Official Nikon Z9 Launch, Info, and Discussion Thread

[Anjin San]

Interesting that linking an article about the Z9 turned again into "but the A1 is still better". Can you please take the A1 out of this thread? We already had this discussion 10 pages back or so, and everybody agrees your A1s are best, no need to rehash it.

Actually…anybody that agrees the A1 is better without having seen and used a production Z9 can't make that determination. It may be better…but it may be better only for people that strictly compare specs instead of actually using both and making a judgement. I agree that the A1 is a very fine body…but it would require me switching brands and that's a huge expense in both dollars to replace existing gear and in time to unlearn and relearn all the muscle memory I've got…and the same things would be true if one were to switch from or to any brand…so one must evaluate whether better is the enemy of good enough.

The real point is that nobody has compared a production Z9 to an A1 yet…so any 'conclusions' before that happens are based on not much more than marketing hype and/or brand bias. And none of that takes into account whether it's 'better' for the images and purposes any individual user.

I agree with you though…I'm really tired of all the Sony fanboys telling me how the A1 is the bestest camera ever. Might be for them but they're making these pronouncements like Moses coming down from the mountain.

 

[John Navitsky]

And quite frankly, unless you spend a lot of time with both, you _still_ probably can't make that comparison. And even if you spent a lot of time with both, you could only compare the functions that you leverage.

 

[BillW]

Its logical that the Z9 fits the purpose brilliantly for so so many.............but there is defiantly a great chance that Nikon will eventually bring out a dedicated lower res higher iso deadly focused Pro performer for the dedicated pro market especially sports action with high quality pro video and pro connectivity............that's what i was referring to in the early comments, this dedicated pro version is the missing link.

The Z9 is excellent tool and fits the purpose for so many as i have described earlier, but its only one half of the equation............while the Z9 is an all rounder its not the ultimate top dog for high iso and mad speed at high iso, this is yet to come.......only an assumption..........on my part but a very plausible one if you look at history.............2022-23 will see even more real innovation arrive................... is my feeling.......i don't think one should think the Z9 is the end of the line.........as the end all be all.

Z9 ?
A7II D6
D850 D6
D810 D5
D800 D4s

Can one downsample the 45 mp Z9 flies to, say 24 mp, and have less noise? Alternatively, while the noise may be more viewed at the pixel level, if you equalize output size, is it that different?

I am assuming that the Z9 will have the low light AF capabilities — or better — that we see in the Z6II, D6 and D5. That will be good to confirm.

 

[John Navitsky]

Can one downsample the 45 mp Z9 flies to, say 24 mp, and have less noise? Alternatively, while the noise may be more viewed at the pixel level, if you equalize output size, is it that different?

Yah, there's a lot of doubt at this point that lower MP (in itself) is going to get you better high ISO performance. There does seem to be a "tuning" aspect, but it's anyone's guess at this point just how good or not good the Z9 is going to be at high ISO. Certainly a number of folks seem to suggest it's not going to suck.

I am assuming that the Z9 will have the low light AF capabilities — or better — that we see in the Z6II, D6 and D5. That will be good to confirm.

I've seen some reports about this. It sounds like it should be able to AF in very poor lighting conditions.

 

[lwan]

HERE IS FOR SOME WHAT IS WRONG WITH GETTING A Z9

If we think that its the be end to all, do all in one camera.........you may be in for a shock, my hypothesis is it wont be..........

The enormous popularity of the Z9 is because many feel its the do all in one camera YEEEE....and for so many it will be.

However Manufactures will never do that for you..........and never have.........its bad for business.

The Z9 breaks teh drought and hits the sweet spot for volume uptake in sales and deliverers incentive to get people into the Z glass....... a honey pot stacked with over pricing for low cost manufactured lenses price hiked beyond belief........for what they are.

My Hypothesis ...i don't want to get arrested by the Google police LOL

I hope there will be a new model just for dedicated pros, teh camera will have large pixels, much lower resolution, insaine focusing ability, breath taking ISO and speed................i feel this will come after the Z9 pipeline has been filled......also at which point the drill down cheaper version of the Z9 will arrive if not just before.

Nikon has done a great Job hats off................

The Z9 cruidly put is like a D850 Z7II style camera on steroids with a new sensor and focusing system, mirror-less..........we cop that......45mp still has its limitations on ISO and more speed as that logically both comes at the expense of dynamic range.............colour accuracy........generally speaking......gates open boys LOL

The Z9 is braking the drought and is so welcomed..........it will eventually deliver a lot of what we want...........but it will only be one half of the range, the other half wont be far behind it will be the mega TOP Dog LOL...........

