Advice for upgrading: D850 or mirrorless?

[BlackRockArt]

Hi Spencer, if I were you, I would rent the gear for a weekend to test it out before throwing money away. The R7 is a downgrade of the venerable Canon 7D, which is kind of disappointing, the 7D was a solid performer for wildlife. Also, RF 200-800mm is a full-frame lens, it's not designed for APS-C bodies.

Oliver

 

[Anjin San]

This is nothing against DSLRs…but the truth of the matter is that F mount and DSLRs are aged tech and the mirrorless bodies have better sensors, better processors, and better AF algorithms. That doesn’t mean that DSlRs can’t take good images…but for action or BIF the advantages that come with the Z bodies will simply give you more keepers percentage…and the newer Z lenses with wider throat and more sophisticated optical design software are pretty much across the board better than F lenses. That said…I can’t really recommend spending any money on F gear at this point because there won’t be nothing new in F ever at this point…despite the fact that F gear still takes good images, just fewer of them than Z gear. And that said…OP simply needs a longer lens…that appears to be his biggest issue…and I agree that anything less than a Z8 doesn’t provide a significant improvement in body performance over wha5 he’s got now. If I was him at this point…I would get a Z8 and a 180-600, or a Z8 with a 600PF and a 100-400 if budget allows…and sell the F gear to help pay for it. Like it or not…Z lenses and bodies are the future and the FPS and AF will put more keepers on the card than less capable gear. I’m not going to say DSLRs are worthless…they’re not any more worthless than film cameras are…but just like bag cell phones got replaced by flip phones which got replaced by smartphones…technology marches on. I’ll admit that mirrorless takes a little getting used to...but once over that it’s got far better features overall.

 

[BlackRockArt]

This is nothing against DSLRs…but the truth of the matter is that F mount and DSLRs are aged tech and the mirrorless bodies have better sensors, better processors, and better AF algorithms. That doesn’t mean that DSlRs can’t take good images…but for action or BIF the advantages that come with the Z bodies will simply give you more keepers percentage…and the newer Z lenses with wider throat and more sophisticated optical design software are pretty much across the board better than F lenses. That said…I can’t really recommend spending any money on F gear at this point because there won’t be nothing new in F ever at this point…despite the fact that F gear still takes good images, just fewer of them than Z gear. And that said…OP simply needs a longer lens…that appears to be his biggest issue…and I agree that anything less than a Z8 doesn’t provide a significant improvement in body performance over wha5 he’s got now. If I was him at this point…I would get a Z8 and a 180-600, or a Z8 with a 600PF and a 100-400 if budget allows…and sell the F gear to help pay for it. Like it or not…Z lenses and bodies are the future and the FPS and AF will put more keepers on the card than less capable gear. I’m not going to say DSLRs are worthless…they’re not any more worthless than film cameras are…but just like bag cell phones got replaced by flip phones which got replaced by smartphones…technology marches on. I’ll admit that mirrorless takes a little getting used to...but once over that it’s got far better features overall.

100% agree.

The new Z bodies have 490 focus points covering 90% of the frame, coupled with complete silent shooting and face-eye detection, the photography experience is simply different.

I was taking photos of a group of American Bushtits with a mirrorless camera from 6 feet away in total silence as before it was unimaginable, maybe for landscape photographers? even though it's changing rapidly; 7 years ago most were using DSLRs, and now half of the photographers use mirrorless.

Oliver

 

[EricBowles]

Hi Spencer

A lot of the discussion is about bird photography, but the specific locations and types of birds makes a big difference. The AF performance of all the Z cameras is more accurate for perched subjects than with F-mount cameras. If your subject is small in the frame requiring cropping, it may simply be too far away and a new camera will have minimal benefit. There are a lot of things you can do with an older Z camera from a technique standpoint that will pay off in terms of better results.

From a strategy standpoint, does it really make sense to invest more in older F-mount cameras and lenses. Yes - they work with the FTZ - but do you want to continue to invest in lenses that require an adapter? Especially if you are considering future upgrades to Z lenses like the 180-600.

Something like the Z50 would be a good upgrade from your current D5600 and position you to move forward very economically. You could get the Z50, 16-50, and 50-250 lenses for $1000-1100. Add the FTZ and you can still use your 200-500. That gives you a solid base and allows future upgrades to addition to be in the Z system while continuing to benefit from the lenses you own. It also allows you to avoid a lot of expense from churn in used and new gear.

The D500 was a very good camera when released, but it's starting to be a bit dated. It does not have any of the subject detection or advanced focus modes of the newer cameras. It's just a 20 MP camera - fine for most uses but with limited ability to handle cropping or low light. Of the cameras being discussed, the D500 was the first one I sold. And even on a D500, the 200-500 lens is one of the slower focusing lenses available, so you are offsetting a fast camera with a slow lens that does not work very well with a teleconverter.

