Advice for upgrading: D850 or mirrorless?

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Spencer14

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I currently have a Nikon D5600 and a Nikkor 200-500mm zoom, and I've been thinking about upgrading my camera body for a few months now. My setup is generally solid, but I have a few issues that I hope an upgraded camera body could help solve: AF struggling with birds in flight (even slow-flying raptors), low fps, and noise levels in certain conditions like a clear sky background. I'm also hoping to get higher resolution photos, since a decent amount of the time, I'm not quite satisfied with my resolution and sharpness. I've been torn between going with the D850 or upgrading to mirrorless. The thought of getting eye-tracking AF is very enticing. However, I'm on a budget and can only afford something in the $1500-$2500 range (mostly used gear). These are the options I'm considering:

Nikon D850: I've heard great things about its IQ and AF, even though it doesn't have eye-tracking. Since it's a full frame sensor instead of a crop like the D5600, any target photographed with a D850 @500mm will have "only" 26% greater resolution compared to a photo of the same target photographed with the D5600 @500mm at the same distance. I could get a 1.4X TCE and bump that up to an impressive +77%, but I don't know how much the AF will suffer and if it'll remain better than my D5600.

Nikon Z7 ii: Seems to be a mirrorless version of the D850 (same resolution and very similar price used), but I've heard mixed things about how its AF compares to the D850 and other mirrorless cameras for bird photography. I'd need to get a ZTF converter as well. Will any of the Z7's features/AF be compromised with an F lens?

Canon EOS R7: It's cheaper than the D850 and Z7 ii, so that's a plus. It also has a DX sensor (1.6x) so I'd be able to get a +44% resolution boost with my 200-500mm (I'd have to buy the Novoflex Nikon F lens to Canon RF mount converter). However, I've seen that its AF is very inconsistent and loves to wander in non-ideal lighting conditions, and I'm not sure it's worth putting up with that. Could strapping a Nikon F lens to it make those issues worse?

Which of these would be better for bird photography and satisfy my AF/resolution/noise issues? Should I go with the excellent D850 since I'm used to DSLR and have DSLR gear, or should I make the jump to a (relatively inexpensive) mirrorless camera? Any advice will be much appreciated.
 
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Nothing to add myself, but there are some previous discussions that cover the D850 and others, with lots of comments around BIF and focus acquisition.

How urgent is the upgrade, and do you think you'd be satisfied for long? I personally viewed my latest camera change as a 10yr (minimum) investment so I let myself save a bit longer to get exactly what I wanted.
 
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Spencer14 said:
I currently have a Nikon D5600 and a Nikkor 200-500mm zoom, and I've been thinking about upgrading my camera body for a few months now. My setup is generally solid, but I have a few issues that I hope an upgraded camera body could help solve: AF struggling with birds in flight (even slow-flying raptors), low fps, and noise levels in certain conditions like a clear sky background. I'm also hoping to get higher resolution photos, since a decent amount of the time, I'm not quite satisfied with my resolution and sharpness. I've been torn between going with the D850 or upgrading to mirrorless. The thought of getting eye-tracking AF is very enticing. However, I'm on a budget and can only afford something in the $1500-$2500 range (mostly used gear). These are the options I'm considering:

Nikon D850: I've heard great things about its IQ and AF, even though it doesn't have eye-tracking. Since it's a full frame sensor instead of a crop like the D5600, any target photographed with a D850 @500mm will have "only" 26% greater resolution compared to a photo of the same target photographed with the D5600 @500mm at the same distance. I could get a 1.4X TCE and bump that up to an impressive +77%, but I don't know how much the AF will suffer and if it'll remain better than my D5600.

Nikon Z7 ii: Seems to be a mirrorless version of the D850 (same resolution and very similar price used), but I've heard mixed things about how its AF compares to the D850 and other mirrorless cameras for bird photography. I'd need to get a ZTF converter as well. Will any of the Z7's features/AF be compromised with an F lens?

