Blow out lesson needed

Bob Hullinger · Jul 21, 2022

I'm a terrible birder. This picture is nothing special but shows what I need to improve. Here's the things I like to learn.

I brought this down to EV -2.3 so the bird wasn't totally blown out and I liked the look of the water and background. The head and neck got a little darker than I like it. The edge of he right wing is less blown out than before I adjusted but still glows. I was shooting at 1/500s at F/9 to keep the ISO as close to 64 as I could get it.

Here's what I need help with.

Is there a way to have everything in this picture using just the camera settings? In a perfect world I would want the right wing tip feather details to stay just about the way it is while at the same time bringing down the light on the flat area to get the detail back and get rid of the blown out edge. I want the head and neck to be just a little brighter.

Can all that happen in camera? If so how would I set it to get the cleanest results.

I know I can do about anything post process but I only know the basics. I mainly use the Nikon software tools and LR and PS. I am very inexperienced with anything but Studio. What tools I should learn to use in the software to get where I want to get with images like that would be great. I'm assuming that if I knew what I was doing that would be pretty simple to adjust. Am I wrong?

Help me.

Thanks.

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bleirer · Jul 21, 2022

I wasn't sure if you had a question? For whatever reason part of the wing still lacks detail. Either blown in raw file or pushed too hard in post. Its difficult because it pushes your dynamic range to have detail in the white whites when the sun is hitting them so strongly and to also have detail in the dark water. I think some selective masking maybe, if the whites are recoverable,

Stephen Berger · Jul 22, 2022

Birds that are all white or have big white patches are tough in less than perfect lighting conditions (and can be tough even then), I have my camera set to full manual and as I'm usually shooting wide open I adjust shutter and ISO to make sure the white bird isn't blown out and then I bring up the rest in LR. (or sometimes I don't and I let the white bird exist against darker background). I don't think most camera (or any?) are going to make that happen with in camera jpeg's. For the post process it's really the most basic tools, highlights, shadows, exposure, whites and blacks. And one you Gond that balance you can effect the saturation to tatste.

Here are a couple of examples.

Stephen Berger on Instagram: "Shake it off… . . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #morning #egret #birdphotography #fog #greategret #nuts_about_birds #animalphotography #bb_of_ig #portrait #yourshotphotographer #wildgeog

110 likes, 11 comments - stephen_berger on June 18, 2022: "Shake it off… . . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #morning #egret #birdphotography #fog #greategret #nu..."

www.instagram.com

Stephen Berger on Instagram: "Vogueing of sorts… . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #ocean #water #birdphotography #sunrise #egret #sunriselover #animalphotography #vogue #greategret #yourshotphotographer #wildgeography

113 likes, 11 comments - stephen_berger on June 5, 2022: "Vogueing of sorts… . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #ocean #water #birdphotography #sunrise #egret #su..."

www.instagram.com

Stephen Berger on Instagram: "Super groovy egret… . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #ocean #water #birdphotography #sunrise #egret #sunriselover #animalphotography #reflection #greategret #yourshotphotographer #wildgeo

114 likes, 15 comments - stephen_berger on May 18, 2022: "Super groovy egret… . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #ocean #water #birdphotography #sunrise #egret #s..."

www.instagram.com

Stephen Berger on Instagram: ". . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #ocean #ballet #birdphotography #sunset #egret #sunrise #animalphotography #reflection #snowyegret #yourshotphotographer #wildgeography #birdsofinstagra

78 likes, 3 comments - stephen_berger on February 25, 2022: ". . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #ocean #ballet #birdphotography #sunset #egret #sunrise #animalphotog..."

www.instagram.com

Bob Hullinger · Jul 22, 2022

bleirer said:
I wasn't sure if you had a question? For whatever reason part of the wing still lacks detail. Either blown in raw file or pushed too hard in post. Its difficult because it pushes your dynamic range to have detail in the white whites when the sun is hitting them so strongly and to also have detail in the dark water. I think some selective masking maybe, if the whites are recoverable,

Thanks for responding. Just curious if the text got through. I've attached the text that was supposed to go with the image.

"I'm a terrible birder. This picture is nothing special but shows what I need to improve. Here's the things I like to learn.

I brought this down to EV -2.3 so the bird wasn't totally blown out and I liked the look of the water and background. The head and neck got a little darker than I like it. The edge of he right wing is less blown out than before I adjusted but still glows. I was shooting at 1/500s at F/9 to keep the ISO as close to 64 as I could get it.

Here's what I need help with.

Is there a way to have everything in this picture using just the camera settings? In a perfect world I would want the right wing tip feather details to stay just about the way it is while at the same time bringing down the light on the flat area to get the detail back and get rid of the blown out edge. I want the head and neck to be just a little brighter.

Can all that happen in camera? If so how would I set it to get the cleanest results.

