Same focusing problem on all mirrorless cameras?

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I read in several threads that mirrorless cameras have a difficult time focusing on small objects, birds specifically, at times. This is most apparent when focusing first in the distance, then trying to re-focus on an object that is closer to the photographer.

I have never noticed this on my ancient D500. :)

Can this be problematic for bird photography? Don't want to find out after buying a Z9.

Many thanks.
 
There are two aspects of focus.

The first is easy - focus accuracy. When you do focus on the subject, is it consistent and sharp. Here mirrorless has a significant edge and is much more accurate. For perched subjects, static subjects, or slow movement, mirrorless has a big advantage. Even when there are misses, it's usually a small miss and often related to technique. Note - this does not mean every image is sharp as there are a lot of variables other than the camera's focus. Even focus working perfectly has a distribution of errors but that distribution is much narrower with mirrorless than a DSLR. Generally there is no need for AF fine tuning with mirrorless.

The other aspect is focus acquisition. This usually includes a combination of focus speed and focus on the intended target. DSLR cameras use Phase Detect AF and a separate focus sensor. Mirrorless cameras have focus on the sensor based mainly on contrast and in some cases subject detection. DSLR cameras are usually a little faster to focus because they have a dedicated focus sensor. Your D500 also has a separate processor for focus, but the D5 with a very similar sensor and processor focuses faster - largely because it provides more power to the processor. With the most advanced mirrorless cameras (Z9, A1, R3) - you have virtually concurrent focus and readout from the sensor for the viewfinder or LCD. With other cameras it's going to vary and there is more of a lag. Confusing things more, the viewfinder and related AF display lags image focus slightly, so the camera can focus faster than it can also display in the EVF. On top of that, there are a number of technique issues to help the camera focus quickly. If you ignore appropriate settings and techniques, focus may be slower or fail more often. These cameras are not "point and shoot" devices - they may work 90% of the time, but if you encounter the other 10% you need to quickly have a plan.

More recently, cameras have been advancing subject recognition. The flagship cameras are more advanced than other models, but the most advanced cameras are often high end professional television or video cameras. For example, TV cameras can follow a player based on the number on the jersey while photo cameras follow based on subject detection, color, and contrast. Nikon has a series of subject recognition priorities - body, head, then the eye. Eye only matters after the camera has identified and acquired a face. With wildlife, the camera recognizes that it is an animal, what the animal is, then the body, head and eye. For eye detect, results are much better with good lighting such as a catchlight in the eye, but if the subject is large in the frame, it can identify the eye in a profile view. The same is true for tracking - tracking a small subject with a busy background may be very difficult, but a large subject filling the frame with a clean background becomes very easy. My experience is the camera does a great job if the subject is 1/3 of the frame, but much worse if the subject is small in the frame.

My experience is even with the Z6 or Z7ii, I'm able to focus on songbirds in a wooded setting, shorebirds, wading birds, and any kind of perched or slowly moving bird. Flight depends on the size, predictability, speed, lighting, and background of the subject. I also find that my success rate improves a lot if I am very practiced in tracking birds in flight, and much worse without practice.

You should be able to generally keep a Dynamic or Single AF point box on the subject while it's flying, and if you can the camera can invoke advanced capabilities (this is even if you are using a different mode - just an example of the degree of proficiency good photographers have for flight). If you struggle to keep a bird in the frame, the camera is not a magic answer and you'll need to work on technique even if you have a great camera.

For what I shoot, the mirrorless cameras are much more effective than the D500 or D850. Most of my subjects are not fast moving small birds in flight. If that is what you are photographing, the flagship cameras are the most advanced, but enthusiast level models are either available now or will be available very shortly. As a rule of thumb, new cameras almost always have technology upgrades.
 
Most of them have the issue of driving focus in to a small, grossly OOF bird when currently focused further out. Olympus OM-1 doesn't have this issue. The other cameras have it to varying degrees. Z9 now allows one to program a custom button to recall a set focus distance which one would set at a closer distance and hit that button if the lens is struggling to drive focus to the near object. Sony doesn't suffer much from this if you use a smaller AF point...usually Small Flex Spot or Expand Flex Spot will "see" the OOF near bird and drive in. But in wider AF modes like Zone and Wide it will stay on the background.
 
Most of them have the issue of driving focus in to a small, grossly OOF bird when currently focused further out. Olympus OM-1 doesn't have this issue. The other cameras have it to varying degrees. Z9 now allows one to program a custom button to recall a set focus distance which one would set at a closer distance and hit that button if the lens is struggling to drive focus to the near object. Sony doesn't suffer much from this if you use a smaller AF point...usually Small Flex Spot or Expand Flex Spot will "see" the OOF near bird and drive in. But in wider AF modes like Zone and Wide it will stay on the background.
This is pretty common with fast lenses and focus on sensor. Cameras all need contrast for focus. If the sensor is starting with a completely out of focus image, it has to guess what your subject might be and hunt for it. The solution is to pre-focus near the right distance or at least far enough away so there is some subject visibility even if it is blurred.