 

[AlanB313]

I think there has been some good advice here from Eric, Anjin San, Blackrock and others.

I'm speaking from the perspective as someone in the same situation as you are, except I have a d500. I added a 500mm PF and was quite delighted with the increase in quality of my photos. I still think I have a lot to learn using this camera with the 500mm, a 300mm pf (with 1.4TCIII) and my Tamron 150-600mm G2.

In my case, I really want a 2nd body for primarily landscape, flowers, some macro, and mostly non-birding and wildlife photography. I don't want to be frequently changing lenses in the desert or on dusty trails. I'm thinking of adding a d850 for these other uses since I have some nice F-mount FX lenses. I also think I'd enjoy having a lower native ISO, more dynamic range and larger FX format. A used good quality d850 might be an affordable way to get into this earlier rather than waiting until I can afford mirrorless (after a computer upgrade). One thing holding me back right now is the prices of a good quality d850 are still about half of a z8, if prices come down more, I may go ahead this Spring.

In my thinking, when I do upgrade to mirrorless, it will be either a z8 or z9. The purpose will be primarily for wildlife, at least at first. After this investment, I'll need to use F glass for quite a while. I think of this process as kind of like a "ladder"....if I just wait and go whole hog on the z8 and new Z glass, I'll be waiting a lot longer.

That said, I encourage you to go to a reputable camera store and discuss it with them. Put your lenses on a z8. Handle the camera and get a feel for it. I did this and was VERY impressed. The EVF is amazing. Shooting silently is amazing. The feel of the camera with its programmable buttons was great. I'm not at all worried about battery life. I plan on renting one later when Spring comes so that I can try it out over a weekend. My local store will comp the rental if I buy one, so if I fall in love and decide it's worth sleeping in the garage or truck after my spouse finds out, at least the rental cost isn't added in.

One outcome of trying my lenses is that I highly doubt I'd stack a 1.4TC onto the FTZ. I tried this with my 300mm pf. It just seemed like it was way out there and defeated the lightweight purpose and shorter size of the 300mm pf. (I love this lens and plan on keeping it for use with the z8.) The 500mm pf felt more comfortable on the z8 with the FTZ but is still extended.

I know that I will make the switch to a z8 or z9 eventually. If I do, I could keep the d850 for landscape, etc. I'd probably also keep the d500 as a backup body because by then it won't bring much on the used market. So my advice (as someone in the same boat) is to go mirrorless if you can afford it. If not, you will LOVE a d500.

And I highly recommend the 500mm pf, it is much lighter and faster than your 200-500. There's one for sale on this forum I think. Just so you know, I bought a used one (for $2k, cheaper now) and had Nikon do a full service on it including fixing a bent mount ($300 total).
Good luck, Alan

 

[JAJohnson]

As for camera bodies, both the D500 and D850 are excellent DSLRs for wildlife, and compelling arguments can be made for either. However, given how the industry has shifted to mirrorless, and where you are at the moment, if I were in your situation I’d just save my money and eventually purchase a Z8 or Z9, which would position you for the future and open up a whole new stable of very capable lenses. My guess is that within a year or two, you’ll be able to find good, used copies of both mirrorless cameras at a significant discount to their current list price. In the meanwhile, just enjoy the wildlife experience.

Nikon USA often has refurbished Z9s for $1000 below list price. I expect refurbished Z8s to be available mid 2024 or so. I’ve also seen reputable retailers list gently used Z9s and Z8s at a discount from list, usually $200 to $400 or so.

 

[Spencer14]

Nikon USA often has refurbished Z9s for $1000 below list price. I expect refurbished Z8s to be available mid 2024 or so. I’ve also seen reputable retailers list gently used Z9s and Z8s at a discount from list, usually $200 to $400 or so.

I took a quick look and there are some used Z9s going for as little as $4200-$4300, vs $5500 for a new one. If those used/refurbished Z8s have a similar price drop, they might be around $2500-$3000, which I could be able to afford by mid 2024. I could toss on a ZTF converter and use my 200-500 until I can afford some Z glass, probably the 180-600 zoom. It may not be quite as sharp as a prime, but I've read good things about it, and 600m on a 46 mpx body will yield a nice resolution boost from my DSLR setup while providing similar reach with far better AF. Would the Z8 and 180-600 work with a Z-1.4X TC?

I won't be purchasing anything anytime soon. Right now I'm trying to figure out my best possible options so I can plan how I'm going to save over the coming months. A D500 is tempting, but if I'm just gonna upgrade to mirrorless anyways, I might as well just save that $900 to put towards the Z8.