I know I can do about anything post process but I only know the basics. I mainly use the Nikon software tools and LR and PS. I am very inexperienced with anything but Studio. What tools I should learn to use in the software to get where I want to get with images like that would be great. I'm assuming that if I knew what I was doing that would be pretty simple to adjust. Am I wrong?

Bob Hullinger · Jul 22, 2022

Stephen Berger said:
Birds that are all white or have big white patches are tough in less than perfect lighting conditions (and can be tough even then), I have my camera set to full manual and as I'm usually shooting wide open I adjust shutter and ISO to make sure the white bird isn't blown out and then I bring up the rest in LR. (or sometimes I don't and I let the white bird exist against darker background). I don't think most camera (or any?) are going to make that happen with in camera jpeg's. For the post process it's really the most basic tools, highlights, shadows, exposure, whites and blacks. And one you Gond that balance you can effect the saturation to tatste.

Here are a couple of examples.

Stephen Berger on Instagram: "Shake it off… . . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #morning #egret #birdphotography #fog #greategret #nuts_about_birds #animalphotography #bb_of_ig #portrait #yourshotphotographer #wildgeog

110 likes, 11 comments - stephen_berger on June 18, 2022: "Shake it off… . . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #morning #egret #birdphotography #fog #greategret #nu..."

www.instagram.com

Stephen Berger on Instagram: "Vogueing of sorts… . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #ocean #water #birdphotography #sunrise #egret #sunriselover #animalphotography #vogue #greategret #yourshotphotographer #wildgeography

113 likes, 11 comments - stephen_berger on June 5, 2022: "Vogueing of sorts… . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #ocean #water #birdphotography #sunrise #egret #su..."

www.instagram.com

Stephen Berger on Instagram: "Super groovy egret… . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #ocean #water #birdphotography #sunrise #egret #sunriselover #animalphotography #reflection #greategret #yourshotphotographer #wildgeo

114 likes, 15 comments - stephen_berger on May 18, 2022: "Super groovy egret… . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #ocean #water #birdphotography #sunrise #egret #s..."

www.instagram.com

Stephen Berger on Instagram: ". . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #ocean #ballet #birdphotography #sunset #egret #sunrise #animalphotography #reflection #snowyegret #yourshotphotographer #wildgeography #birdsofinstagra

78 likes, 3 comments - stephen_berger on February 25, 2022: ". . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #ocean #ballet #birdphotography #sunset #egret #sunrise #animalphotog..."

www.instagram.com

Thanks. I was trying something different today. Most times I'd have more shutter speed let the ISO run higher. Kind of more bird portraits than action birds I guess. He was posing for me mostly but decided to attack a fish so he ended up in that position.

As far as post processing goes would the best RAW file for post processing result from overexposing or under exposing? I haven't post processed enough to remember how that works.

DRwyoming · Jul 22, 2022

Bobh2000 said:
Help me

Yes, you can shoot the image in the field so that the bright white's on the bird don't blow out.

Exactly how you do that depends on what mode you're shooting in and how you're metering the scene and the subject and scene itself. For instance if you spot meter on the bird you'd want that area to be about a stop and a half to two stops brighter than mid tone. So in full manual exposure with manual ISO that means spot metering the bird and having the meter read somewhere around 1.5 to 2 stops above the center (zero) reading. If you're shooting in an automated exposure mode like Shutter Priority, Aperture Priority or Manual with Auto ISO and you spot metered on the bird then you'd want to have roughly 1.5 to 2 stops of positive exposure compensation dialed in. But that's if you choose to spot meter on just the whites of the bird.

If you use Matrix Metering then with the bird relatively small in the frame and so much mid-tone and dark water surrounding it you'd want to compensate the other way as Matrix Metering sees the whole scene and would be heavily influenced by the large dark area of the water. So in that case in full manual mode with manual ISO you'd want the camera's meter to read roughly one to one and a half stops or so below zero to keep the dark water dark. Or if you shoot in any of the automated exposure modes including manual with auto ISO you'd want roughly 1 to 1.5 stops of negative exposure compensation dialed in. Looking at the image I'd use less negative compensation when shooting in Matrix Metering than the positive compensation I'd use for spot metering on just the white bird the reason being that some of that water is very dark but a lot of it has a sheen to it. IOW , a white bird should meter around 2 stops brighter than mid-tone (if spot metering just the bird) but the overall scene with the water won't be a full 2 stops below mid-tone as a lot of that water is near mid-tone and not all of it is dark (using matrix metering that looks at the entire frame).

There are other approaches depending on the camera like shooting in Highlight Weighted Matrix Metering which will put extra emphasis on making sure the highlights don't blow out but not all cameras support that metering mode.

Bottom line, there are ways to make sure white's don't blow out using the exposure controls right on the camera but how you go about that depends on the mode you shoot in, the metering mode you use and the specific scene as in what tones occupy the frame and whether you have large areas of dark or bright tones that might influence the chosen metering mode.

