AI AF...maybe not for me

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JP Onstwedder

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Them Hogan's recent comment on how long it takes to master the current cameras (six months, for a pro) rang a bell — it explains why my Z8 is the first camera I’ve owned that I don’t enjoy using. D200, D750, Z7, Z7 II….all enjoyable to use, despite clear shortcomings when compared, objectively, to a Z8. But the Z8 requires too much learning, or more accurately, the autofocus system requires too much learning. AI based AF….the less said about it, the better. Subject recognition drives me crazy. It works like magic when there is unambiguously one subject in the frame, almost no matter how small or how well hidden. But with two or more subjects it starts to behave in a way that for me remains unpredictable — although I have no doubt that with six months’ worth of daily use and diligent investigation of what worked and what didn’t, I would understand it better. But for now, I will stick with the old fashioned AF modes. Or my Z7 II, which frankly gives me more pleasure in use.

How do others feel about these 'advanced' AF tools? Am I the lazy luddite in the group?
 
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Its fine once you learn it. You just have a lot more tools, and you have to learn to adjust to get the most out of them. If you don't want to, that's fine, but it's worth learning for sure.

It's only unpredictable because you haven't taken the time to understand it. Steve's books (and Thoms, though his are more technical) are well worth the money
 
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I've read the books, and practiced, to the point of feeling quite frustrated. It may be that a Z8 and the equivalent cameras from other brands are just 'too much camera' for me, and that I should stick to previous generation cameras and no longer upgrade.
 
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JP Onstwedder said:
I've read the books, and practiced, to the point of feeling quite frustrated. It may be that a Z8 and the equivalent cameras from other brands are just 'too much camera' for me, and that I should stick to previous generation cameras and no longer upgrade.
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There's no requirement to use Subject Detection and its automation. The Dynamic AF Area modes work just the same as a DSLR as does Single Point. The Wide-Small and Wide-Large AF Area modes are much like Group AF Area modes on a DSLR.

If you're finding the adjustment to mirrorless a bit much you might go back to AF Area modes you're accustomed to, get used to all of the other features like the EVF behaviors and in time start exploring what can be done with Subject Detection options. IOW, walk before you run as there are a lot of changes going from a DSLR to an advanced mirrorless camera and you don't have to jump in and figure all those things out at once.
 
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JP Onstwedder said:
Them Hogan's recent comment on how long it takes to master the current cameras (six months, for a pro) rang a bell — it explains why my Z8 is the first camera I’ve owned that I don’t enjoy using. D200, D750, Z7, Z7 II….all enjoyable to use, despite clear shortcomings when compared, objectively, to a Z8. But the Z8 requires too much learning, or more accurately, the autofocus system requires too much learning. AI based AF….the less said about it, the better. Subject recognition drives me crazy. It works like magic when there is unambiguously one subject in the frame, almost no matter how small or how well hidden. But with two or more subjects it starts to behave in a way that for me remains unpredictable — although I have no doubt that with six months’ worth of daily use and diligent investigation of what worked and what didn’t, I would understand it better. But for now, I will stick with the old fashioned AF modes. Or my Z7 II, which frankly gives me more pleasure in use.

How do others feel about these 'advanced' AF tools? Am I the lazy luddite in the group?
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You can turn off subject detection on Wide S/L and the Custom AF areas. Or, disable those AF areas from being selected at all, if that makes using the camera more satisfying.
 
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There have been many replies already talking about the subject recognition and its use (or not) in focusing the camera.
I found the learning curve quite steep when I moved from DSLR to mirrorless Nikons. Took me a while to become comfortable with my Z6 and later Z6II. The curve was again steep when I replaced the Z6II with the Z8. I found the new tech to be quite daunting to master initially, but I became more and more comfortable with it as time progressed. I think it's quite normal to be frustrated in the beginning, and to gradually grow into the camera and learning to love it as you start memorizing the various functions and how to use them. The reward comes when you get a great shot and you realize it would not have been possible without the latest tech.

The image below illustrates my point. I had seen this Belted Kingfisher in a tree and I was slowly walking closer for an image when it decided to bolt. I had the Z8 set for BIF, frame rate of 20FPS and a high enough shutter speed. The bird, however, still caught me by surprise when it suddenly took off. I pointed the camera towards the bird and hit the shutter. Only the very first image in the series had the bird in the frame. I could not follow it fast enough to get more images in the frame. This is not a great image, but it's unique. Without the blazing fast subject recognition of the Z8 I'm convinced I would never have been able to lock focus so fast with any older model Nikon.

My advice: Hang in there, it gets better with practice. Don't rush yourself to learn all the intricacies of the very advanced autofocus in this camera. I'm almost 10 months in with mine and I'm only now growing relatively confident in handling it. At 67 I'm a slower leaner as well than the younger folks.

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As others have said…those AF tools are there if you want them or later find need. Push the easy button and enjoy your new Z8 in “economy mode” with simplistic settings you are familiar with…. Explore other settings as confidence builds.
 
Are they really saying it is AI autofocus? Seems like ordinary pattern recognition to me, no "intelligence" needed?

On my canon I have the luxury of many buttons. One I set up for wide area, one for spot af, another for eye/body detection. Can nikon maybe use double BBF, one for subject/eye, one for spot or area?
 
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bleirer said:
Are they really saying it is AI autofocus? Seems like ordinary pattern recognition to me, no "intelligence" needed?

On my canon I have the luxury of many buttons. One I set up for wide area, one for spot af, another for eye/body detection. Can nikon maybe use double BBF, one for subject/eye, one for spot or area?
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From what I understand, the AI part has to do with subject recognition. The AI recognizes the subject in the viewfinder, locks on to that, then the autofocus focuses on the subject identified.
 