Canon EOS R7: It's cheaper than the D850 and Z7 ii, so that's a plus. It also has a DX sensor (1.6x) so I'd be able to get a +44% resolution boost with my 200-500mm (I'd have to buy the Novoflex Nikon F lens to Canon RF mount converter). However, I've seen that its AF is very inconsistent and loves to wander in non-ideal lighting conditions, and I'm not sure it's worth putting up with that. Could strapping a Nikon F lens to it make those issues worse?

Which of these would be better for bird photography and satisfy my AF/resolution/noise issues? Should I go with the excellent D850 since I'm used to DSLR and have DSLR gear, or should I make the jump to a (relatively inexpensive) mirrorless camera? Any advice will be much appreciated.
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Sorry, the Z7 ii is the mirrorless version of D700 or D610, it's a downgrade of what you have. And no, you won't get the same performance as a native Z mount lens. Your lens is fine, it's the body: D5600 is the entry-level camera with paltry hardware inside; the same 200-500mm lens on D5 or D6 will get great photos.

If I were you, I would look at the Nikon Z8 seriously. Buy once, cry once. It's not the body, it's the lens ecosystem.


Oliver
 
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Given your budget and current gear, I’d also recommend picking up a D500. I really like mirrorless cameras and it is the direction photography is heading, but a used D500 seems to make a lot of sense here. If you want to go mirrorless, I’d wait until the Z6iii is released as it should be within your budget and will include the better AF and tracking capabilities. The D500 actually has quite a few focus points spread well across the frame which can be quite useful when needing to use af points towards the edge of the frame. It also has 10fps with essentially an unlimited buffer.

The Z7ii isn’t the fastest camera. It works and you can make it work, but it doesn’t have eye AF for most animals. I found the AF to be better than the D750 I had used for most things, but no where near the D500 or Z8/Z9. The EVF goes into a slideshow when using faster FPS and can be difficult to track motion. I haven’t used the D850 so can’t comment but I’ve heard a lot of great things of it. I wouldn’t recommend the Canon with using an adapter for your Nikon lens. It is too risky you could end up with an issue sometime in the future.
 
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Spencer14 said:
I currently have a Nikon D5600 and a Nikkor 200-500mm zoom, and I've been thinking about upgrading my camera body for a few months now. My setup is generally solid, but I have a few issues that I hope an upgraded camera body could help solve: AF struggling with birds in flight (even slow-flying raptors), low fps, and noise levels in certain conditions like a clear sky background. I'm also hoping to get higher resolution photos, since a decent amount of the time, I'm not quite satisfied with my resolution and sharpness. I've been torn between going with the D850 or upgrading to mirrorless. The thought of getting eye-tracking AF is very enticing. However, I'm on a budget and can only afford something in the $1500-$2500 range (mostly used gear). These are the options I'm considering:

Nikon D850: I've heard great things about its IQ and AF, even though it doesn't have eye-tracking. Since it's a full frame sensor instead of a crop like the D5600, any target photographed with a D850 @500mm will have "only" 26% greater resolution compared to a photo of the same target photographed with the D5600 @500mm at the same distance. I could get a 1.4X TCE and bump that up to an impressive +77%, but I don't know how much the AF will suffer and if it'll remain better than my D5600.

Nikon Z7 ii: Seems to be a mirrorless version of the D850 (same resolution and very similar price used), but I've heard mixed things about how its AF compares to the D850 and other mirrorless cameras for bird photography. I'd need to get a ZTF converter as well. Will any of the Z7's features/AF be compromised with an F lens?

Canon EOS R7: It's cheaper than the D850 and Z7 ii, so that's a plus. It also has a DX sensor (1.6x) so I'd be able to get a +44% resolution boost with my 200-500mm (I'd have to buy the Novoflex Nikon F lens to Canon RF mount converter). However, I've seen that its AF is very inconsistent and loves to wander in non-ideal lighting conditions, and I'm not sure it's worth putting up with that. Could strapping a Nikon F lens to it make those issues worse?