One simple way with a DSLR is to take a quick test shot and check the Blinkies and Histogram while reviewing the image on the rear panel LCD if the Blinkies (clipped highlights warning) blinks then expose for less light which either means adjusting to let less light in or to reduce sensitivity (i.e. use faster shutter speed, higher f/ stop or decrease ISO) when shooting in full manual with manual ISO. Or in any of the automated exposure modes dial in negative exposure compensation until a test shot doesn't show the blinkies or you no longer see a spike on the right hand edge of the histogram. Mirrorless cameras make this easier by showing the exposure right in the viewfinder before taking the shot and optionally showing the histogram in the electronic viewfinder so you can dial in changes in real time before taking any shots.

And those approaches might work for this particular shot but if you shot with a longer lens or got closer so the Egret took up a lot more of the frame or the area around the bird was green grass (which is very near mid-tone) then the specific amount you'd compensate or shift your metering expectations would change. But again a test shot and checking for blown out highlights (via blinkies or the histogram) is still a good way to check your exposure.

Ralph · Jul 22, 2022

Definitely take a few test Shots to adjust either with exposure compensation or shoor manual and adjust aperture and/or shutterspeed accordingly. What I usually do is shoot using matrix metering with manual mode and auto ISO. I then adjust with EC. When white birds are involved or dark birds with some white on them like an Osprey or Eagle, I adjust EC to under expose by anywhere from -.3 to -1.0 and then pull out the shadows in post processing. That works well for me.
But one mistake I’ll usually make is to forget to take a few test shots and adjust accordingly. So, in situations like this fire a few and don’t forget to check using blinkies. There are other approaches as well such as spot metering as Dave mentions above , so do whatever works best for you.

Butlerkid · Jul 22, 2022

You are shooting a Z7. Set up the viewfinder to show the histogram. Then use it. There is no reason to try to keep the ISO at 64. There should be no worries up to about ISO 800....and even after that noise reduction s/w can handle higher ISOs. Instead of f9......stay around f6.3-7.1.

Lastly, for birding you really need a much longer focal length to get the subject larger in the frame.

Bob Hullinger · Jul 22, 2022

Butlerkid said:
You are shooting a Z7. Set up the viewfinder to show the histogram. Then use it. There is no reason to try to keep the ISO at 64. There should be no worries up to about ISO 800....and even after that noise reduction s/w can handle higher ISOs. Instead of f9......stay around f6.3-7.1.

Lastly, for birding you really need a much longer focal length to get the subject larger in the frame.

Thanks. The low ISO was coincidentental to what had been shooting. I wasn't really birding. I was at a nature preserve near a marina shooting stuff with a new lens I hadn't used enough yet. It was a 3 hour fun run out in the country. The bird was there when I drove by. I was taking general photographs and the bird was a target of opportunity.

I actually have very little interest in focusing my shooting solely on long range birds in flight right now. I'm about a year or two away from considering serious birding. Right building my skill set is what I am trying to achieve.

And besides, too many others of you do that way better than I do and it would be impossible for me to create anything original with all the great work you and the others here already create. Not that I won't shoot BIF when I am in bird land but I wasn't out specifically looking for birds or anything else that moved

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

fast to shoot yesterday

The lesson learned I am going for by posting this is blow outs and first, using my camera to not create them and second, fixing them if I can't avoid them. And I really do appreciate your help. I want to be capable of shooting any subject properly someday.

Had I arrived at that area with a longer len and tripod the bird would have been gone before exposure became relevant. The bird was posing when I shot him and decided to try to catch a fish and that's why the movement is there. He missed the fish or this would have been a fish on a birds beak picture. For reference I had crept along the shoreline hiding behind trees to get closer and ran out of trees

I am posting a few more shots to better illustrate the situation. Me creeping up on him, him flying away from me and the type of shot I was taking before spotting the birds in the canal. Forgive the general imperfections. They are all straight out of the camera and sent using BCF export formatting. I shot the standing bird from my car window before he took off.

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

Bob Hullinger · Jul 22, 2022

DRwyoming said:
Yes, you can shoot the image in the field so that the bright white's on the bird don't blow out.

Exactly how you do that depends on what mode you're shooting in and how you're metering the scene and the subject and scene itself. For instance if you spot meter on the bird you'd want that area to be about a stop and a half to two stops brighter than mid tone. So in full manual exposure with manual ISO that means spot metering the bird and having the meter read somewhere around 1.5 to 2 stops above the center (zero) reading. If you're shooting in an automated exposure mode like Shutter Priority, Aperture Priority or Manual with Auto ISO and you spot metered on the bird then you'd want to have roughly 1.5 to 2 stops of positive exposure compensation dialed in. But that's if you choose to spot meter on just the whites of the bird.