In the case of Wide modes (Nikon terminology) it's very hard to make them focus on the background because they are designed to focus on the nearest subject within the AF box. I can't remember the last time I picked up a background using wide mode - maybe in early 2019 before the focus system firmware updates in May 2019 for the Z6/Z7. The more likely miss is it picks up a blade of grass or a twig in front of the subject, and my workaround is to switch to Dynamic AF.
 
I read in several threads that mirrorless cameras have a difficult time focusing on small objects, birds specifically, at times. This is most apparent when focusing first in the distance, then trying to re-focus on an object that is closer to the photographer.

I have never noticed this on my ancient D500. :)

Can this be problematic for bird photography? Don't want to find out after buying a Z9.

Many thanks.
I think the mirrorless issue Mark is referring to is with a fast lens and the subject is completely out of focus, all mirrorless struggle to recognise the subject as the subject, as it is almost completely blurred out. Dslr’s do not have this issue, as do not use sensor to focus.

The work around is to focus on ground closer than subject and then re-acquire subject, manual focus rack to closer point and re-acquire subject or where lens have programmable button, set preset af distance closer than normal subject. Recent firmware updates try to change af bias to closest object where struggle to find af.

Here is a video by Scott Keys on the Z9, but this issue effects all mirrorless

Here is also an article by Thom Hogan on Dslr vs mirrorless Af.

Nikon Z pdaf is in alternate rows like sony, vs canon has dual pixel. In certain cercumstances, row pdaf functions more like a non cross dslr af sensor, so it helps to tilt camera slightly where struggling to obtain Af. I cannot locate the article by Thom
 
The one area where all mirrorless cameras have a problem is catching action at a desired point. Steve Perry identifies this in his latest book about mirrorless camera focusing. I had noticed the problem in passing but had not keyed in on it until I read his book: There is a split second time lag as the camera sensor transmits the image to the viewfinder. In Steve's example, he was trying to photograph the instant a woodpecker struck a tree but when he saw the impact in the viewfinder, the bird was already pulling away for another hit so the camera missed the point of impact.
 
As someone who has yet to give mirrorless a go, here's what I'm wondering.

Every DSLR I've ever used will have problems focusing on a near, completely out of focus subject when the focus is out near infinity. I've used the focus on the ground near the subject method mentioned by mirrorless owners as a work around to the lack of focus in their cameras.More often I just grab the focus ring and get rough focus before letting the camera AF from there.

What I'm wondering is if this problem is more pronounced in current mirrorless cameras than in a DSLR?
 
The one area where all mirrorless cameras have a problem is catching action at a desired point. Steve Perry identifies this in his latest book about mirrorless camera focusing. I had noticed the problem in passing but had not keyed in on it until I read his book: There is a split second time lag as the camera sensor transmits the image to the viewfinder. In Steve's example, he was trying to photograph the instant a woodpecker struck a tree but when he saw the impact in the viewfinder, the bird was already pulling away for another hit so the camera missed the point of impact.
This is true to a point with some cameras, but one of the Nikon Ambassadors reportedly was photographing the Kansas City Royals baseball game from the pit with the other photographers. He told the group - all regulars - that he was going to use the Z9 and capture the instant of the ball striking the bat on every pitch - both hits and foul balls. By the seventh inning the other photographers were about to kill him because he had captured 100% of the hits and foul balls including every foul tip - and was telling them about it. He was shooting the 120 fps JPG - but exposures and white balance were the same so there was no need to shoot raw. In addition, he was able to tag every image with the point of contact in the camera so he did not have lots of images to go through later.

In addition, with the Z9 you have the ability to capture a half second of action prior to starting your burst. If you really need precise timing, you can get it every time.
 
As someone who has yet to give mirrorless a go, here's what I'm wondering.

Every DSLR I've ever used will have problems focusing on a near, completely out of focus subject when the focus is out near infinity. I've used the focus on the ground near the subject method mentioned by mirrorless owners as a work around to the lack of focus in their cameras.More often I just grab the focus ring and get rough focus before letting the camera AF from there.

What I'm wondering is if this problem is more pronounced in current mirrorless cameras than in a DSLR?
Yes, it is much more pronounced. I also experienced this with certain DSLRs and certain lenses but not too often. With MILCs it is something that jumps out at you immediately. There have been many complaints over the years and many a YT video complaining about this "feature" of on sensor PDAF systems found in MILCs.
 
As someone who has yet to give mirrorless a go, here's what I'm wondering.

Every DSLR I've ever used will have problems focusing on a near, completely out of focus subject when the focus is out near infinity. I've used the focus on the ground near the subject method mentioned by mirrorless owners as a work around to the lack of focus in their cameras.More often I just grab the focus ring and get rough focus before letting the camera AF from there.

What I'm wondering is if this problem is more pronounced in current mirrorless cameras than in a DSLR?
I use this workaround with my mirrorless camera. I also try to pre-focus so the camera does not start with a completely out of focus blur. Each camera is a little different in terms of focus speed. The flagship cameras are all pretty fast while other cameras can be slower. It also depends a bit on the focus motor in the lens, whether you are using a new lens or an older lens, whether you are using an adapter or native lens, etc.