Z9 ?
A7II D6
D850 D6
D810 D5
D800 D4s

Ok.........this to come top dog may well be only 16 mp or max 20 mp, i feel the difference between 24mp and 45 equates to only about 20% in actual resolution, i don't know for certain i am guessing from what i have heard in the past. This cameras priority wont be resolution it will be ISO, speed, focusing and smaller file sizes with killer video.

The two camera party owners will just have to have one me included LOL..........and Nikon knows it LOL.

You get the general drift of what i am guessing could happen.............start salting away those penny's ...Merry Christmas to all and a Happy New Year...........

Why all the dots?

 

[Anjin San]

Steve orders a Z9 'nuff said

Doesn't he order pretty much everything…at least to test and then sell if he doesn't want to keep it?

 

[FB101]

HERE IS FOR SOME WHAT IS WRONG WITH GETTING A Z9

If we think that its the be end to all, do all in one camera.........you may be in for a shock, my hypothesis is it wont be..........

The enormous popularity of the Z9 is because many feel its the do all in one camera YEEEE....and for so many it will be.

However Manufactures will never do that for you..........and never have.........its bad for business.

The Z9 breaks teh drought and hits the sweet spot for volume uptake in sales and deliverers incentive to get people into the Z glass....... a honey pot stacked with over pricing for low cost manufactured lenses price hiked beyond belief........for what they are.

My Hypothesis ...i don't want to get arrested by the Google police LOL

I hope there will be a new model just for dedicated pros, teh camera will have large pixels, much lower resolution, insaine focusing ability, breath taking ISO and speed................i feel this will come after the Z9 pipeline has been filled......also at which point the drill down cheaper version of the Z9 will arrive if not just before.

Nikon has done a great Job hats off................

The Z9 cruidly put is like a D850 Z7II style camera on steroids with a new sensor and focusing system, mirror-less..........we cop that......45mp still has its limitations on ISO and more speed as that logically both comes at the expense of dynamic range.............colour accuracy........generally speaking......gates open boys LOL

The Z9 is braking the drought and is so welcomed..........it will eventually deliver a lot of what we want...........but it will only be one half of the range, the other half wont be far behind it will be the mega TOP Dog LOL...........

Z9 ?
A7II D6
D850 D6
D810 D5
D800 D4s

Ok.........this to come top dog may well be only 16 mp or max 20 mp, i feel the difference between 24mp and 45 equates to only about 20% in actual resolution, i don't know for certain i am guessing from what i have heard in the past. This cameras priority wont be resolution it will be ISO, speed, focusing and smaller file sizes with killer video.

The two camera party owners will just have to have one me included LOL..........and Nikon knows it LOL.

You get the general drift of what i am guessing could happen.............start salting away those penny's ...Merry Christmas to all and a Happy New Year...........

I am not as pessimistic as you around the limitations of the Z9. I think that once you downsize the Z9 image to 20 or 24MP it will have no practical limitation on high iso, DR and color accuracy. It's just a hunch but Nikon has been refining the science behind the 45MP 64iso base sensor for the last 6 years and honestly, nobody is matching them yet.

Speed could be an area where they may need a new model to get beyond the current limits of the Z9 - whether that's something any Nikon user will feel is needed is yet to be proven. I shoot the A1 at 20 fps most of the time and 30fps is really a special need case. There is a quick diminishing return over 20fps and the situations that benefit from 30fps are pretty rare (but they do exist). I know that if I grabbed a Z9 tomorrow, 30fps would not make it to my list of things I'd worry about (ergonomics and lack of some of the control elements I enjoy using would be much higher on my list of things to adjust to).

So in short, I don't know that Nikon needs a low MP version of the Z9 unless they had something really special up heir sleeve in terms of video but considering how good the Z9 is, I wonder what that could even be.

 

[John Navitsky]

Yah, I'm not sure what we think is the gap in terms of speed. If the Z9 is competitive in terms of AF performance (and we think it is) with all the other flagships like the R3 [sic] and A1, I don't see how that's a specific area of concern.

In terms of FPS, I suspect the Z9 already has the building blocks to deliver that.

I have a pet theory that they "have a plan" based on the TicoRAW support. TicoRAW's claim to fame is performance of the encoding. That it say, the encoding itself is fast.

If we consider a Prograde Cobalt card can sustain 1400MB/s and a HE* RAW file weighs in at 33MB, it's theoretically possible to write 42fps using HE* to a Prograde Cobalt.

My suspicion is that a future update might enable 30fps with HE*. Just a theory of course, but i think 20fps and 30fps are both "fast", and I don't see we need a "next gen" camera to be able to do that. Indeed, we're getting into the territory where media speed may be the limiting factor.