If you use Matrix Metering then with the bird relatively small in the frame and so much mid-tone and dark water surrounding it you'd want to compensate the other way as Matrix Metering sees the whole scene and would be heavily influenced by the large dark area of the water. So in that case in full manual mode with manual ISO you'd want the camera's meter to read roughly one to one and a half stops or so below zero to keep the dark water dark. Or if you shoot in any of the automated exposure modes including manual with auto ISO you'd want roughly 1 to 1.5 stops of negative exposure compensation dialed in. Looking at the image I'd use less negative compensation when shooting in Matrix Metering than the positive compensation I'd use for spot metering on just the white bird the reason being that some of that water is very dark but a lot of it has a sheen to it. IOW , a white bird should meter around 2 stops brighter than mid-tone (if spot metering just the bird) but the overall scene with the water won't be a full 2 stops below mid-tone as a lot of that water is near mid-tone and not all of it is dark (using matrix metering that looks at the entire frame).

There are other approaches depending on the camera like shooting in Highlight Weighted Matrix Metering which will put extra emphasis on making sure the highlights don't blow out but not all cameras support that metering mode.

Bottom line, there are ways to make sure white's don't blow out using the exposure controls right on the camera but how you go about that depends on the mode you shoot in, the metering mode you use and the specific scene as in what tones occupy the frame and whether you have large areas of dark or bright tones that might influence the chosen metering mode.

One simple way with a DSLR is to take a quick test shot and check the Blinkies and Histogram while reviewing the image on the rear panel LCD if the Blinkies (clipped highlights warning) blinks then expose for less light which either means adjusting to let less light in or to reduce sensitivity (i.e. use faster shutter speed, higher f/ stop or decrease ISO) when shooting in full manual with manual ISO. Or in any of the automated exposure modes dial in negative exposure compensation until a test shot doesn't show the blinkies or you no longer see a spike on the right hand edge of the histogram. Mirrorless cameras make this easier by showing the exposure right in the viewfinder before taking the shot and optionally showing the histogram in the electronic viewfinder so you can dial in changes in real time before taking any shots.

And those approaches might work for this particular shot but if you shot with a longer lens or got closer so the Egret took up a lot more of the frame or the area around the bird was green grass (which is very near mid-tone) then the specific amount you'd compensate or shift your metering expectations would change. But again a test shot and checking for blown out highlights (via blinkies or the histogram) is still a good way to check your exposure.

Great response. I'll save your response to use as a worksheet. I think everything yesterday was matrix metered and auto ISO at around 1000 shooting a manual preset. I'll start trying some changes today. Thanks.

Bob Hullinger · Jul 22, 2022

Stephen Berger said:
Birds that are all white or have big white patches are tough in less than perfect lighting conditions (and can be tough even then), I have my camera set to full manual and as I'm usually shooting wide open I adjust shutter and ISO to make sure the white bird isn't blown out and then I bring up the rest in LR. (or sometimes I don't and I let the white bird exist against darker background). I don't think most camera (or any?) are going to make that happen with in camera jpeg's. For the post process it's really the most basic tools, highlights, shadows, exposure, whites and blacks. And one you Gond that balance you can effect the saturation to tatste.

Here are a couple of examples.

Stephen Berger on Instagram: "Shake it off… . . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #morning #egret #birdphotography #fog #greategret #nuts_about_birds #animalphotography #bb_of_ig #portrait #yourshotphotographer #wildgeog

110 likes, 11 comments - stephen_berger on June 18, 2022: "Shake it off… . . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #morning #egret #birdphotography #fog #greategret #nu..."

www.instagram.com

Stephen Berger on Instagram: "Vogueing of sorts… . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #ocean #water #birdphotography #sunrise #egret #sunriselover #animalphotography #vogue #greategret #yourshotphotographer #wildgeography

113 likes, 11 comments - stephen_berger on June 5, 2022: "Vogueing of sorts… . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #ocean #water #birdphotography #sunrise #egret #su..."

www.instagram.com

Stephen Berger on Instagram: "Super groovy egret… . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #ocean #water #birdphotography #sunrise #egret #sunriselover #animalphotography #reflection #greategret #yourshotphotographer #wildgeo

114 likes, 15 comments - stephen_berger on May 18, 2022: "Super groovy egret… . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #ocean #water #birdphotography #sunrise #egret #s..."

www.instagram.com

Stephen Berger on Instagram: ". . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #ocean #ballet #birdphotography #sunset #egret #sunrise #animalphotography #reflection #snowyegret #yourshotphotographer #wildgeography #birdsofinstagra

78 likes, 3 comments - stephen_berger on February 25, 2022: ". . . . . #wildlifephotography #naturephotography #birds #sonyalpha #ocean #ballet #birdphotography #sunset #egret #sunrise #animalphotog..."

www.instagram.com

Thanks. If it was easy everybody would be doing it right

Time to practice more.

Bob Hullinger · Jul 22, 2022

Ralph said:
Definitely take a few test Shots to adjust either with exposure compensation or shoor manual and adjust aperture and/or shutterspeed accordingly. What I usually do is shoot using matrix metering with manual mode and auto ISO. I then adjust with EC. When white birds are involved or dark birds with some white on them like an Osprey or Eagle, I adjust EC to under expose by anywhere from -.3 to -1.0 and then pull out the shadows in post processing. That works well for me.
But one mistake I’ll usually make is to forget to take a few test shots and adjust accordingly. So, in situations like this fire a few and don’t forget to check using blinkies. There are other approaches as well such as spot metering as Dave mentions above , so do whatever works best for you.

