John Navitsky
Well-known member
it would be interesting to know the cost difference to nikon (assuming they could buy it) between their z9 sensor and that sensor
Anyone else waiting for a Nikon Z (CROP SENSOR) camera that replaces the D500?
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Fuji is getting 2500, Sony 1800 (but it's a cine camera). Nikon should be able to charge 2800-3200 depending on processor and features. They also need dedicated lenses, probably rebadged Tamrons.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
yah, guessing the expeed7 is more expensive than what's in the xh2s, but it does seem to suggest $3kish is possible
No. And no.
NikonBiologist
New member
I wanted a “z500”, but if Nikon makes one, it’ll be a while yet. Has me leaning toward a z8 to replace the om1 (mostly to consolidate Nikon gear though there are other perks)
The expeed7 would allow Nikon to have the best-performing cropped body on the market. The sensor size and density open up tremendous opportunities.
Doomrider74
Well-known member
They're also really underexposed, so probably not a great example.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
agree, it would be a true d500 successor
EricKlees
Well-known member
I'm not trying to make them look like daylight as that's not when they were shot. But hand held at 1/50 ISO6400 is crazy even when they are that sharp with detail is impressive.
Calson
Well-known member
When the D850 arrived I sold my D500. The D850 in DX mode provides a 19MP file as compared to 21MP with the D850 and I could live with that. That would be the case with the Z7 II with its 45MP sensor where the DX image size is 19MP.
BayouMedic
New member
I think what is more likely is a z50ii with the E-7 processor. MAYBE cfe-b card slot but honestly, I doubt it. If they'd put out a z50ii with 10-12fps mechanical shutter and shooting lossless compressed RAW files I'd buy one and, honestly, it would be a step up from the d500 but still keep the price low enough for the average "bird photographer" to afford it while also appealing to the masses of social media folks-which is honestly what drives most sales right now. I could be wrong-it's just my opinion on what is the most practical for Nikon at this time.
I would be interested in a D7500/D500-level DX camera. I currently own a D500 that I use with a budget trio of AF-P 10-20mm, 18-55mm, and 70-300mm DX VR lenses, along with a Sigma 100-400 lens. It is a very-capable and fairly-compact general-photography setup that can be used for BIF and fast-action photography.
If Nikon wants me (and I suspect many others) to move to the Z-mount cameras and lenses then they need to have DX options to FX gear. Adding enthusiast-level DX body along with a maintaining a solid mix of 8-10 prime and zoom DX lenses would be all that is needed to keep DX enthusiasts in the Nikon fold.
If Nikon wants me (and I suspect many others) to move to the Z-mount cameras and lenses then they need to have DX options to FX gear. Adding enthusiast-level DX body along with a maintaining a solid mix of 8-10 prime and zoom DX lenses would be all that is needed to keep DX enthusiasts in the Nikon fold.
Something I've been saying at various times since the Z9 appeared and the "I want a mirrorless D500 got ratcheted up a couple notches", Thom Hogan said in a recent posting on Z-System User...
"Some of you will say “Nikon should just buy the existing Sony Semiconductor sensors.” Specifically, you’ll point to the 26mp sensor used in the X-H2S (stacked DX), the 33mp sensor used in the A7 Mark IV, and the 61mp sensor used in the A7R Mark V. First, I’m not sure the first two of those aren’t tied up with some sort of time exclusivity arrangement. Second, the last sensor is clearly available but probably doesn’t suffice for Nikon’s desire for no more mechanical shutter cameras.
As I’ve noted before, tell me the image sensors Nikon will be using for future cameras and I’ll tell you what the camera is. But if I have to guess at what image sensors Nikon has available, well, anything is possible, it just might not be probable ;~)."
IMHO, if two factors aligned, Nikon MIGHT be producing the mirrorless D500 not the Z8...those two factors are:
A) the parts being available to build the product that meets the standard of performance that they would set for it to enter the market as a performance leader, not a "me too" product based on old technology.
B) a large enough market for it to not lose money on it in the long run. Only Nikon knows, for certain, how many D500's were actually sold. Color me sceptical that a large enough market exists in the new mirrorless world to make developing a somewhat niche high-performance DX product a wise use of company resources. It's generally an unsuccessful business strategy to try to be all things to everyone. Does anyone see FujiFilm or OM Systems rushing into FF bodies...has Panasonic set the world on fire with their FF lineup?
An argument could well be made that the Z8 is Nikon's best effort, given the parts and technology available at this time, to offer a product that can meet and exceed the needs of the D850 and the D500 mirrorless holdouts. Hence the product being released at the lower end of the rumored price range. And in 2023 dollars, it's priced less than the D850 was at launch and includes an arguably state of the art hybrid video camera in the deal.