Which of these would be better for bird photography and satisfy my AF/resolution/noise issues? Should I go with the excellent D850 since I'm used to DSLR and have DSLR gear, or should I make the jump to a (relatively inexpensive) mirrorless camera? Any advice will be much appreciated.
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I’m not familiar with the Canon, but of the two Nikons, the D850 would be much better for bird/action photography. Also, because of the D850’s 45MP, it offers close to the same reach as the D5600. The Z7’s sensor is essentially the same as the D850’s, but its AF system is not on the same level for moving subjects.

However, Cameron T’s suggestion of the Nikon D500 makes a lot sense for BIF. And for budget purposes, a D7500 is also worth consideration.

The Z8 or Z9 are the best Nikon MLs for BIF.
 
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Be careful with the 1.4 tc on the 200-500. You loose 1 stop of light and the AF slows. IMO the image quality when using it is fair.
I only do it when I’m desperate. Others have found it acceptable. The milage tends to vary between users.
 
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I changed from the D5500 (very similar to your 5600) to the D500 and there is a profound difference for nature photography and BIF. Apart from the obvious improvement in AF performance and buffer size, the extra control dial means you can use Manual with Auto ISO fully with EC. You can also customise the buttons to select three different AF modes at the touch of a button. Ergonomically it’s great. It does have slightly less resolution than D5500 / 5600.
Even if you are intending to go mirrorless at some stage you’d not lose a lot on one as an interim step. The 500PF second hand would also be a brilliant move as it is sharper and much nicer to carry bout than the 200-500! It would perform even better if you went mirrorless.
If you could find the funds jumping to Z8 500PF is a terrific combo, though.
Choices!
 
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Spencer14 said:
I currently have a Nikon D5600 and a Nikkor 200-500mm zoom, and I've been thinking about upgrading my camera body for a few months now. My setup is generally solid, but I have a few issues that I hope an upgraded camera body could help solve: AF struggling with birds in flight (even slow-flying raptors), low fps, and noise levels in certain conditions like a clear sky background. I'm also hoping to get higher resolution photos, since a decent amount of the time, I'm not quite satisfied with my resolution and sharpness. I've been torn between going with the D850 or upgrading to mirrorless. The thought of getting eye-tracking AF is very enticing. However, I'm on a budget and can only afford something in the $1500-$2500 range (mostly used gear). These are the options I'm considering:

Nikon D850: I've heard great things about its IQ and AF, even though it doesn't have eye-tracking. Since it's a full frame sensor instead of a crop like the D5600, any target photographed with a D850 @500mm will have "only" 26% greater resolution compared to a photo of the same target photographed with the D5600 @500mm at the same distance. I could get a 1.4X TCE and bump that up to an impressive +77%, but I don't know how much the AF will suffer and if it'll remain better than my D5600.

Nikon Z7 ii: Seems to be a mirrorless version of the D850 (same resolution and very similar price used), but I've heard mixed things about how its AF compares to the D850 and other mirrorless cameras for bird photography. I'd need to get a ZTF converter as well. Will any of the Z7's features/AF be compromised with an F lens?

Canon EOS R7: It's cheaper than the D850 and Z7 ii, so that's a plus. It also has a DX sensor (1.6x) so I'd be able to get a +44% resolution boost with my 200-500mm (I'd have to buy the Novoflex Nikon F lens to Canon RF mount converter). However, I've seen that its AF is very inconsistent and loves to wander in non-ideal lighting conditions, and I'm not sure it's worth putting up with that. Could strapping a Nikon F lens to it make those issues worse?