Thanks, Ralph. No suggestion will go untried. Another year or two and I'll have sorme of his stuff down pat...maybe.

bleirer · Jul 22, 2022

To me the secret to blowouts is the blinkies. The meter is almost irrelevant except to get in the right ballpark. If you take a test shot in full matrix metering and playback with your overexposure warnings on, you would see the bird wing blinking to indicate that it is blown or close to blown. Depending on your auto mode you would dial in some negative compensation and take another test shot, repeat until the blinkies are gone.

I normally shoot either full manual or manual with auto iso. For the latter your EC dial will control the iso. So get the shuuter as fast as you need it but not too fast, get the f number for the depth of field or subject isolation you want, then use the exposure compensation to control the iso until the blinkies stop. If full manual do the same but control the iso yourself.

Butlerkid · Jul 22, 2022

Using the information a histogram provides can be applied almost every genre of photography.

Bob Hullinger · Jul 22, 2022

Butlerkid said:
Using the information a histogram provides can be applied almost every genre of photography.

Got it. I just finished rewatching Steve's Exposure Compensation Made Easy video and it seems like I missed my under exposure by a click or two because of too much dark background for the size of the bright white target. Do you think that's true?

How about RAW histograms? I only shot RAW copies since I expected to have to do at least a little adjusting. I've even experimented, unsuccessfully so far, with exposing to the left for exactly this kind of issue. I don't think I am ready to be a regular ETTL user from the results I have gotten. Do any of your cameras show a raw histogram? According to what I read the Z7 doesn't and the histogram displayed doesn't reflect what is happening in the raw data. Have you found it to be true that blown out JPG histograms may clip several stops below what is actually lost in RAW data?

Thanks again.

DRwyoming · Jul 22, 2022

Bobh2000 said:
Got it. I just finished rewatching Steve's Exposure Compensation Made Easy video and it seems like I missed my under exposure by a click or two because of too much dark background for the size of the bright white target. Do you think that's true?

How about RAW histograms? I only shot RAW copies since I expected to have to do at least a little adjusting. I've even experimented, unsuccessfully so far, with exposing to the left for exactly this kind of issue. I don't think I am ready to be a regular ETTL user from the results I have gotten. Do any of your cameras show a raw histogram? According to what I read the Z7 doesn't and the histogram displayed doesn't reflect what is happening in the raw data. Have you found it to be true that blown out JPG histograms may clip several stops below what is actually lost in RAW data?

Thanks again.

A couple of thoughts:

Yeah, in the image that started this thread Matrix Metering would tend to overexpose the image due to all the darker water tones filling the frame. But it's not that you '... missed your under exposure by a click or two...' it's that you missed proper exposure. IOW, exposing properly for a scene like that isn't 'under exposure' it's still correct exposure it's just that the meter is heavily influenced by all that dark area and if you don't compensate will end up over exposing the image.

Remember that exposure meters work on the assumption that the entire world has 18% reflectivity (mid tone) and since the camera doesn't know what kind of scene you're filling the frame with it will tend to over exposure largely dark scenes and under expose largely bright scenes (e.g. snow or bright sand). One way to think about the exposure compensation dial when shooting in an automated exposure mode is you're telling the camera that this particular scene is darker or brighter than mid-tone so you get the correct exposure or close to it. When shooting in spot metering mode you're basically telling the camera that the relatively small area under the metering spot (area around selected focus point in Nikon cameras) is brighter or darker than mid-tone and by how much so when spot metering the Egret's body you're telling the camera that you'd like those areas to be captured around 2 stops brighter than mid tone by dialing in roughly 2 stops of positive exposure compensation.

When you shoot raw a small embedded jpeg is also created, that's actually the image you see when you do an image review in the field right on the camera. The histogram and any highlight warnings (blinkies) you look at in the field are actually based on this embedded jpeg. So yeah, there can be a bit of difference between the histogram and blinkies for the embedded jpeg and the actual raw data with the raw data typically having a bit more exposure latitude. IOW, you can often get by with slightly brighter tones without hard clipping them in the raw file than what your blinkies or histogram might indicate for the embedded jpeg. But those differences are typically small as in a third to maybe half a stop or so. Basically checking exposure after a test shot in camera does use the embedded jpeg so it won't perfectly show you what the raw file sees but it gets you very close but sometimes, I'll accept a tiny bit of white clipping (tiny blinkie areas) in the field knowing I have a bit more exposure latitude when I process the raw files.

And of course the big issue with clipping highlights is losing important detail like in the wings of your all white Egret. But some clipping of specular highlights in areas without important detail like sparkles off of glass surfaces or sometimes small blown out tips of whitewater on a river or other things can be acceptable and help the image. So it's not like every clipped highlight kills an image, it's the clipping of areas that should retain detail that we're generally trying to avoid.