Where do you think the surprising number of Z9 buyers and potentially large numbers of Z8 buyers are coming from...I'd wager a very large number of them, like myself, are former D500 owners, who have the means to prioritize their spending on a more expensive, more capable body.
So where does that leave those of you who can't justify and/or afford a $4000 body right now...or ever. If that were me and I had a sizeable investment in decent Nikon glass, some of it, especially longer lenses in FX, I'd wait and see what happens through the end of this year in terms of a Z50 upgrade or replacement with a new designation. I have to believe that with the Expeed 7 or a lessor variant, AF and FPS could be improved to offer D500 users a palatable choice to entice them to switch to mirrorless at a sub $2000 price point, maybe far below $2000, with IBIS and decent 4K video capability. A mini Z8 DX with stacked CMOS...nope, you can't have that now...maybe never. There are drawbacks to pushing the resolution of DX much higher, but I'll leave that to others to comment on.
Cheers!
"Some of you will say “Nikon should just buy the existing Sony Semiconductor sensors.” Specifically, you’ll point to the 26mp sensor used in the X-H2S (stacked DX), the 33mp sensor used in the A7 Mark IV, and the 61mp sensor used in the A7R Mark V. First, I’m not sure the first two of those aren’t tied up with some sort of time exclusivity arrangement. Second, the last sensor is clearly available but probably doesn’t suffice for Nikon’s desire for no more mechanical shutter cameras.
As I’ve noted before, tell me the image sensors Nikon will be using for future cameras and I’ll tell you what the camera is. But if I have to guess at what image sensors Nikon has available, well, anything is possible, it just might not be probable ;~)."
IMHO, if two factors aligned, Nikon MIGHT be producing the mirrorless D500 not the Z8...those two factors are:
A) the parts being available to build the product that meets the standard of performance that they would set for it to enter the market as a performance leader, not a "me too" product based on old technology.
B) a large enough market for it to not lose money on it in the long run. Only Nikon knows, for certain, how many D500's were actually sold. Color me sceptical that a large enough market exists in the new mirrorless world to make developing a somewhat niche high-performance DX product a wise use of company resources. It's generally an unsuccessful business strategy to try to be all things to everyone. Does anyone see FujiFilm or OM Systems rushing into FF bodies...has Panasonic set the world on fire with their FF lineup?
An argument could well be made that the Z8 is Nikon's best effort, given the parts and technology available at this time, to offer a product that can meet and exceed the needs of the D850 and the D500 mirrorless holdouts. Hence the product being released at the lower end of the rumored price range. And in 2023 dollars, it's priced less than the D850 was at launch and includes an arguably state of the art hybrid video camera in the deal.
Where do you think the surprising number of Z9 buyers and potentially large numbers of Z8 buyers are coming from...I'd wager a very large number of them, like myself, are former D500 owners, who have the means to prioritize their spending on a more expensive, more capable body.
So where does that leave those of you who can't justify and/or afford a $4000 body right now...or ever. If that were me and I had a sizeable investment in decent Nikon glass, some of it, especially longer lenses in FX, I'd wait and see what happens through the end of this year in terms of a Z50 upgrade or replacement with a new designation. I have to believe that with the Expeed 7 or a lessor variant, AF and FPS could be improved to offer D500 users a palatable choice to entice them to switch to mirrorless at a sub $2000 price point, maybe far below $2000, with IBIS and decent 4K video capability. A mini Z8 DX with stacked CMOS...nope, you can't have that now...maybe never. There are drawbacks to pushing the resolution of DX much higher, but I'll leave that to others to comment on.
Cheers!
That sensor is the 26.1 that's in two cameras and soon in the Alpha 6xxx. The question that you raise is the key one. Can Nikon add enough features, which will most likely require the better processor AND have ready the 5-10 native lenses to grab enough market share in a decreasing market to ever make a buck on it. There is something to be said for a $1,200 APS-C camera, not sure about $3,000.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
while i get the argument about DX means you have to build a DX ecosystem, i think they’ll still do it.
1) they already have DX cameras. they already have this problem
2) they have Tamron. i would expect them to leverage their lens partners to build lower cost lenses they don’t want to make
3) and most importantly, the dx sensor is cheaper to make than the fx sensor. so in the end it’s going to let them push the price down and lower prices mean new customer opportunities
THAT SAID, given the release of the z8, i think the soonest we’d see such a camera would be in about a year. i suspect they’re going to want to make sure they sell a z8 to everyone they can and so if a lower priced option existed they might loose z8 sales to it, just like if the z8 existed when the z9 was released
i think it’ll come, but i don’t think it’ll be in the next couple of cameras
1) they already have DX cameras. they already have this problem
2) they have Tamron. i would expect them to leverage their lens partners to build lower cost lenses they don’t want to make
3) and most importantly, the dx sensor is cheaper to make than the fx sensor. so in the end it’s going to let them push the price down and lower prices mean new customer opportunities
THAT SAID, given the release of the z8, i think the soonest we’d see such a camera would be in about a year. i suspect they’re going to want to make sure they sell a z8 to everyone they can and so if a lower priced option existed they might loose z8 sales to it, just like if the z8 existed when the z9 was released
i think it’ll come, but i don’t think it’ll be in the next couple of cameras
I have a Z9 and was possibly interested in a Z version of the D500 as a second wildlife body. I shot the D500 and D850 for a long time.
