D500 White balance issues in evening light

[KCPhoto]

So, I have googled, and forum searched this and am coming up with nothing. I have been shooting the last few nights till at least sunset. What I am experiencing is on some bursts my D500 is choosing some ridiculous WB like 8800 and causing extremely warm to the point of red and pink color casts. I say some bursts as it seems to come on, if that makes sense. Like at first it will inadvertently miss...then as time/light goes, it will just begin to always use those extremely warm k values. Keeping in mind this is very late into the "golden hour" and things are pretty gold at this point. I shoot RAW of course so fixing in post is the option. But it is hard to get where I need to be when SO far off to start with. Is this just something I have to deal with and maybe not be using AUTO WB when the sun is very low? I generally run Manual w/ autoISO for exposure but have never really had a need to leave auto WB when outdoors and not under man-made lighting.
*edit: Also, I am not trying to defeat the purpose of that beautiful light at that time of evening...just that this is coming up so unnatural looking, I feel like something I am doing is likely wrong.

 

[Palouse]

Is WB bracketing set on by chance?

 

[kimball]

Sadly Auto WB cannot determine the actual color cast of the light source(s) in your scene. There is no color meter in any of our cameras unfortunately. AWB is just an algorithmic best guess based on the pixel values recorded by the sensor, a guess that hopes the recorded scene is of average color and lightness values and that it's appropriate to neutralize any excessive amounts of blue, yellow, green, and/or magenta.

Generally speaking AWB tries to eliminate color casts with its guesswork. This works kinda OK in scenes where your brain is also successfully eliminating color casts, but during golden hour, blue hour, or other extreme lighting conditions where our brains perceive color casts, AWB is your worst enemy. You are better off shooting with the Daylight WB preset anytime you're outdoors, and switching selectively to the Cloudy or Shade WB presets when those situations arise or during sunset & blue hour conditions. Then you can easily season to taste in post from a consistent starting point.

No matter what WB preset you choose, as long as you use it consistently it will always give you a more consistent starting point for your raw edits, and let you actually see how the color of the light changed throughout the morning, day, and/or evening.

Meanwhile AWB will give you a different WB each time you change your composition to include differently colored objects, even if the lighting stays the same. AWB can't differentiate between a large red object and a red color cast. It will try to neutralize the excessive reds in both. There is nothing consistent or predictable about AWB and I'd recommend moving away from it, unless you're shooting indoors under very difficult mixed artificial lighting conditions that no camera preset handles well.

Just my (opinionated) $0.02.

 

[KCPhoto]

@kimball Thank you for the explaination. It is honestly what I figured would be the answer to my question. The variences you mentioned to avoid by going away from Auto are exactly my biggest issue. Obviously, with RAW I can make changes. But, having a consistent starting point does sound way better. Do it all the time with AE lock or Full Manual for just that reason. Didn't think of it for WB.

 

[Warren D]

I moved away from AWB many years ago and shoot mostly at 5600K.
Shot @ 5600K:

Now if I were shooting objects in this light I might change WB and in the early morning light usually drop to 5300K unless my light source is skylight in which case I'd go to 6000-6500K. I try to get WB as close as possible in camera. While you can change it later if shooting RAW, if you miss by a lot you run the risk of blowing out one of the color channels. Once you do that, you'll not be able to recover that which was blown out.
Like most things, the more you think about it and experiment, the more you learn. I learned WB back in the film days when we had to use filters and didn't have instant feedback. Using the RGB histogram can help a lot as long as you understand what you are looking at!

 

[KCPhoto]

Great shot Warren. I will begin experimenting. This is what it is all about for me. Finding constant improvement not only in subject, but more importantly knowledge so when that once in a lifetime chance happens, we are ready.

 

[Thern]

You can also use a white balance Lens cap or card and dial in a custom white balance.
It’s quick, takes less than a minute to use and you won’t have to fiddle with colorcasts in PP afterwards.
I hear a lot of people stating shoot in raw and adjust if necessairy in PP but if you can avoid that it’s better imo.
Sure it’s not allways possible but most of the time it is.

 

[Venkatesh VT]

I had a similar issue with D 500 while shooting during the evening hours.I did not happen to all bursts but only for few bursts.I did not give much of a thought at that time.
I don't whether exposure compensation could be a solution or some other method.
Any how I will certainly be watching the issue next time and play around with various WB settings

 

[kimball]

You can also use a white balance Lens cap or card and dial in a custom white balance.
It’s quick, takes less than a minute to use and you won’t have to fiddle with colorcasts in PP afterwards.
I hear a lot of people stating shoot in raw and adjust if necessairy in PP but if you can avoid that it’s better imo.
Sure it’s not allways possible but most of the time it is.

