. I am not sure whether it would lead to a bigger difference in noise between images from 45 mp cameras compared to 20 mp cameras. than if you simply view (or print) the images from the two cameras at the same size without downsampling or pixel peeping. I'd be curious what others think or have tested.

 

[FB101]

Gotcha. But then I wonder what benefit there would be in doing that to an image except perhaps for saving disk storage space?

Yes I meant downsampling, not cropping. Sorry if I wasn’t clear. The theoretical benefit I guess is that noise being randomly distributed throughout the picture, it gets statistically less represented in the final downsampled picture depending on the type of algorithm used. Just wondering if practice confirms theory a little bit like stacking and averaging to eliminate noise, except that this method is resolution destructing (while stacking and averaging is not) but the idea is the same, any new pixel is formed using information from more than one source pixel and therefore the noise gets “diluted” for lack of a better term.

 

[ruley74]

I've just gone thought he same thought process and picked up a D5 to go with my D500 & D850. With both those two i cap my ISO at 12800 which is higher than some but software helps and i would rather make the decision on post if the image is to be deleted.

The D5 after doing some initial testing I've capped at 25600... and that's only because i have used it higher and i think i could control shutter speed to stay in that range.

Have a look at the images in this thread as an example of low light D5 capability.... https://bcgforums.com/index.php?threads/20000-iso-d5.5474/

 

[BillW]

Yes I meant downsampling, not cropping. Sorry if I wasn’t clear. The theoretical benefit I guess is that noise being randomly distributed throughout the picture, it gets statistically less represented in the final downsampled picture depending on the type of algorithm used. Just wondering if practice confirms theory a little bit like stacking and averaging to eliminate noise, except that this method is resolution destructing (while stacking and averaging is not) but the idea is the same, any new pixel is formed using information from more than one source pixel and therefore the noise gets “diluted” for lack of a better term.

Does this effect show up to some extent even without downsampling if you view images from a 45 mp camera and 20 mp camera at the same size on a screen or in the same size print. Is viewing the higher resolution image at the same size as the lower resolution image a bit like downsampling?

 

[Vickie]

I can't understand why the Nikon D780 gets virtually no mention here. I bought it during the summer and it continues to amaze me at how good it's low light capture is. Here are a few samples. The first is raw without any eating. The second is a close up with noise reduction applied in LR.
View attachment 13112View attachment 13113

Thanks for sharing these. The D780 will be replacing my D700

 

[Ken Miracle]

Thanks for the thread @Rogereh ... I have been struggling with the same thoughts for low light (I miss my old D4S for that probably should not have sold it) but now trying to decide between a refurbished or used D5 and a D6 ... the D6 would be a no brainer except for the price and the always there question of just how often would I use it compared to my battery gripped (EN EL 18 batteries) D500 and D850 for my bird photography.

 

[crjPO]

For your price point it seems the D780 (I wasn't aware they have the same sensor) and Z6ii are your best options with incredible low light capability. If one is moving towards mirrorless which you seem to be doing with the new lenses It seems the z camera would make the most sense. I have the lenses you mention which are all great. Possibly the new 70-200 and the teleconverters would provide for faster midrange glass with versatility. The Z7 is a fantastic landscape camera and I'd focus on using it for that.

 

[bleirer]

If you scroll down at this site there is a table of cameras. If you click the column heading you can sort by low light iso, which means the iso where you have 6.5 stops of dynamic range left. https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

The z6ii was 5298 while the D5 was 7178.

 

[Andrea]

Why not a second hand D750? It has very good performance at high iso (I believe similar to D780 and better than D850) and since it has been replaced by the D780 you will find it much less expensive. The D750 is still a great camera.

 

[fcotterill]

This is a useful, and informative thread Overall I second the posters above on the D780. I not only need a low-light camera but more reliable AFC for wildlife, where the current Z MILCs fall short IME. With a Hoodman strapped on to the LCD I get a passable solution to shoot silently via Liveview. Nevertheless, this combo is unwieldy to handhold for long periods and carry around on hikes etc. But it's fine on a tripod/monopod. I think the reliability of the AFC has been underrated - as is the D780 generally. However, the same gripe I have with the Zeds applies to it - Nikon have pruned options in the Custom controls (ie f3 Menu). In a D780 you cannot assign AFOn+AF Mode(s) to Fn/Pv buttons, nor the Fn button on a telephoto etc. Yet their marketing makes a big pitch that this camera is ideal for shooting action?! It is indeed turning into a very long wait for Nikon to engage with reality and listen to their more loyal users. Firmware could feasibly add the missing options in Custom settings.

I traded in my Z7 for a new D780, last June when there was a price special running in S Africa. This was anticipating upgrades to the Z6 and Z7, and also having run out of patience with Nikon's underwhelming firmware upgrades: failing to plug gaps that are showstoppers, especially at the stiff prices. The Z II upgrades remain equally underwhelming for wildlife - the menu systems cannot do justice to the 10 AF modes etc. Best boycotted.

Nevertheless, all features in the single camera.... my testing on birds confirms the Z6 processor in the D780 can net excellent images up to ISO 25600. So with its image quality at high ISOs, combined with the D5 AF algorithms, Z-LCD functionality (the best yet in a DSLR - at least in my experience), I think many Nikon users will find that the D780 is a useful hybrid camera. You get all the AFC modes of Nikon's prosumer/pro DSLRs in OVF mode: pertinently S-point, Group, Auto, d9,d21,d51 - 3D if you use it; and there are the 5 AFC 'Z-modes' in Liveview (S-point, Dynamic, Wide-S, Wide-L, Auto). The first 3 of these Z-modes seem to more reliable IME, than I remember in the Z7! Obviously, with poignant firmware fixes, Nikon could make the D780 even better: especially to change AF modes assigned to Red Record button (as in Zeds) and above all AFOn+AFMode to Fn etc....

I'm also watching for rumoured releases. Besides the predicted D860, Nikon have to get out an 'Action' Z MILC. So hopefully we will see a Z6 III with D6 / "Z8" AF engine and crucially the D850-type controls to do justice to its capabilities: including near-instant switching between AF modes.

I'm also watching Used prices - mpb mainly in Uk, and also KEH, BandH. Launches of more new cameras tends to drop Used prices of excellent cameras (ie D5, D850). Look out for low-count D780s trickling into the Used market. In the UK, a decent D5 is ~3000 quid and less.

Example - male Malachite Sunbird visiting Aloe arborescens in shade. Note the yellow pectoral tuft, which he erects in courtship displays. The brownish object under his wing is a honeybee captured in mid-buzz
D780, 300 f4E PF+TC14 IIII, 1/3200, f5.6, ISO11400

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[jhallettbc]

Thank you for your post and the photo. It is absolutely stunning! I would like to add that I am very impressed with the AF speed on this camera. With my 70-200 E FL the autofocus is so fast I never see it happen. With action shots as I press the shutter I sometimes wonder "Was that in focus?" but it invariably turns out to be. With some lens you know for sure it won't be the case.