Bob Hullinger · Jul 22, 2022

bleirer said:
To me the secret to blowouts is the blinkies. The meter is almost irrelevant except to get in the right ballpark. If you take a test shot in full matrix metering and playback with your overexposure warnings on, you would see the bird wing blinking to indicate that it is blown or close to blown. Depending on your auto mode you would dial in some negative compensation and take another test shot, repeat until the blinkies are gone.

I normally shoot either full manual or manual with auto iso. For the latter your EC dial will control the iso. So get the shuuter as fast as you need it but not too fast, get the f number for the depth of field or subject isolation you want, then use the exposure compensation to control the iso until the blinkies stop. If full manual do the same but control the iso yourself.

Do you know how to activate blinkies on a Z7? I have tried and failed. I can't find a setting number for Z7 stills blinkies. I'd love to use them. It's g6 Highlight Display for Movie and is greyed out on my menu. To make the option active in the Movies settings I have to turn off focus peaking in the Display menu and then acticavte Highlight display but it doesn't seem to affects stills. My shooting world will improve if someone can tell me how to enable the feature for stills.

Thanks.

Bob Hullinger · Jul 22, 2022

Bobh2000 said:
Thanks. The low ISO was coincidentental to what had been shooting. I wasn't really birding. I was at a nature preserve near a marina shooting stuff with a new lens I hadn't used enough yet. It was a 3 hour fun run out in the country. The bird was there when I drove by. I was taking general photographs and the bird was a target of opportunity.

I actually have very little interest in focusing my shooting solely on long range birds in flight right now. I'm about a year or two away from considering serious birding. Right building my skill set is what I am trying to achieve.

And besides, too many others of you do that way better than I do and it would be impossible for me to create anything original with all the great work you and the others here already create. Not that I won't shoot BIF when I am in bird land but I wasn't out specifically looking for birds or anything else that moved View attachment 43258 View attachment 43260fast to shoot yesterday

The lesson learned I am going for by posting this is blow outs and first, using my camera to not create them and second, fixing them if I can't avoid them. And I really do appreciate your help. I want to be capable of shooting any subject properly someday.

Had I arrived at that area with a longer len and tripod the bird would have been gone before exposure became relevant. The bird was posing when I shot him and decided to try to catch a fish and that's why the movement is there. He missed the fish or this would have been a fish on a birds beak picture. For reference I had crept along the shoreline hiding behind trees to get closer and ran out of trees

I am posting a few more shots to better illustrate the situation. Me creeping up on him, him flying away from me and the type of shot I was taking before spotting the birds in the canal. Forgive the general imperfections. They are all straight out of the camera and sent using BCF export formatting. I shot the standing bird from my car window before he took off. View attachment 43261

Almost forgot to mention, I get that 1/500s is way too slow to hope for great results with flying birds.

DRwyoming · Jul 22, 2022

Bobh2000 said:
Do you know how to activate blinkies on a Z7? I have tried and failed. I can't find a setting number for Z7 stills blinkies. I'd love to use them. It's g6 Highlight Display for Movie and is greyed out on my menu. To make the option active in the Movies settings I have to turn off focus peaking in the Display menu and then acticavte Highlight display but it doesn't seem to affects stills. My shooting world will improve if someone can tell me how to enable the feature for stills.

Thanks.

The Z 7 won't show blinkies in real time through the EVF in stills mode. In movie mode you can see them in the EVF prior to capturing a test image as you noted using the g6 selection but not while shooting stills. But you can still view blinkies during image review after taking a test image.

What you can do in the Z7 is chose to display your histogram in the EVF prior to taking the image. The equivalent to blinkies while viewing a histogram is a vertical spike on the right hand edge of the histogram indicating blown out bright tones at the top of the tonal range which will show up when you have a substantial amount of the image pixels with clipped highlights. Blinkies in the EVF prior to capturing an image would be a great addition but Nikon doesn't currently support that during still photography but does when shooting movies.

Bob Hullinger · Jul 22, 2022

DRwyoming said:
A couple of thoughts:

Yeah, in the image that started this thread Matrix Metering would tend to overexpose the image due to all the darker water tones filling the frame. But it's not that you '... missed your under exposure by a click or two...' it's that you missed proper exposure. IOW, exposing properly for a scene like that isn't 'under exposure' it's still correct exposure it's just that the meter is heavily influenced by all that dark area and if you don't compensate will end up over exposing the image.

Remember that exposure meters work on the assumption that the entire world has 18% reflectivity (mid tone) and since the camera doesn't know what kind of scene you're filling the frame with it will tend to over exposure largely dark scenes and under expose largely bright scenes (e.g. snow or bright sand). One way to think about the exposure compensation dial when shooting in an automated exposure mode is you're telling the camera that this particular scene is darker or brighter than mid-tone so you get the correct exposure or close to it. When shooting in spot metering mode you're basically telling the camera that the relatively small area under the metering spot (selected focus point) is brighter or darker than mid-tone and by how much so when spot metering the Egret's body you're telling the camera that you'd like those areas to be captured around 2 stops brighter than mid tone by dialing in roughly 2 stops of positive exposure compensation.