 

[Cameron T]

I took a quick look and there are some used Z9s going for as little as $4200-$4300, vs $5500 for a new one. If those used/refurbished Z8s have a similar price drop, they might be around $2500-$3000, which I could be able to afford by mid 2024. I could toss on a ZTF converter and use my 200-500 until I can afford some Z glass, probably the 180-600 zoom. It may not be quite as sharp as a prime, but I've read good things about it, and 600m on a 46 mpx body will yield a nice resolution boost from my DSLR setup while providing similar reach with far better AF. Would the Z8 and 180-600 work with a Z-1.4X TC?

Yes, and it works really well. I've posted a lot of examples in the 180-600 topic here, and I feel like all of them have had the TC on.

There is likely some copy variation, so that will have some impact.

 

[StefanSC]

In my case, I really want a 2nd body for primarily landscape, flowers, some macro, and mostly non-birding and wildlife photography. I don't want to be frequently changing lenses in the desert or on dusty trails. I'm thinking of adding a d850 for these other uses since I have some nice F-mount FX lenses. I also think I'd enjoy having a lower native ISO, more dynamic range and larger FX format. A used good quality d850 might be an affordable way to get into this earlier rather than waiting until I can afford mirrorless (after a computer upgrade). One thing holding me back right now is the prices of a good quality d850 are still about half of a z8, if prices come down more, I may go ahead this Spring.

A D810 is under 800$ these days and for landscape, flowers and macro there isn't much between it and a D850... Just saying.

I won't be purchasing anything anytime soon. Right now I'm trying to figure out my best possible options so I can plan how I'm going to save over the coming months. A D500 is tempting, but if I'm just gonna upgrade to mirrorless anyways, I might as well just save that $900 to put towards the Z8.

Here's another way to look at it it: if you get a D500 in spring for ~900$ and sell it for ~600$ in winter next year to move to a Z8 you'd have lost ~300$ (not counting inflation here).

Are all the missed shots and frustration with your current rig worth the ~300$ saved?

 

[Whiskeyman]

If you can afford to, buy mirrorless. I don't see me ever buying another DSLR unless there is a monumental change in circumstances.

 

[MadMikeOne]

If AF improvement for BIF is one of your major desires then no Nikon mirrorless shy of a Z8 is going to help. However it would be very inexpensive to move to a D7500 or used D500 for much improved AF as well as higher fps.

My thinking was along these same lines. I have a D500 and the 500mm PF lens & love it. Also decided to upgrade about 1 1/2 years ago to the Z9 (purchased the FTZii adaptor so I could shoot with my F mount lenses) and currently shoot with both cameras & an assortment of F mount zoom lenses. The Z8 is (allegedly) a less expensive version of the Z9, so I would consider upgrading to the Z8 & an FTZii adaptor if it fits your budget. If not, I'd seriously consider a low shutter count D500. The fps is higher than the D850, costs less, and is an excellent bird & wildlife camera.

 

[DaveyDitzer]

I’d honestly recommend a D500! Still the best DX sized sensor DSLR EVER. Such a great camera and so affordable now.

And as many have said, the D850 is the finest FF DSLR made

 

[cr_wildlife]

I would strongly recommend the D850 over the D500. The advantages of the D500 are smaller size/weight and cost. Note that I did not say reach! The D850 has a 45.7 megapixel sensor, so when you shoot in DX mode, you have about the same number pixels in the frame as the D500 does. Thus, despite what you read so often, a crop sensor camera with a 24 or so megapixel sensor has NO REACH advantage over a full sensor camera with a 45 or so megapixel sensor. Additionally, when the subject fills the frame or you are cropping less than to DX size, you have MORE pixels on the subject with the full frame camera. The advantages of the D850 are the sensor, more pixels on your subject, and greater possible crops. My first camera was a D500, but I simply stopped using it once I had a D850. I want to emphasize that I have am NOT criticizing those who use a D500. The cost and weight advantage may be a high consideration. Lastly, I would suggest that you might want to wait until you can either save up for a Z8, currently a good bit above your price limit, or wait for next version of the other Z cameras to see what their autofocus is like. The advantages of mirrorless are subject detection autofocus (a game changer for wildlife, especially for birds in flight), focus spots that cover almost all of the sensor rather than a small area of the sensor, and

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

much faster frame rates, amongst others. Remember what Steve says, when shooting at 10 frames a second, you are getting 1/2 of the images that you get at 20 frames per second. Seems obvious, but sometimes you only get one image in a series that is just right, and you will miss it 50% of the time at 10 frames compared to 20. The sandhill crane image that I recently posted on the photo forum and shown here was the only image that I kept out of a series of more than 100 images taken a 20 frames/second.
Well, that's quite a wordy response. To summarize, if you want to purchase now, get a new ($2500) or used D850. Or wait until you can afford a Z8 or wait until the new iterations of the other Z cameras come out to see if they have better subject detection than the current models. I hope that it is helpful.