 

[O]

Interesting thoughts coming through...........

What i am thinking is.........
there is nothing wrong with the Z9 it appears to a exciting new model........ New focusing system speed video yeee all exciting.
The point is that 45mp and speed has its limitations for super high iso or low light conditions.

ie: the D850 iso versus the D6 iso performance the gap is huge in low light combined with speed.........understandably they are two diffrent tools for two different markets.

The Z9 is a fantastic new bench mark for Nikon as a do all round general everything camera a bit like the D850 was in its day.
But as long as your but points to the ground, logic says the higher the iso you have you have to throw out dynamic range/colour, unless here is some new invention out there yet to be released.

Ok that means the images can look poorly at real high iso, so to deliver good colour and dynamic range at higher iso you need to increase the light sorce, light being a photon made of red green and blue so i am told.........bingo.........you need much larger pixels......medium format cameras far out strip 35mm in high iso performance because simply the size of their very large pixels. Ok be it the Z9 Z7II D850 they all have similer ISO performance...they aint no D6 in that area...as an example.

What i am saying is i am not raging on the Z9, its not going to be the final flag ship pro hi iso power house pro camera........there needs to be the model like the D6 was to the D850.
I feel this imaginary dedicated low light pro model will deliver very high iso permanence, even stickier focusing and process, ??? maybe 40 or 50 fps full raw as well as have super high end video with 5g 6g ? connectivity, that's the gap that needs to be filled...........now that's not going to happen at 45mp easily and i am happy to be wrong in my pipe dream......

Their is a place for a pier model for full time pros that will compliment the Z9.........we need a model camera that dose low light with speed and full dynamic range to compliment the Z9 arena but it will need to be with much larger pixels or means or gathering extra light........is my assumption.

Remember we are using compact computers now not cameras as we knew them.

In all that the principal remains, we all only can use a combination of time light and speed to make an image........through a lens with a camera.

Have fun LOL

 

[John Navitsky]

The point is that 45mp and speed has its limitations for super high iso or low light conditions.

I think it is very unclear that this is true.

In the case of high ISO, I think this is more about how the sensor is tuned than the actual MP involved and at the very least, we don't know of any _intrinsic_ issues with the Z9. I also am getting the distinct impression the whole industry is moving away from "specialized" turnings.

In the case of FPS, I'm pretty if you read between the lines that TicoRAW is Nikon's answer. They're basically saying that HE* offers you a 33MB image which takes up about the same space as a Z6ii RAW file (I just pulled up a random Z6ii compressed lossless RAW file and it was 36MB). So if you thought you wanted a 24MP camera to deal with image size, they're saying just select HE* and there you go.

In terms of the *writing* speed related to file size, I think you are again seeing that TicoRAW is their answer. So CFE-b has a theoretical max of 2000MB/s. If new media gets up to, let's say, 1800MB/s, then a camera should be able to sustain about 54fps. Indeed, you might even be able to sustain 30fps with "normal" lossless compressed.

The takeway here is that 1) i think you can infer Nikon's strategy here, and 2) at some point in the near future we're really constrained more by the theoretical speed of CFE-b and the actually available media.

 

[O]

I think it is very unclear this is true in both cases.

In the former case, I think this is more about how the sensor is tuned than the actual MP involved and at the very least, we don't know of any _intrinsic_ issues with the Z9. I also am getting the distinct impression the whole industry is moving away from "specialized" turnings.

In the latter case, I'm pretty if you read between the lines that TicoRAW is Nikon's answer. They're basically saying that HE* offers you a 33MB image which takes up about the same space as a Z6ii RAW file (I just pulled up a random Z6ii compressed lossless RAW file and it was 36MB). So if you thought you wanted a 24MP camera to deal with image size, they're saying just select HE* and there you go.

In terms of the *writing* speed related to file size, I think you are again seeing that TicoRAW is their answer. So CFE-b has a theoretical max of 2000MB/s. If new media gets up to, let's say, 1800MB/s, then a camera should be able to sustain about 54fps. Indeed, you might even be able to sustain 30fps with "normal" lossless compressed.

The takeway here is that 1) i think you can infer Nikon's strategy here, and 2) at some point in the near future we're really constrained more by the theoretical speed of CFE-b and the actually available media.

Good one intersting food for thaught thankyou, so you dont feel they will come out with another dedicated full hi iso pro at some stage ?

 

[MorganP]

Why is everyone arguing over a camera the no one has used. It seems to be a fight about a personal vision that people think the camera will be.