When you shoot raw a small embedded jpeg is also created, that's actually the image you see when you do an image review in the field right on the camera. The histogram and any highlight warnings (blinkies) you look at in the field are actually based on this embedded jpeg. So yeah, there can be a bit of difference between the histogram and blinkies for the embedded jpeg and the actual raw data with the raw data typically having a bit more exposure latitude. IOW, you can often get by with slightly brighter tones without hard clipping them in the raw file than what your blinkies or histogram might indicate for the embedded jpeg. But those differences are typically small as in a third to maybe half a stop or so. Basically checking exposure after a test shot in camera does use the embedded jpeg so it won't perfectly show you what the raw file sees but it gets you very close but sometimes, I'll accept a tiny bit of white clipping (tiny blinkie areas) in the field knowing I have a bit more exposure latitude when I process the raw files.

And of course the big issue with clipping highlights is losing important detail like in the wings of your all white Egret. But some clipping of specular highlights in areas without important detail like sparkles off of glass surfaces or sometimes small blown out tips of whitewater on a river or other things can be acceptable and help the image. So it's not like every clipped highlight kills an image, it's the clipping of areas that should retain detail that we're generally trying to avoid

I understand.

First off that there are better ways I could have metered that shot as you suggested. I need work on my metering.

I just finished watching Steve's video again and used the incorrect term, "under exposure". I should have said had I dialed in more negative compensation. I agree I had my settings wrong. My point was more, that according to Steve, is it true that if I had compensated more with my control ring EC setting I would have prevented the clipping and saved the data. The birds head would have turned gray but I could correct that later. You answered that I think.

Ironically, I have a function button set for switching to spot metering but I wasn't concentrating on this issue when shot that image. I have my video release button custom control set to allow me to dial between single point and auto area focus also for situations when the subject hides and I want to isolate it. I use the spot metering function button along with it as required when I have to shoot tight on something.

I found the Z7 highlight setting finally and turned it on so now it joins my DSLRs in blinking like crazy when I get it wrong!

Two things I would hope for when I shoot images similar this one in the future is to have the image show that egrets have indivdual feathers on their wings and are not flat like an airplane wing and that people looking at my pictures don't have to put on sunglasses to keep the glare from hurting their eyes

If you come up with anything else keep it coming.

Not sure if you ever played any golf but one thing I learned when I was trying to learn to draw or fade my drives around doglegs was that I had to be able to hit a straight shot consistently before I could learn to bend a ball. Cameras are a lot like golf. It's hard to do advanced shots if I can't do the basics.

This is a lot like that. Changes have been made. Now I am going out to use some of them.

Thanks very much for the help.

Bob Hullinger · Jul 22, 2022

DRwyoming said:
The Z 7 won't show blinkies in real time through the EVF in stills mode. In movie mode you can see them in the EVF prior to capturing a test image as you noted using the g6 selection but not while shooting stills. But you can still view blinkies during image review after taking a test image.

What you can do in the Z7 is chose to display your histogram in the EVF prior to taking the image. The equivalent to blinkies while viewing a histogram is a vertical spike on the right hand edge of the histogram indicating blown out bright tones at the top of the tonal range which will show up when you have a substantial amount of the image pixels with clipped highlights. Blinkies in the EVF would be a great addition but Nikon doesn't currently support that during still photography but does when shooting movies.

I didn't have highlights turned on in the display setting. Thanks.

DRwyoming · Jul 22, 2022

Bobh2000 said:
Two things I would hope for when I shoot images similar this one in the future is to have the image show that egrets have indivdual feathers on their wings and are not flat like an airplane wing and that people looking at my pictures don't have to put on sunglasses to keep the glare from hurting their eyes

I hear you and good exposure for very bright subjects like Egrets is challenging. Even if you nail the exposure in-camera it's common to have trouble seeing wing detail in the captured image. Proper exposure can prevent completely clipped (blown out) highlights but a lot of those bright white tones are still relatively bright and contrast and detail is often lacking. The solution is to use the Highlights slider during processing to pull down the highlights a bit which can reveal detail, if the shot is completely blown out this won't help but for a well exposed shot where the highlights aren't blown out the Highlight recovery slider can work wonders to reveal important detail. I do this frequently for the white feathers of birds and also for a lot of snowy shots where again the details can be lost in those highlight areas even though they're not actually blown out (hard clipped).

Bobh2000 said:
If you come up with anything else keep it coming.