Which of these would be better for bird photography and satisfy my AF/resolution/noise issues? Should I go with the excellent D850 since I'm used to DSLR and have DSLR gear, or should I make the jump to a (relatively inexpensive) mirrorless camera? Any advice will be much appreciated.
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I’ve been using the D500 for 3 years and it is an awesome camera. I shoot it in combination with the 500 PF. If you looking for a reasonably priced camera for BIF with a lot of reach with your 500mm , than the D500 is the way to go until your ready for a z8 or Z9.
 
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The D500 was the last D series camera I sold, I still miss not having it. If you are staying D series, snap up a D500, massive improvement of the 5600.
 
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Spencer14 said:
I currently have a Nikon D5600 and a Nikkor 200-500mm zoom, and I've been thinking about upgrading my camera body for a few months now. My setup is generally solid, but I have a few issues that I hope an upgraded camera body could help solve: AF struggling with birds in flight (even slow-flying raptors), low fps, and noise levels in certain conditions like a clear sky background. I'm also hoping to get higher resolution photos, since a decent amount of the time, I'm not quite satisfied with my resolution and sharpness. I've been torn between going with the D850 or upgrading to mirrorless. The thought of getting eye-tracking AF is very enticing. However, I'm on a budget and can only afford something in the $1500-$2500 range (mostly used gear). These are the options I'm considering:

Nikon D850: I've heard great things about its IQ and AF, even though it doesn't have eye-tracking. Since it's a full frame sensor instead of a crop like the D5600, any target photographed with a D850 @500mm will have "only" 26% greater resolution compared to a photo of the same target photographed with the D5600 @500mm at the same distance. I could get a 1.4X TCE and bump that up to an impressive +77%, but I don't know how much the AF will suffer and if it'll remain better than my D5600.

Nikon Z7 ii: Seems to be a mirrorless version of the D850 (same resolution and very similar price used), but I've heard mixed things about how its AF compares to the D850 and other mirrorless cameras for bird photography. I'd need to get a ZTF converter as well. Will any of the Z7's features/AF be compromised with an F lens?

Canon EOS R7: It's cheaper than the D850 and Z7 ii, so that's a plus. It also has a DX sensor (1.6x) so I'd be able to get a +44% resolution boost with my 200-500mm (I'd have to buy the Novoflex Nikon F lens to Canon RF mount converter). However, I've seen that its AF is very inconsistent and loves to wander in non-ideal lighting conditions, and I'm not sure it's worth putting up with that. Could strapping a Nikon F lens to it make those issues worse?

Which of these would be better for bird photography and satisfy my AF/resolution/noise issues? Should I go with the excellent D850 since I'm used to DSLR and have DSLR gear, or should I make the jump to a (relatively inexpensive) mirrorless camera? Any advice will be much appreciated.
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Since others already have commented on camera bodies, I’ll just say a few things about your lenses. The 200-500 is a nice, versatile lens, but it won’t win any awards for BIF in lower light situations. Add the 1.4 TC and it’s virtually useless for BIF (AF slows to the point of absurdity). Also keep in mind that your aperture slows to f8 with the TC, which may or may not be a bad thing depending on what you want. Using the 200-500 without the TC in good light works well for BIF however, so just pick your lighting conditions whenever possible. Getting a better lens than the 200-500 likely would exceed your budget, although you might be able to pick up a 500PF for about $2,000, but you’d lose the flexibility of the zoom.

As for camera bodies, both the D500 and D850 are excellent DSLRs for wildlife, and compelling arguments can be made for either. However, given how the industry has shifted to mirrorless, and where you are at the moment, if I were in your situation I’d just save my money and eventually purchase a Z8 or Z9, which would position you for the future and open up a whole new stable of very capable lenses. My guess is that within a year or two, you’ll be able to find good, used copies of both mirrorless cameras at a significant discount to their current list price. In the meanwhile, just enjoy the wildlife experience.
 
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Seems like the overwhelming consensus is either a D500, or wait longer for a Z8/9. My only concern about the D500 is its lower resolution compared to the D5600, when I'm already a little concerned about IQ, but perhaps the better processor and AF will balance it out and the IQ would end up comparable or improved.