 

[Bill T]

Why is everyone arguing over a camera the no one has used. It seems to be a fight about a personal vision that people think the camera will be.

Seems to be the nature of a lot of public forums. People are more excited than kids on Xmas Eve. Unfortunately it looks like the news today is that delivery is likely delayed until after Xmas. Hard to decipher a lot of the news flash posts, but seems like Japan release on Dec 24 and perhaps other locations in January. So people will have to speculate a little longer.

 

[fcotterill]

Yes, we can expect to see many footnotes in future across the internet drilling into details of Z9 IQ. to the basic premises we can draw already from existing 45mp compared to 24mp sensors ie Z7 versus Z6 image quality

Only a select minority in Nikon know.

Perhaps the new compression and Nikon's other features have some real surprises once final firmware is out here in the wild.

Only a select minority in Nikon know.

I am not as pessimistic as you around the limitations of the Z9. I think that once you downsize the Z9 image to 20 or 24MP it will have no practical limitation on high iso, DR and color accuracy. It's just a hunch but Nikon has been refining the science behind the 45MP 64iso base sensor for the last 6 years and honestly, nobody is matching them yet.

Speed could be an area where they may need a new model to get beyond the current limits of the Z9 - whether that's something any Nikon user will feel is needed is yet to be proven. I shoot the A1 at 20 fps most of the time and 30fps is really a special need case. There is a quick diminishing return over 20fps and the situations that benefit from 30fps are pretty rare (but they do exist). I know that if I grabbed a Z9 tomorrow, 30fps would not make it to my list of things I'd worry about (ergonomics and lack of some of the control elements I enjoy using would be much higher on my list of things to adjust to).

So in short, I don't know that Nikon needs a low MP version of the Z9 unless they had something really special up heir sleeve in terms of video but considering how good the Z9 is, I wonder what that could even be.

Later next year sometime expect defnitive feedback from post processing obsessives and weeks if not months of pixel peeping. When the Z9 has shipped, I'm confident it will hit the ground at full speed and deliver in spades. Bold statement based in new growing blog reports by Thom Hogan and Brad Hill. More details in post above - quoted below.

In short there's zilch to fret about

I agree entirely, and there's more...

From all we have seen and what's been discussed about the Z9 specs and features, there is not much to worry about IMHO. Prior to these reports using the prototypes over the past 5 weeks, my original position was this camera will ably qualify for my needs and standards in AF and haptics provided it at least matches the reliability of the D5 and better D6 for wildlife subjects.

Over the past week, Thom H and Brad Hill have confirmed the primary aspects in reports of the first wave of Z9 users aka influencers:

• excellent blackout free, bright EVF;
• Nikon colour science;
• the fps and buffer etc is more than one needs in almost all situations;
• what will likely become rated the most advanced and reliable AF system in the history of 'affordable' photography as of 2021-2022.

There are zilch concerns over the fully electronic shutter. The sensor guard is long overdue, especially in dusty conditions. Major kudos to Nikon.

The only real area of concern - more academic - is the lowlight image quality; but again as you and others are saying.... if the Z9 matches D850 / Z7 sensor quality ie ISO6400 - 25600 no worries, even if pp software is the necessary accessory for these images.

One intriguing arena where we will keep learning until the camera has been worked hard - entails the deeper details of Z9 Menu intricacies and Haptics. Overall, Thom Hogan and Brad Hill have already confirmed the customization scope / options in the Z9 Menus is better than those in the D6. Here the Z9 brings quantum improvements, compared to the mid-tier Z6 - Z7 cameras.

This especially applies to the Z9 allowing more Options-per-Button - big leap fwd over the irksome Nikon tradition to tie users to apron strings by crippling some of the control buttons on DSLRs and also the Zeds. For example, muzzling Fn3 to be basically useless for most of us (except MyMenu maybe).

Now we will be able to customize the Z9 in so many different ways for action shooting etc, including other genres. For example, the Z9 now allows more options besides mapping a preferred AFMode+AFOn to a Fn button(s). There are at least 3 ways to switch AF modes solely with the right hand, and with single controls. This includes using a respective suite of RSF (Recall Shooting Functions) in each Shooting Bank.

 

[fcotterill]

Questions about how much "better" is some arcane feature in some or other non-Nikon camera might well obsess some gear obsessives. But injecting statements into Nikon threads that 'Brand A better than Brand B..' is worn out troll talk. The incessant returns to this stuff has forced more than a few to depart the poorly moderated Nikon forum at FM.

Whether certain products in other brands are superb is absolutely irrelevant to most committed Nikon owners. The simple reason is we are financially locked into Nikon kit especially expensive telephotos etc.