I would not put too much weight on old complaints about AF speed since the newer cameras and newest firmware has changed a lot. If you have a specific camera and lens combination in mind, it can make the discussion a lot more relevant. You would also logically learn the techniques required to get the best AF performance out of your gear, and with good technique AF does not keep you from getting the shot.
 
I think some people want the camera to be magic where the reality is that it is just a computer driven machine. The operator still has to know how to work the thing. On my Canon I have one button set to change the focus area, one to activate the regular auto focus and another to look for an eye at the spot I've aimed the regular focus (Or head or body if no eye). If it misses, as it does, I quickly re-orient and try again. Sometimes the magic works and sometimes the eye is too small or too far away or there is not enough contrast. Manual focus works also in a pinch, with the focusing guides in the viewfinder it is pretty good.
 
Light hearted take on all cameras, which is also tools, notwithstanding AI algorithms in the exposure and latterly autofocus

This Machine has No Brain Sheetbending machinerd.jpg
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I read in several threads that mirrorless cameras have a difficult time focusing on small objects, birds specifically, at times. This is most apparent when focusing first in the distance, then trying to re-focus on an object that is closer to the photographer.

I have never noticed this on my ancient D500. :)

Can this be problematic for bird photography? Don't want to find out after buying a Z9.

Many thanks.
 
Pretty much what @EricBowles said. As he said the body lens combo makes a difference. The users experience and practice is important in bird photography as a whole let alone BIF.

Bird photography is 90% of what I do. I am a run and gun bird ID photographer and shoot hand held 99% of the time.

I used D500, D850 with the grip and big battery in both cases and D4s and D6 before going mirrorless. I used various lenses, Tamron 150-600 G2, Sigman 50-600 sport, Nikon 500 pf, Nikon 600 f/4E.

The Z9 with the latest firmware update with the viewfinder at 120fps has no noticeable lag for me.

My Z9 paired with my Z 800 PF is the best small bird photography combo I have had.

My other lens used less often is the Z100-400 and I will most likely get a Z 200-600 or something like that from Tamron when they are available.
 
This is pretty common with fast lenses and focus on sensor. Cameras all need contrast for focus. If the sensor is starting with a completely out of focus image, it has to guess what your subject might be and hunt for it. The solution is to pre-focus near the right distance or at least far enough away so there is some subject visibility even if it is blurred.

In the case of Wide modes (Nikon terminology) it's very hard to make them focus on the background because they are designed to focus on the nearest subject within the AF box. I can't remember the last time I picked up a background using wide mode - maybe in early 2019 before the focus system firmware updates in May 2019 for the Z6/Z7. The more likely miss is it picks up a blade of grass or a twig in front of the subject, and my workaround is to switch to Dynamic AF.
That has not been my experience with my Z 6 II. Whether it’s in wide large or wide small, if the subject doesn’t take up a large percentage of the area box, the camera will jump to the background every time. It doesn’t matter if the background is water, grass, trees, or brush, and it matters not whether the subject is moving or stationary. Wide small or wide large = an out of focus subject and in focus surroundings unless the subject dominates the box. But I imagine that’s how one is supposed to use those area modes, with subjects similarly sized as the boxes and not those noticeably smaller than the box. Dynamic works great for smaller targets, though.
 
On the OM-1 the camera has a problem with a near object in the frame (shooting a bird through a fence for example). However, in most cases the camera will focus on the bird if it can recognize it, not jump to the background.
 
That has not been my experience with my Z 6 II. Whether it’s in wide large or wide small, if the subject doesn’t take up a large percentage of the area box, the camera will jump to the background every time. It doesn’t matter if the background is water, grass, trees, or brush, and it matters not whether the subject is moving or stationary. Wide small or wide large = an out of focus subject and in focus surroundings unless the subject dominates the box. But I imagine that’s how one is supposed to use those area modes, with subjects similarly sized as the boxes and not those noticeably smaller than the box. Dynamic works great for smaller targets, though.
I do not have nearly the experience that @EricBowles does but I did notice a significant improvement with the firmware update to 1.4 when I tested it right after that. However by then I was using my Z9 most of the time so have not really given the Z6II a lot of time in the field and when I do I am usually in single point AF.
 
I read in several threads that mirrorless cameras have a difficult time focusing on small objects, birds specifically, at times. This is most apparent when focusing first in the distance, then trying to re-focus on an object that is closer to the photographer.

I have never noticed this on my ancient D500. :)

Can this be problematic for bird photography? Don't want to find out after buying a Z9.

Many thanks.
Most mirrorless have contrast detect focusing which is less effective in low light and small subjects.
DSLRs mostly use phase detect that has less difficulty there.
The Z9 is outstanding and has no trouble in this area...🦘
 
Most mirrorless have contrast detect focusing which is less effective in low light and small subjects.
DSLRs mostly use phase detect that has less difficulty there.
The Z9 is outstanding and has no trouble in this area...🦘

I really only know Canon well and I know the R5 uses phase detect AF. I haven't had trouble focusing at all. It is rated to -6 EV which is better than most dslr. I imagine Nikon and Sony are quite good as well.
 
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