If you really want to master this stuff it can help to set up some scenarios right in your back yard and practice metering and compensation for a variety of subjects, subject sizes in the frame, backgrounds and lighting conditions. Way back in the film days I read some good books by Moose Peterson and attended one of his workshops. He advocated what he calls The Teddy Bear Exercise as a way for folks to master exposure of wildlife subjects in a controlled way. I burnt through a lot of rolls of film doing this and variations on this exercise which was a lot more painful than doing it today with digital cameras and near instant feedback. Here's a link to the exercise: https://www.moosepeterson.com/blog/mooses-infamous-teddy-bear-exposure-compensation-test/

The in-camera tools are much better today especially with the WYSIWYG viewfinder and real time histogram capabilities of mirrorless cameras or even the blinkie and histogram during image review in DSLRs but the process of metering and how you might handle different subjects, different backgrounds, different subject sizes in the frame and different lighting conditions remains the same.

bleirer · Jul 22, 2022

DRwyoming said:
The Z 7 won't show blinkies in real time through the EVF in stills mode. In movie mode you can see them in the EVF prior to capturing a test image as you noted using the g6 selection but not while shooting stills. But you can still view blinkies during image review after taking a test image.

What you can do in the Z7 is chose to display your histogram in the EVF prior to taking the image. The equivalent to blinkies while viewing a histogram is a vertical spike on the right hand edge of the histogram indicating blown out bright tones at the top of the tonal range which will show up when you have a substantial amount of the image pixels with clipped highlights. Blinkies in the EVF would be a great addition but Nikon doesn't currently support that during still photography but does when shooting movies.

.
Just to add to the good answers given, the downside of the histogram is that you don't know where the blown area is. You see the spike but it could just be some bright highlight you don't care about. The test shot with the blinkie shows you which part is blown. In general cameras start to show blinkies in the review about 2.5 stops above middle but can really go in raw 3 1/3 or 3.5 stops. So if you find the highest non blinkie exposure you can safely add 2/3 stops to that.

Even though your camera has great dynamic range, that benefit usually shows up below middle in the shadows,

Bob Hullinger · Jul 22, 2022

DRwyoming said:
I hear you and good exposure for very bright subjects like Egrets is challenging. Even if you nail the exposure in-camera it's common to have trouble seeing wing detail in the captured image. Proper exposure can prevent completely clipped (blown out) highlights but a lot of those bright white tones are still relatively bright and contrast and detail is often lacking. The solution is to use the Highlights slider during processing to pull down the highlights a bit which can reveal detail, if the shot is completely blown out this won't help but for a well exposed shot where the highlights aren't blown out the Highlight recovery slider can work wonders to reveal important detail. I do this frequently for the white feathers of birds and also for a lot of snowy shots where again the details can be lost in those highlight areas even though they're not actually blown out (hard clipped).

If you really want to master this stuff it can help to set up some scenarios right in your back yard and practice metering and compensation for a variety of subjects, subject sizes in the frame, backgrounds and lighting conditions. Way back in the film days I read some good books by Moose Peterson and attended one of his workshops. He advocated what he calls The Teddy Bear Exercise as a way for folks to master exposure of wildlife subjects in a controlled way. I burnt through a lot of rolls of film doing this and variations on this exercise which was a lot more painful than doing it today with digital cameras and near instant feedback. Here's a link to the exercise: https://www.moosepeterson.com/blog/mooses-infamous-teddy-bear-exposure-compensation-test/

The in-camera tools are much better today especially with the WYSIWYG viewfinder and real time histogram capabilities of mirrorless cameras or even the blinkie and histogram during image review in DSLRs but the process of metering and how you might handle different subjects, different backgrounds, different subject sizes in the frame and different lighting conditions remains the same.

I can relate to in-camera tools being better. I started backwards with a Z7 about 18 months ago moving up from my Sony RX10 MK4. And next came a D500 and then a 700 and an 810 and an 850. I tether shoot alot and DSLRs work great tethered to a computer and will never be obsolete in that sense. Before that the last time I shot interchangeable lenses was back around 1975. I still have a suitcase full of 35mm cameras and a couple of 2 and a quarters. My first memory of 2 and a quarter photography was forgetting to crank it after each shot to advance the film and going into the dark room and finding a roll of double and triple exposures. And people today don't think the Z9 does enough for them

jeffnles1 · Jul 22, 2022

Bobh2000 said:
I can relate to in-camera tools being better. I started backwards with a Z7 about 18 months ago moving up from my Sony RX10 MK4. And next came a D500 and then a 700 and an 810 and an 850. I tether shoot alot and DSLRs work great tethered to a computer and will never be obsolete in that sense. Before that the last time I shot interchangeable lenses was back around 1975. I still have a suitcase full of 35mm cameras and a couple of 2 and a quarters. My first memory of 2 and a quarter photography was forgetting to crank it after each shot to advance the film and going into the dark room and finding a roll of double and triple exposures. And people today don't think the Z9 does enough for them

The RX10iv is a great camera. It is my wife's primary camera and I have one that I use for backup and as a video camera to go along with my D500.
Jeff

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