Now that I have added a Z8 to my Z9, I’m less interested in a Z version of the D500. The Z8 is lighter than the Z9, has AF that matches and controls that largely match the Z9, and has a reasonable DX crop (in camera or in post). So the Z8 is a great second body and back up to use with the Z9. (I like my Z9 a lot and will keep it. I was reluctant to buy a second one, given its size and weight.)
When I was using the D500 and D850, I often found myself preferring the D850, as then the crop was optional and I could use full frame if the situation allowed it. That would argue — at least for me — for a Z8 over a Z version of the D500.
That said, I hope Nikon produces a Z version of the D500. I think it would need a new sensor to avoid the mechanical shutter and add some pixels. And I think there is a market for it. Depending on specifications, I might be interested. I would not particularly need DX lenses for it, as I would use it with telephotos. The Z9/Z8/Z7II would be my choice for normal and wide angle lenses.
Now that I have added a Z8 to my Z9, I’m less interested in a Z version of the D500. The Z8 is lighter than the Z9, has AF that matches and controls that largely match the Z9, and has a reasonable DX crop (in camera or in post). So the Z8 is a great second body and back up to use with the Z9. (I like my Z9 a lot and will keep it. I was reluctant to buy a second one, given its size and weight.)
When I was using the D500 and D850, I often found myself preferring the D850, as then the crop was optional and I could use full frame if the situation allowed it. That would argue — at least for me — for a Z8 over a Z version of the D500.
That said, I hope Nikon produces a Z version of the D500. I think it would need a new sensor to avoid the mechanical shutter and add some pixels. And I think there is a market for it. Depending on specifications, I might be interested. I would not particularly need DX lenses for it, as I would use it with telephotos. The Z9/Z8/Z7II would be my choice for normal and wide angle lenses.
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Aeron
New member
D500 + 200-500 here patiently waiting for a Z500 and the 200-600
I know the Z8 in DX mode is like a D500 but 4800€ ( in my country ) only for the body plus FTZ adapter and some extra batteries ( no third parties lol ) is too much for me
I know the Z8 in DX mode is like a D500 but 4800€ ( in my country ) only for the body plus FTZ adapter and some extra batteries ( no third parties lol ) is too much for me
fcotterill
Well-known member
Take the silicon platter that is built progressively with precision lithographic instruments by fabs into a matrix of stacked sensors. These platters of a standard diameter have an average % yield of FX sensors. These being the stacked sensors that pass all the precision error testing etc become the keystone parts of the Z9 and Z8 cameras
Scale down the modified micro circuitry into the smaller DX footprint on the similarly sized layers of silicon platters. It follows the DX unit yield is then not only higher in absolute numbers of sensors/platter, and are produced with lower errors.
The net savings drops the MILC production price, which is passed on to two key market sectors; those upgrading from DSLRs or other brands, who baulk at the prices of the Z8 let alone Z9.... And....
Scale down the modified micro circuitry into the smaller DX footprint on the similarly sized layers of silicon platters. It follows the DX unit yield is then not only higher in absolute numbers of sensors/platter, and are produced with lower errors.
The net savings drops the MILC production price, which is passed on to two key market sectors; those upgrading from DSLRs or other brands, who baulk at the prices of the Z8 let alone Z9.... And....
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fcotterill
Well-known member
Students and emerging photographers are an even more important cohort, for a Stacked DX camera to not only attract but as importantly capture as customers who proceed to grow their earning power. Perhaps some will first buy either a Z50 or the Z90 as their first MILC for wildlife. These owners are likely to grow into Nikon. And some of these persisters will buy telephotos.
The only DX Z lenses needed already exist, including the FX pancakes, and all the non S line zooms. The 180-600 will be an Ace Z Nikkor for these Z90 owners. A hard cold fact is the D500 and 200-500 f5.6 is still the most effective and affordable wildlife pairing ever made.
Nikon must be aware of this.
The only DX Z lenses needed already exist, including the FX pancakes, and all the non S line zooms. The 180-600 will be an Ace Z Nikkor for these Z90 owners. A hard cold fact is the D500 and 200-500 f5.6 is still the most effective and affordable wildlife pairing ever made.
Nikon must be aware of this.