 

[Johan Schmidt]

Seems like the overwhelming consensus is either a D500, or wait longer for a Z8/9. My only concern about the D500 is its lower resolution compared to the D5600, when I'm already a little concerned about IQ, but perhaps the better processor and AF will balance it out and the IQ would end up comparable or improved.

@jcollins it's not incredibly urgent. Even if I go with a sub-$900 used D500, I wouldn't upgrade for a few more months. I'd still use my D5600 after an upgrade for macro with my 105mm because of the built-in flash. You raise a good point about how long I'd be satisfied for. I'd probably want to transition to mirrorless eventually when I have enough money to do so. Maybe I should hold off on an upgrade until then, or maybe an upgrade to the D500 within the next 6 months is fine since it's a far smaller monetary investment than a Z8/9 and the AF capabilities still hold up well to this day.

@Steve W I'm not really concerned about having to shoot in f/8 since that's what I normally shoot at/around anyways. What I am concerned about are reductions to AF and IQ, especially since the D500 has a lower resolution than my D5600, so any additional loss in IQ would be noticeable. However, the 1.4X TCE would be the cheapest way to surpass the resolution of the D5600 with a D500 and 200-500mm. Should I even be concerned about the D500 being 20.9 mpx vs 24.1 mp?

The D500 is great in good light, not so much when the ISO goes up - however, there are so many good noise reduction apps out there to counter that point.

 

[Aston]

If I’m not too late to the debate, I have both a D850 and a D500 with the 500mm PF prime lens. I love the D500 but the D850 simply outperforms it in both image quality and focus accuracy & speed. Get the D850 and set up a memory bank dedicated to bird photography where you can set it to crop mode - get DX field of view on a better image sensor for the same or lower file size AND better focus performance and low light/ISO quality. I have seen the whole debate about number of pixels on each in full or crop mode, and it’s a whole red herring. Both give plenty of pixels but the image quality difference is tangible. I carry both bodies in my backpack but usually the D850 is the one on the end of the lens. I’ve shot 170,000 frames on the D500 and 140,000 on the D850…difference being the frame rates I think. So my opinion is based on a lot of experience with both combos. Hope it helps.

 

[DaveyDitzer]

I currently have a Nikon D5600 and a Nikkor 200-500mm zoom, and I've been thinking about upgrading my camera body for a few months now. My setup is generally solid, but I have a few issues that I hope an upgraded camera body could help solve: AF struggling with birds in flight (even slow-flying raptors), low fps, and noise levels in certain conditions like a clear sky background. I'm also hoping to get higher resolution photos, since a decent amount of the time, I'm not quite satisfied with my resolution and sharpness. I've been torn between going with the D850 or upgrading to mirrorless. The thought of getting eye-tracking AF is very enticing. However, I'm on a budget and can only afford something in the $1500-$2500 range (mostly used gear). These are the options I'm considering:

Nikon D850: I've heard great things about its IQ and AF, even though it doesn't have eye-tracking. Since it's a full frame sensor instead of a crop like the D5600, any target photographed with a D850 @500mm will have "only" 26% greater resolution compared to a photo of the same target photographed with the D5600 @500mm at the same distance. I could get a 1.4X TCE and bump that up to an impressive +77%, but I don't know how much the AF will suffer and if it'll remain better than my D5600.

Nikon Z7 ii: Seems to be a mirrorless version of the D850 (same resolution and very similar price used), but I've heard mixed things about how its AF compares to the D850 and other mirrorless cameras for bird photography. I'd need to get a ZTF converter as well. Will any of the Z7's features/AF be compromised with an F lens?

Canon EOS R7: It's cheaper than the D850 and Z7 ii, so that's a plus. It also has a DX sensor (1.6x) so I'd be able to get a +44% resolution boost with my 200-500mm (I'd have to buy the Novoflex Nikon F lens to Canon RF mount converter). However, I've seen that its AF is very inconsistent and loves to wander in non-ideal lighting conditions, and I'm not sure it's worth putting up with that. Could strapping a Nikon F lens to it make those issues worse?

Which of these would be better for bird photography and satisfy my AF/resolution/noise issues? Should I go with the excellent D850 since I'm used to DSLR and have DSLR gear, or should I make the jump to a (relatively inexpensive) mirrorless camera? Any advice will be much appreciated.

Spencer,
I have a D850, a D500, a D5300 and a Nikon 200-500 lens. Is there any particularly important test you'd like me to run, please reply with specifics and I'll try to help your decision. P.S. I think I have a TC1.4 around somewhere, but I've never used it.