180-600 Disappointment!

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In the ideal (and very simplified) optical model, the rays of light reflected by the subject you are trying to capture would enter the lens in a nice parallel way. When you get heat distortion, what happens is that you have areas where air has different thermal properties and light suffers refraction because of that. This bends the light and causes it to enter the lens at various angles.
I think the more important point is that light refracted by heat disturbances creates visible artifacts in the scene, it's the same mechanism that creates mirages that are visible and will be recorded by film or a camera sensor. Those images are actually in the scene just like a tree as posted above and will be recorded.

In the case of heat disturbances they don't tend to be well organized like a mirage but are more random, turbulent refractions but the way the scene is disturbed optically is real and happens out well away from the camera and lens and is recorded regardless of lens quality. Whether an inferior lens design would have even more problems seems secondary to the distortion being a real physical optical phenomena out in the scene itself which makes it hard to remove through any kind of lens design or added filtering at the lens.

This all would have been in accordance with my understanding, BUT I have certainly read plenty of reports from people who upgraded from a Sigma or Nikon telezoom to a 500pf or some other prime and say they started getting far more consistent results in worse conditions hot days, etc., so I wonder why that would be.
Hard to say without being there to see it happen but seems like the kind of thing that's open to an awful lot of confirmation bias. IOW, you spend a lot of money on a lens upgrade and start seeing all kinds of improvement even in situations where the lens itself may not be the reason. When it comes to things like atmospheric distortion and heat shimmer it can vary widely even on similar temperature days across similar distances so comparing one lens to another days, weeks or months apart it's really hard to say what's happening.
 
Personally I have found most of my sharpness issues with the 180-600 to be when photographing subjects at extreme distances. Also, when using both TC’s at even greater distances. Very similar to results from the 800PF before I sold it. I think we often tend to push a particular lens beyond its capabilities. Although we would like to be able to shoot at 600mm and 6.3, better results will alway be in the 500 to 550mm range at 7.1 to 8. Once I learned to respect its limitations, the quality, sharpness and detail of my shots have improved significantly.
 
Personally I have found most of my sharpness issues with the 180-600 to be when photographing subjects at extreme distances. Also, when using both TC’s at even greater distances. Very similar to results from the 800PF before I sold it. I think we often tend to push a particular lens beyond its capabilities. Although we would like to be able to shoot at 600mm and 6.3, better results will alway be in the 500 to 550mm range at 7.1 to 8. Once I learned to respect its limitations, the quality, sharpness and detail of my shots have improved significantly.
FWIW, I think a lot of photographers associate longer focal length lenses with the ability to shoot longer distances and that can lead to the kinds of things you saw. Personally I think of reaching for my longest focal length lenses or adding a TC to a telephoto lens not because the subjects are extremely far away but because they're smaller subjects at moderate distances. Yeah, some things like park set back regulations on bears and wolves complicates that a bit where we sometimes need longer focal lengths to remain within the rules.

A long time ago I adopted a personal rule of thumb to avoid adding a TC to my 600mm lens for subjects much larger than a basketball. That was when I shot early Nikon DSLRs with DX sensors so maybe it's more like avoiding the TC and long lens combo on subjects much larger than a beer cooler when talking about full frame cameras. But the idea is the same, if I need 800+ mm of lens for a full body shot of a Moose or Bull Elk I'm likely just too dang far away and shooting through too much air, dust, water vapor even if heat shimmer isn't a big problem at the time and of course it gets worse if there's heat shimmer issues.
 
FWIW, I think a lot of photographers associate longer focal length lenses with the ability to shoot longer distances and that can lead to the kinds of things you saw. Personally I think of reaching for my longest focal length lenses or adding a TC to a telephoto lens not because the subjects are extremely far away but because they're smaller subjects at moderate distances. Yeah, some things like park set back regulations on bears and wolves complicates that a bit where we sometimes need longer focal lengths to remain within the rules.

A long time ago I adopted a personal rule of thumb to avoid adding a TC to my 600mm lens for subjects much larger than a basketball. That was when I shot early Nikon DSLRs with DX sensors so maybe it's more like avoiding the TC and long lens combo on subjects much larger than a beer cooler when talking about full frame cameras. But the idea is the same, if I need 800+ mm of lens for a full body shot of a Moose or Bull Elk I'm likely just to dang far away and shooting through too much air, dust, water vapor even if heat shimmer isn't a big problem at the time and of course it gets worse if there's heat shimmer issues.
I can relate to this idea. I certainly have found my 200-500 generally weak for subjects that are at greater distances.