What matters is how the Z9 compares against existing Z and F Nikon cameras: the D6, D850 especially. As posted and broadcast ad nauseam, the answers have already been fairly firmly spelled out.

But only when one has the Z9 shooting is in the wild, will a D6 / D850 owners really understand how the DSLR's Group AF modes etc are really different in practice from Z AF modes, especially these new Z modes....

Similar context for optics: compare the options available in the Greater Nikon Ecosystem: relevant Z against current F lenses etc.... in all the bewildering options

Actually…anybody that agrees the A1 is better without having seen and used a production Z9 can't make that determination. It may be better…but it may be better only for people that strictly compare specs instead of actually using both and making a judgement. I agree that the A1 is a very fine body…but it would require me switching brands and that's a huge expense in both dollars to replace existing gear and in time to unlearn and relearn all the muscle memory I've got…and the same things would be true if one were to switch from or to any brand…so one must evaluate whether better is the enemy of good enough.

The real point is that nobody has compared a production Z9 to an A1 yet…so any 'conclusions' before that happens are based on not much more than marketing hype and/or brand bias. And none of that takes into account whether it's 'better' for the images and purposes any individual user.

I agree with you though…I'm really tired of all the Sony fanboys telling me how the A1 is the bestest camera ever. Might be for them but they're making these pronouncements like Moses coming down from the mountain.

 

[FB101]

Questions about how much "better" is some arcane feature in some or other non-Nikon camera might well obsess some gear obsessives. But injecting statements into Nikon threads that 'Brand A better than Brand B..' is worn out troll talk. The incessant returns to this stuff has forced more than a few to depart the poorly moderated Nikon forum at FM.

Whether certain products in other brands are superb is absolutely irrelevant to most committed Nikon owners. The simple reason is we are financially locked into Nikon kit especially expensive telephotos etc.

What matters is how the Z9 compares against existing Z and F Nikon cameras: the D6, D850 especially. As posted and broadcast ad nauseam, the answers have already been fairly firmly spelled out.

But only when one has the Z9 shooting is in the wild, will a D6 / D850 owners really understand how the DSLR's Group AF modes etc are really different in practice from Z AF modes, especially these new Z modes....

Similar context for optics: compare the options available in the Greater Nikon Ecosystem: relevant Z against current F lenses etc.... in all the bewildering options

‘I agree but I would nuance that just a bit. Many of us shoot multiple systems so there is room for figuring out which system we enjoy shooting more (which is not the same as best or better). That’s not everybody’s case and not even a majority”s but it’s also not completely irrelevant.

 

[EricBowles]

Good one intersting food for thaught thankyou, so you dont feel they will come out with another dedicated full hi iso pro at some stage ?

I don't.

There is so little difference across cameras that you can't visually see any difference. The D3s was the last major change. There has been a little improvement since then - about a half stop in 10 years. More recently, the changes have come from the way the RAW image is processed in the camera. At higher ISO levels noise is slightly suppressed (evidenced by stair steps in the noise to ISO curve that would otherwise be linear). I understand that is continuing based on AI with the Z9 differentiating between noise suppression for detail-less areas and the ability to identify the in focus subject and areas with detail.

 

[Jfab1]

‘I agree but I would nuance that just a bit. Many of us shoot multiple systems so there is room for figuring out which system we enjoy shooting more (which is not the same as best or better). That’s not everybody’s case and not even a majority”s but it’s also not completely irrelevant.

Not completely irrelevant but probably better served in a separate thread.

 

[fcotterill]

Valid point. In the appropriate threads...

‘I agree but I would nuance that just a bit. Many of us shoot multiple systems so there is room for figuring out which system we enjoy shooting more (which is not the same as best or better). That’s not everybody’s case and not even a majority”s but it’s also not completely irrelevant.

Absolutely Correct IMHO - pertinently https://bcgforums.com/index.php?threads/nikon-z9-vs-sony-a1-which-one.11151/post-114654

Not completely irrelevant but probably better served in a separate thread.

 

[sid_19911991]

One of the better Z9 reviews with plenty of footage.

 

[Whiskeyman]

Why is everyone arguing over a camera the no one has used. It seems to be a fight about a personal vision that people think the camera will be.

Because people are excited by it?

 

[fcotterill]

This section summarizes which Pros are testing the Z9 in the wild over extended periods:

 

[DougC]

One of the better Z9 reviews with plenty of footage.

Someone send this guy a nail clipper.

 

[Darwin]

Someone send this guy a nail clipper.

It's a cultural thing.

 

[zule11]

Nikon Z - 100-400mm Lens

Matt Granger, testing on Z9