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I think the question is whether there is room for a "D500 replacement" body with higher specs. The sensor exists, but will it find its way into a $2800 Nikon body? And will those customers would be satisfied with the current lineup of Z DX lenses? As you often remind us, Nikon's in it for the lenses, so that's a big part of the equation.
fcotterill
Well-known member
Yip
And Z9 technology is leveraging lens sales, with net higher profits.
Each high end camera sold earns on the investment in Z9 R&D. Obviously the EXPEED7 cpus are integral to all these cameras.
A Z90 is another cost effective way to sell both Z9 tech and more Z Nikkors to otherwise inaccessible cohorts of the hobbyist market. The Z9 first and now Z8 are selling into the upper market cohorts, but there's still more potential sales in what Nikon identifies as its Emerging Market.
Each Z90 sale thereafter has the probability of a return customer
John Navitsky
Well-known member
fwiw, nikon only had a couple of pro grade dx lens for the dslr (the 17-55 comes to mind). i suspect most prosumer dx folks will just buy fx lenses, and the f/4 lenses probably fit the bill pretty well for folks who want a higher quality lens but are not prepared to get the faster versions
I did not know that. Never been a DX guy. In the Canon world, a lot of guys shooting the R5C and C70 are using EF glass because of the lack of RF lenses, so I can see that.
fcotterill
Well-known member
Well the long wait for the 180-600 f5.6/6.3 is over (well at least its material touchdown is August).
There's the 12-28 f3.5/5.6 PZ for a Z mount DX zoom, and the 16-50 DX is an excellent kit lens in the Nikon tradition. IME in my D60, D7200, D500 days... the only real need for DX dedicated lenses is at the ultrawide end. Otherwise, Non S FX are the rational choice IMHO.
Otherwise, no lack of relatively affordable zooms to grow a high performance DX system on a budget: muffin primes (28 f2.8, 40 f2, 24 f1.7 DX Pancake) plus the trio of f2.8 Light Dragons [17-28 f2.8, 28-75 f2.8, 70-180 f2.8].
The arguments above for a more affordable high performance Z Camera still apply: Each Z90 sale = a probability of return customer; cost effective way to sell more Z9 tech + Z Nikkors. The target market are students and emerging photographers, but in fact anyone eyeing the excellent Z telephotos for wildlife, birding, aircraft, extreme sport… Saving $1000-3000 on the camera means the telephoto lies closer to the budget
Above all, and inclusive of these justification is a primary strategic aim of Nikon Imaging - leverage the Camera: Lens sales ratio
So EXPEED7, Z9 EVF and menu-style controls, and critically a stacked DX sensor on par with what's driving the Fuji
There's the 12-28 f3.5/5.6 PZ for a Z mount DX zoom, and the 16-50 DX is an excellent kit lens in the Nikon tradition. IME in my D60, D7200, D500 days... the only real need for DX dedicated lenses is at the ultrawide end. Otherwise, Non S FX are the rational choice IMHO.
Otherwise, no lack of relatively affordable zooms to grow a high performance DX system on a budget: muffin primes (28 f2.8, 40 f2, 24 f1.7 DX Pancake) plus the trio of f2.8 Light Dragons [17-28 f2.8, 28-75 f2.8, 70-180 f2.8].
The arguments above for a more affordable high performance Z Camera still apply: Each Z90 sale = a probability of return customer; cost effective way to sell more Z9 tech + Z Nikkors. The target market are students and emerging photographers, but in fact anyone eyeing the excellent Z telephotos for wildlife, birding, aircraft, extreme sport… Saving $1000-3000 on the camera means the telephoto lies closer to the budget
Above all, and inclusive of these justification is a primary strategic aim of Nikon Imaging - leverage the Camera: Lens sales ratio
So EXPEED7, Z9 EVF and menu-style controls, and critically a stacked DX sensor on par with what's driving the Fuji
ZecaM
New member
I Purchased the D500 in 2016. What a camera! Shooting BIF since then. The camera is a champ on AF tracking. It locks on the BIF and it does not let go! Even when faced with a busy background. I purchased the Z9 and the Z 800 Pf and the results are not the same. The camera loses focus sometimes when in a busy background. Yes, I did upgrade to firmware 4.1. I like my D500 so much I purchased another brand new one last month as a backup when my first one fails. I have more than 400,000 cycles on it already! LOL I will wait and see if Nikon will improve AF tracking on busy backgrounds on the Z9 and if they launch a Z equivalent for the D500 I will probably buy it. It remains to be seen. In my opinion Nikon is sleeping at the bus stop again. Canon is making a big splash with their R7 at &1,400.00 and Nikon just launched the Z8 and the Zf.... They should've launched the Z90 (D500 mirrorless) before the Z8 or the Zf...