Where I am less certain of how to interpret things is in what seem like they're a more medium or even close range.

Essentially, I've found this lens to produce extraordinarily sharp images for subjects that really can fill an FX frame, like a very close up portrait of a bird's head for instance. However, when the subject is not filling it in the same way, even if it seems like it's relatively close and even if it's still a reasonable size in the frame, the sharpness of the detail often disappoints a great deal. For instance, songbird that are maybe 15-20 feet away which will more or less fill the DX frame on my Z8 don't seem to stand up to even a relatively small amount of zooming in or cropping. For instance, if I take a 19MP DX sized image of a small woodpecker and crop so it fills a 15MP canvas, the details often start to look almost pixelated to my eye. I know filling the entire frame is always going to yield better results, but this still feels like a fairly precipitous drop in resolution to me and I wonder if it's a limitation of the lens, a fault of my copy, or normal for any lens (which seems hard to believe based on far more extreme crops I've seen people easily get away with and maintain better IQ) - and what upgrade path would be more likely to give me better results in these cases. If it's a flaw in the copy, maybe waiting for the 180-600. If it's a limitation of the lens design, maybe a 500pf. If it's just normal, maybe even a TC14 on the current lens, since it's clearly very sharp for larger subjects, or on a 500pf, or waiting for the 180-600s extra length.
 
I can relate to this idea. I certainly have found my 200-500 generally weak for subjects that are at greater distances.

Where I am less certain of how to interpret things is in what seem like they're a more medium or even close range.

Essentially, I've found this lens to produce extraordinarily sharp images for subjects that really can fill an FX frame, like a very close up portrait of a bird's head for instance. However, when the subject is not filling it in the same way, even if it seems like it's relatively close and even if it's still a reasonable size in the frame, the sharpness of the detail often disappoints a great deal. For instance, songbird that are maybe 15-20 feet away which will more or less fill the DX frame on my Z8 don't seem to stand up to even a relatively small amount of zooming in or cropping. For instance, if I take a 19MP DX sized image of a small woodpecker and crop so it fills a 15MP canvas, the details often start to look almost pixelated to my eye. I know filling the entire frame is always going to yield better results, but this still feels like a fairly precipitous drop in resolution to me and I wonder if it's a limitation of the lens, a fault of my copy, or normal for any lens (which seems hard to believe based on far more extreme crops I've seen people easily get away with and maintain better IQ) - and what upgrade path would be more likely to give me better results in these cases. If it's a flaw in the copy, maybe waiting for the 180-600. If it's a limitation of the lens design, maybe a 500pf. If it's just normal, maybe even a TC14 on the current lens, since it's clearly very sharp for larger subjects, or on a 500pf, or waiting for the 180-600s extra length.
Just to add to the mix, I tend to find AF accuracy better with more expensive lenses as well. That might be some of what you're noticing. It might be that the primes you'v used have had better AF consistency. (Note that I'm not saying you need to find tune the lens - that's a different problem - just that some lenses aren't as consistent as others).
 
I'm willing to bet when people get primes they also likely stepped up in bodies over the years, same with being more experienced, etc.

If we ran an experiment (somehow, magically the same conditions for 24 hours or whatever) with wildlife (that all stayed in the same spot, or flew in the same spot), I'd bet it turns out better bodies and better lenses both contribute to 'better IQ' (either via better focus system, or better quality glass, etc), with the end result still being less of a gain than people tend to think they might get.
 
FWIW, I think a lot of photographers associate longer focal length lenses with the ability to shoot longer distances and that can lead to the kinds of things you saw. Personally I think of reaching for my longest focal length lenses or adding a TC to a telephoto lens not because the subjects are extremely far away but because they're smaller subjects at moderate distances. Yeah, some things like park set back regulations on bears and wolves complicates that a bit where we sometimes need longer focal lengths to remain within the rules.

A long time ago I adopted a personal rule of thumb to avoid adding a TC to my 600mm lens for subjects much larger than a basketball. That was when I shot early Nikon DSLRs with DX sensors so maybe it's more like avoiding the TC and long lens combo on subjects much larger than a beer cooler when talking about full frame cameras. But the idea is the same, if I need 800+ mm of lens for a full body shot of a Moose or Bull Elk I'm likely just too dang far away and shooting through too much air, dust, water vapor even if heat shimmer isn't a big problem at the time and of course it gets worse if there's heat shimmer issues.
Bingo... I could have not stated this better.
Using a long lens to grab a distant object is useful to identify that object, and that's about it.
We use long lenses to make relatively close subjects stand out, blur the background, and enhance the prominence of the subject.
Having used an 800PF for almost a year, I've noticed that I never grab it to bring a small spec into view, but choose it to make something close more prominent in the composition. In the end, there is no substitute for good field craft.
I just acquired a 180-600 and will be testing it this week. It with the 400 f4.5 will be my "light" travel alternative to carrying the 800PF abroad. Furthermore, the zoom will allow me to vary my compositions more easily. However, as someone who as worked with the 200-400 f4 for almost a decade, I fully recognize that while the 180-600 may be the right lens to use, it will not always be the sharpest lens I could pull out of the bag.
cheers,
bruce
 