@jcollins it's not incredibly urgent. Even if I go with a sub-$900 used D500, I wouldn't upgrade for a few more months. I'd still use my D5600 after an upgrade for macro with my 105mm because of the built-in flash. You raise a good point about how long I'd be satisfied for. I'd probably want to transition to mirrorless eventually when I have enough money to do so. Maybe I should hold off on an upgrade until then, or maybe an upgrade to the D500 within the next 6 months is fine since it's a far smaller monetary investment than a Z8/9 and the AF capabilities still hold up well to this day.

@Steve W I'm not really concerned about having to shoot in f/8 since that's what I normally shoot at/around anyways. What I am concerned about are reductions to AF and IQ, especially since the D500 has a lower resolution than my D5600, so any additional loss in IQ would be noticeable. However, the 1.4X TCE would be the cheapest way to surpass the resolution of the D5600 with a D500 and 200-500mm. Should I even be concerned about the D500 being 20.9 mpx vs 24.1 mp?
 
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Spencer14 said:
I'm not really concerned about having to shoot in f/8 since that's what I normally shoot at/around anyways.
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Just be aware that there's a big difference between stopping a wider aperture lens down to f/8 and shooting vs a lens or lens plus TC combo that's f/8 wide open. The former doesn't impact AF performance on a DSLR as the camera focuses wide open and only stops down to your selected aperture when the shutter is released. The latter can have big impacts on AF performance and limits the number of active AF sensor points on a DSLR though it works much better on mirrorless cameras.

Personally I haven't had good luck with a 1.4x TC on a f/5.6 wide open lens like the 500mm PF. I tried it with the D500, D850 and D5 and was disappointed with AF performance in any sort of lower light or lower contrast situations especially for moving subjects. Once I achieved focus the image quality was good but focus was hit or miss unless the light was bright (when I rarely shoot) or the subjects were high contrast. With mirrorless cameras including the Z6, Z8 and Z9 this isn't a problem and I use TCs with my 500mm PF and mirrorless cameras quite a bit. Others have had better luck with their DSLRs but for me a TC on the 500mm on a DSLR wasn't a great combo.
 
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Abinoone said:
Since others already have commented on camera bodies, I’ll just say a few things about your lenses. The 200-500 is a nice, versatile lens, but it won’t win any awards for BIF in lower light situations. Add the 1.4 TC and it’s virtually useless for BIF (AF slows to the point of absurdity). Also keep in mind that your aperture slows to f8 with the TC, which may or may not be a bad thing depending on what you want. Using the 200-500 without the TC in good light works well for BIF however, so just pick your lighting conditions whenever possible.
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I would agree with the above, with one caveat: 200-500mm with TC-14E III works better on mirrorless cameras. They don't struggle nearly as much with focusing in low light conditions, even at F/8 compared to DSLR's. Focus accuracy is also better and loss of IQ through the TC is negligible. I had the 200-500mm with TC-14E III on a Z6II and I got good images, including BIF.

Z62_5481-DeNoiseAI-raw.jpg
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Rassie said:
I would agree with the above, with one caveat: 200-500mm with TC-14E III works better on mirrorless cameras. They don't struggle nearly as much with focusing in low light conditions, even at F/8 compared to DSLR's. Focus accuracy is also better and loss of IQ through the TC is negligible. I had the 200-500mm with TC-14E III on a Z6II and I got good images, including BIF.

View attachment 76702
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I agree. I’ve even photographed small groups of pintail ducks in flight with the 200-500 and TC-20Eiii on a Z9. The major drawback, however, is IQ degradation at 2x.
 