Rassie said:
From what I understand, the AI part has to do with subject recognition. The AI recognizes the subject in the viewfinder, locks on to that, then the autofocus focuses on the subject identified.
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So is Nikon claiming doing this involves artificial intelligence, or just pattern recognition?
 
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AI these days is a buzzword for tools that use Machine Learning.. algorithms train on massive data sets to do specific tasks... it is not truely general purpose artificial inteligence (what most people think of when saying AI).
 
jerrylwatson said:
What is the difference? I thought pattern recognition was AI.
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I was just wondering, as the OP said they didn't like the AI of the Z8 autofocus, how is this AI different from ordinary subject detection? I mean my R5 detects animal eyes just fine, but they don't claim it to be AI. Not every one liked Cortana, but Master Chief John 117 learned to trust her over time.
 
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If you're new to subject detection and tracking features, the first thing is to turn on all the features, like all detection modes and full auto area, and learn to trust it. Of course, it can't be trusted.

You start restricting it's operation to only those areas of the viewfinder you want in focus by moving patches, like Wide Area, or Custom Areas, over the areas of interest.

Then you will find that giving the detection algorithm too many choices gives false, negative or otherwise undesirable detections, so you limit its choices.

Then you find things that sometimes won't be detected, like perhaps elephant's eyes. Or absolutely enrapture the focusing system, like a male peacock's feathers (which look like eyes).

So then you turn off all detection.

Now the camera will focus only on the nearest thing. But you want to focus exactly on the eye, focusing past the distracting eye lashes, so you switch to single-point continuous focus. But now you need to chase the eye all around the viewfinder.

And so on and on it goes; The never-ending nightmare of AI.

Just turn everything off...At least it will be quieter than a D850.
 
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The subject recognition software uses deep-learning algorithms, trained in supercomputers using an AI methodology to discern and learn patterns in images

Z9 'Deep-learning AI'

There doesn't seem to be much said or written about this. Apart from advanced subject detection, does anyone have more insight as to what this is all about. Marketing say - 'Deep-learning AI, meanwhile, powers the most advanced, simultaneous detection of up to nine different subject types'...
bcgforums.com bcgforums.com
 
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I'm another Nikon owner who learned strengths but also challenges of the new AF techniques that leveraged, the then, new features in the D500 and D850 (borrowed from the D5). This 'New' method now challenged one to master switching between AF modes using the then brand new custom settings (thanks to AF mode+AFOn).

Effectively circa 2016, Nikon delivered the core features for what in today's MILC erawe call the Hybrid Focus method, with AF Hand Over etc.

Back then upgrading from a D750 or D7*00, this was a great leap forward from just using Back button Focus; we could now switch instantly, ie toggle, between Single Point and the Dynamic modes or Group AF etc..... very useful to keep the subject in focus and get a sharp eye etc.

I found the Custom-Area (C1, C2) modes first introduced in the D6 were a more recent feature to empower wildlife photography. These have refined how we can use the powerful Group mode, notably choices to set a tighter search area for the AF sensors. Nikon added C1 and C2 into the Z9 in FW 2.0, and they're standard in the Z8 and Zf.
 
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As we all know, Subject Recognition empowers most of the traditional Nikon AF modes in the Z9 and latterly Z8. But it can break down in some scenes - clutter usually, or multiple subjects. This is when 3D or AutoAF can seriously lose the plot, and grab the wrong thing, usually the background. However, 3D and Auto are very powerful in the Z9 AF system as they search almost the entire EVF frame.

Turning SR on in the Custom-Area (C1, C2) modes tightens the SR search area around your subject. When it works, SR is very powerful to grab sharp eye focus in the C* modes.

Perhaps another learning aid is to assign Subject Mode options as the "Access top item in MyMenu" in a Custom Button on the Display button, next to AFOn. This allows turning off SR quickly, and C1 and C2 work much like they do in the D6.
 
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It took me at least two months to start to master the Z7 :sick: compared to my then D850.

It took me about half an hour to make the transfer from the Z7 to the Z9.

Adding the Z8 was almost instant – accept there is still a need to learn new functions as they are added to the Z8 and 9.
 
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All of the new mirrorless cameras have more capabilities than most of us will ever use, or can remember. The key is to pick and choose the features you like use them and forget the others even exist.
 
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I recommend setting a custom button to toggle subject detection on and off or put it within your access menu. I find that for me I disable it about 40% of the time and a lot of times it provides better results but that’s just my opinion.
 
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For what it's worth (FWIW) here it the process I used when I went from DSLR to Mirrorless (which is also the same basic process I used when moving from film SLR to DSLR).
1) I bought one of the books about that specific brand and model of camera. Amazon has dozens for each model. And then I read the book.
2) I configured my new camera as closely to my old camera as I could figure out. I then used the new camera for a while just like I used the old camera.
3) I slowly started introducing new features and capabilities either through customizing buttons or turning on/off menu options.
4) Over time, ( a few months) I had the new camera configured to match my shooting needs.
5) in the past year, I have rearranged buttons and learned that some features, while really interesting, were not something I used as much as I thought so that button became free for something else I used.

My camera (Canon not Nikon) has C1 C2, C3 which is similar to Nikon shooting banks except when I change something on the fly, it does not get stored unless I intentionally register those new settings to the Customized spot on the dial. I have each C1, C2, C3 set differently. C1 is general purpose photography and one I use most. I have C2 set for action and C3 I have set for macro. (at least how I shoot each of these genera of photos).

Hope this helps.
Jeff
 
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