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Just to add to the mix, I tend to find AF accuracy better with more expensive lenses as well. That might be some of what you're noticing. It might be that the primes you'v used have had better AF consistency. (Note that I'm not saying you need to find tune the lens - that's a different problem - just that some lenses aren't as consistent as others).
@Steve with the introduction of the 600PF are you now reconsidering your use of the 180-600? I continue to believe that is represents a portable solution for international travel to places like Africa... or in my case Japan this winter. Pairing 180-600 lens with the faster 400mm f4.5 allows for fluid shifts as light and subject speed demands.
As I recall from your video, you were pretty impressed with the price to performance ratio of the lens.
Personally, I wish I still had my old 200-400 f4 around so I could compare the 180-600 to it.
cheers,
bruce
 
Looks pretty sharp to me

Z9 + ,180-600 f5.6-6.3 VR, 1/4000s f/8.0 at 600.0mm iso1000

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Z9 + ,180-600 f5.6-6.3 VR, 1/400s f/6.3 at 600.0mm iso400

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Z9 + ,180-600 f5.6-6.3 VR, 1/4000s f/6.3 at 600.0mm iso1400

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I only used my copy once and it was super sharp, no problem at all. I was shooting hummers on my porch. I did not keep it because it turned out to be heavier than I was willing to hold and would have made my camera pack too heavy to hoist up in the overhead bin. I've been shooting with the 500PF for a few years and I love how light that lens is and how easy it is to carry around. I have an order in for the mirrorless 600PF instead and someone bought my 180-600. Here's a pic shot with the lens, a hummer sitting and one in flight. I was happy with the performance.
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One thing I did notice, I turned off the VR and the lens wobbled all over the place so I quickly turned the higher VR setting back on and the lens was fine.
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I think the probably is atmospheric distortion. It will do some crazy stuff and sometimes we have to take pics and try to make the best of it and trying to get as little Heat distortion as possible.

Yesterday I was shooting a spray plane coming directly at me and I was having a lot of problems with distortion. I was shooting at about 2 in the afternoon on a cloudless day with the temperature about 75 degrees. The sun was to the SW of my back as I was shooting nearly straight north. I was shooting at 1/640th a second shutter speed with a 7.1 aperture on the Z9 with a 500pf. I was shooting in wide L in aircraft detection. Not sure how fast the plane was flying but if it is going 120 mph it is covering 176 feet per second or8.8 feet between frames shooting at 20 fps which is the frame rate I was shooting.

My guess during shooting that the between 300 ft to 150 feet distance from camera to plane was where distortion was decreasing. After I started looking at the pictures i felt like the distance was 150 feet or less where the distortion was ending. Here is a series of 5 photos from about a 3 second burst where I think you can see the distortion decrease. The last image is where the plane was just over and irrigation well that i know the distance is about 125 feet from well to camera. The well cannot be seen but it is there.

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One more thing, before I had the 500pf I used my Sigma 150-600 and could only get sharp images in the winter. Unfortunately we don't spray with and airplaned much in winter. When I did shoot it was best just to pull out the 70-200 f2.8
 
I think the probably is atmospheric distortion. It will do some crazy stuff and sometimes we have to take pics and try to make the best of it and trying to get as little Heat distortion as possible.

Yesterday I was shooting a spray plane coming directly at me and I was having a lot of problems with distortion. I was shooting at about 2 in the afternoon on a cloudless day with the temperature about 75 degrees. The sun was to the SW of my back as I was shooting nearly straight north. I was shooting at 1/640th a second shutter speed with a 7.1 aperture on the Z9 with a 500pf. I was shooting in wide L in aircraft detection. Not sure how fast the plane was flying but if it is going 120 mph it is covering 176 feet per second or8.8 feet between frames shooting at 20 fps which is the frame rate I was shooting.