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I didn't know you could use both a ZTF converter and a TCE-1.4X on a Nikon mirrorless body. However, when I go mirrorless, I'll probably buy a 180-600mm Z lens. It's Z glass so it'll probably yield better results on its intended body type, and it's far cheaper than a similarly sized prime. 600mm on a 45.7mpx FX sensor Z8/9 would yield 1.52x the resolution of the same target photographed at the same distance with my 24.1 mpx DX sensor D5600 + 200-500mm combo. I'm thinking the Nikon Z8 and 180-600mm would be the ideal setup for me, but it currently costs around $5,500-$6,000 so it'll be a while before I make the switch, and maybe by then a new option will emerge.

If the difference between 20.9 mpx and 24.1 mpx has minimal to no impact on IQ between the two cameras, then I'll take everyone's advice and switch to the D500 in a few months. 10 fps for under $1000 is hard to pass up on, and I wouldn't have to bother with TCEs or adapters. However, I may still get a TCE-1.4x just for some extra manual focus-only reach for eclipse photos with my D5600.
 
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Spencer14 said:
Which of these would be better for bird photography and satisfy my AF/resolution/noise issues? Should I go with the excellent D850 since I'm used to DSLR and have DSLR gear, or should I make the jump to a (relatively inexpensive) mirrorless camera? Any advice will be much appreciated.
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Get a D500 now and in a few months get rid of your D5600 and 200-500 f5.6 and buy a used 500mm PF. This should help your AF/ issues and your sharpness issue but most likely not your resolution or noise (I'm guessing you are too far from your subjects and are cropping too much? maybe use Adobe AI Denoise or Dxo PureRAW for that?).

Or get rid of your current gear and get a R7 and 200-800mm RF or used 100-500L. This should also help your AF issues and maybe your sharpness and resolution issues.

Don't bother with the D850, with the Z7 II, adapting the 200-500mm to R7 or TC1.4x on 200-500mm f5.6. All are bound to leave you disappointed.
 
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StefanSC said:
Get a D500 now and in a few months get rid of your D5600 and 200-500 f5.6 and buy a used 500mm PF. This should help your AF/ issues and your sharpness issue but most likely not your resolution or noise (I'm guessing you are too far from your subjects and are cropping too much? maybe use Adobe AI Denoise or Dxo PureRAW for that?).

Or get rid of your current gear and get a R7 and 200-800mm RF or used 100-500L. This should also help your AF issues and maybe your sharpness and resolution issues.

Don't bother with the D850, with the Z7 II, adapting the 200-500mm to R7 or TC1.4x on 200-500mm f5.6. All are bound to leave you disappointed.
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I'm often struggling to get close enough to my subjects. Sometimes it's fine, other times it's not. I try to be careful with cropping and I use Lightroom for sharpening/denoise AI, but there are some situations where I struggle with IQ that those can't totally fix. BIF is one, and birds perched in front of a clear blue background is another. Even with slow and near-flying raptors and ISOs under 1000-1600, I feel like I'm getting a little too much noise, and it doesn't seem like I'm getting proper focus/sharpness on the head/eye. I'm experiencing similar concerns with perched raptors on clear days. A few hours ago I got some shots of a Cooper's/Sharpie, and even the sharpest shot at 1/500s f/8.0 ISO 200 looked a little off. I'm not sure how much of it is due to my technique or the D5600 sensor's noise capabilities or me just having unreasonable sharpness/IQ standards for a bird at this distance (about 50-70 ft).

The R7 and 200-800mm RF is tempting, and would address many of my AF tracking/IQ/subject distance issues. However, the R7's AF is very inconsistent and the videos I've seen suggest the 200-800 may make it worse.
 
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I still shoot with my D500 and D850 even though I have a Z9. Either a used D500 or used D850 would be an improvement for you. That being said, I think the smart move would be to save for a Z8 or a Z9 and maybe a used Nikon 500mm f5.6 pf lens or a used Nikon 500mm f4 E lens. And a new long Z mount tele at some point.

My long lenses are 500mm f5.6 pf, 300mm f4 pf and the 100-400mm S Z mount lens.
 
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