My guess during shooting that the between 300 ft to 150 feet distance from camera to plane was where distortion was decreasing. After I started looking at the pictures i felt like the distance was 150 feet or less where the distortion was ending. Here is a series of 5 photos from about a 3 second burst where I think you can see the distortion decrease. The last image is where the plane was just over and irrigation well that i know the distance is about 125 feet from well to camera. The well cannot be seen but it is there.

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What would it come out if you used 180-600? Same conclusion? I guess.
 
I cannot really say. I know my Sigma 150-600 sport was almost unusable when the temps got in the upper 80's or 90's for longer shots at the 600 end.

But you've found other lenses to be more adequate in these same situations?

If so, this is the sort of thing I was commenting on earlier: for what reason would one lens have such a superior response to these sorts of conditions than others? The thoughts offered on this thus far do make sense, but I'm not sure I feel like they'd adequately explain so dramatic a difference as described here.
 
My illustrations were simply to show that heat distortion increases with distance. With the 500pf being a prime lens it is already much sharper than the Sigma 150-600. i think you could assume that the 180-600 would be sharper than the Sigma. I think the main thing is that the closer you get to the subject when heat distortion shows up is to get closer. I don't think I have ever been able to see the distances and where distortion began to disappear and i think that is because of the 20fps i was shooting.

As for using the 70-200 f2.8 you can shoot at closer distances and have to get yourself closer to the plane which is more dangerous due to getting the chemical on you. The chemicals we use are generally safe to a degree but that doesn't mean i want to get sprayed on me.
 
The Sigma 150-600 was a good lens and I got a lot of good shots with it. However I found myself shooting at 600mm most of the time. When the 500pf was first announced i decided to pre order it. After more and more came out and then get it in my hands it was such a pleasure to shoot and move and hike with. The Sigma got heavier everytime I used it. I've shot with a 200-500 a few times and it was never as good as the 500pf in sharpness, AFSpeed on a D500, and the weight and size of the lens. I figure you will see the same differences in the 600pf and the 180-600 zoom but the differences may not be as pronounced.

Probably the biggest variable to me is the size and AF speed. I got many shots on the 500pf that I couldn't have gotten with the zoom. At first I missed the versatility of the zoom but once i started shooting with the 500pf i didn't miss the zoom as much. Also I could get closer to my subjects much easier than my Sigma due to the size difference. Secondly the 500pf is very fast in initial focus lockon and the 600pf is supposed to be faster. That is another attribute that has allowed me to get some shots that i couldn't get with my sigma.

I have nothing against the new 180-600 zoom but my experience with the 500pf is the reason I am going with the 600pf.
 
Is it true for all or most Sigma 150-600 copies? P.S., I read your reply to my previous question and wonder if my ex-Sigma 150-600 copy suffers the same fraus...
I have no idea. My copy of the 150-600 was a good one and i think it was a better lens than the contemporary model. I got the Sigma when it first came out and about a year later they did a firmware update with the attachment that hooked it up to your computer. That firmware update made the lens a lot faster and sharper. However, i did more lens calibrations on that Sigma than any other lens i have owned.
 
I see you have no burden with $$$. :)
Lets just say that photography pays for much of my photography gear as I do a lot of photography of cotton in area and other crops. Its a niche market and there are not many people that do it and I get to sell to a lot of farm families. Also i don't play golf and generally don't have and expensive lifestyle.
 
Lets just say that photography pays for much of my photography gear as I do a lot of photography of cotton in area and other crops. Its a niche market and there are not many people that do it and I get to sell to a lot of farm families. Also i don't play golf and generally don't have and expensive lifestyle.
What exactly is it that you photograph for them? Their crops? The dusters? What is their need or requirement here?
 
I am pretty pleased with the 180-600. I used the Sigma SPort 150-600 on my D500's and then the Z9 . A good lens but needs to come with a gorilla for handholding. I am very pleased with the sharpness of the under $2,000 180-600.

I think it boils down to Occam's Razor - if you can use something simpler, like a prime, use that over a zoom.

However there are times when a zoom is indispensable.

I do a lot of bird photography from a kayak and zooming with my feet is npt an option. An opportunity arises and I need to photograph it before the bird takes flight. Sometimes the bird is close, sometimes far. This calls for a zoom lens and I find the 180-600 with its very good performance, light weight and internal zoom is terrific for these situations. Hiking for wildlife photography (in Delaware that's birds for me) when you can only carry maybe two cameras with different lenses another case where a zoom makes a lot of sense.

When I need the flexibility of a zoom to compose the image or achieve better "filling the frame" I use a the 180-600 zoom.

When I can zoom with my feet, I use a prime.
 
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