Agreed, a gray card or white balance lens cap can be very handy to have, especially under difficult lighting conditions (for example indoors under multiple different artificial light sources) where one of your camera's presets isn't achieving your desired look and you don't trust AWB to give you consistent results.

However personally I find them fiddly for everyday use outdoors, and when I start to use them then I begin to have anxiety about whether another shot 15 minutes later needs yet another test shot with a card in it or not. I find these tools to enable an unhealthy "pursuit of perfection" in me that gets distracting when I know that a Daylight WB preset in my camera will actually give me more consistent results and cause me to worry less.

There's also all sorts of caveats with gray cards and WB lens caps. In addition to neutralizing the color of your light source, they'll also neutralize any dominant color reflecting onto them that you may not even notice. Doing macro work in your garden? Hold it too close to your lawn and you'll accidentally get a subtle green reflection on the card, thus when you go to adjust WB in post you'll end up accidentally adding too much magenta and de-emphasizing the greens in your image.

Or perhaps you're standing in shade and taking a picture of a daytime sunlit scene. If you shoot the gray card in your hand--in the shade--then your sunlit scene will come out noticeably warmer than expected. This can actually be used for great effect as described in the blog post below. The author is more enthusiastic about gray cards than I am, but either way it's an excellent post. My only point is that they are not a panacea and they can have unexpected consequences if you're not careful and intentional when using them.

White Balance —Learning to See

White Balance 101 — The Basics

medium.com

 

[Thern]

Agreed, a gray card or white balance lens cap can be very handy to have, especially under difficult lighting conditions (for example indoors under multiple different artificial light sources) where one of your camera's presets isn't achieving your desired look and you don't trust AWB to give you consistent results.

However personally I find them fiddly for everyday use outdoors, and when I start to use them then I begin to have anxiety about whether another shot 15 minutes later needs yet another test shot with a card in it or not. I find these tools to enable an unhealthy "pursuit of perfection" in me that gets distracting when I know that a Daylight WB preset in my camera will actually give me more consistent results and cause me to worry less.

There's also all sorts of caveats with gray cards and WB lens caps. In addition to neutralizing the color of your light source, they'll also neutralize any dominant color reflecting onto them that you may not even notice. Doing macro work in your garden? Hold it too close to your lawn and you'll accidentally get a subtle green reflection on the card, thus when you go to adjust WB in post you'll end up accidentally adding too much magenta and de-emphasizing the greens in your image.

Or perhaps you're standing in shade and taking a picture of a daytime sunlit scene. If you shoot the gray card in your hand--in the shade--then your sunlit scene will come out noticeably warmer than expected. This can actually be used for great effect as described in the blog post below. The author is more enthusiastic about gray cards than I am, but either way it's an excellent post. My only point is that they are not a panacea and they can have unexpected consequences if you're not careful and intentional when using them.

White Balance —Learning to See

White Balance 101 — The Basics

medium.com

Well said and sure you’re correct, but on the other hand one should know his/hers drill and learn how to use and dial in custom WB. (Imo)
It’s like anything else in photography involving the technical aspects I think....

 

[KCPhoto]

Agreed, a gray card or white balance lens cap can be very handy to have, especially under difficult lighting conditions (for example indoors under multiple different artificial light sources) where one of your camera's presets isn't achieving your desired look and you don't trust AWB to give you consistent results.

However personally I find them fiddly for everyday use outdoors, and when I start to use them then I begin to have anxiety about whether another shot 15 minutes later needs yet another test shot with a card in it or not. I find these tools to enable an unhealthy "pursuit of perfection" in me that gets distracting when I know that a Daylight WB preset in my camera will actually give me more consistent results and cause me to worry less.

There's also all sorts of caveats with gray cards and WB lens caps. In addition to neutralizing the color of your light source, they'll also neutralize any dominant color reflecting onto them that you may not even notice. Doing macro work in your garden? Hold it too close to your lawn and you'll accidentally get a subtle green reflection on the card, thus when you go to adjust WB in post you'll end up accidentally adding too much magenta and de-emphasizing the greens in your image.

Or perhaps you're standing in shade and taking a picture of a daytime sunlit scene. If you shoot the gray card in your hand--in the shade--then your sunlit scene will come out noticeably warmer than expected. This can actually be used for great effect as described in the blog post below. The author is more enthusiastic about gray cards than I am, but either way it's an excellent post. My only point is that they are not a panacea and they can have unexpected consequences if you're not careful and intentional when using them.

White Balance —Learning to See

White Balance 101 — The Basics

medium.com

Great read. Thanks Kimball

 

[MartyD]

I am curious in your post that you say in some "bursts". Is the WB off in all of the images in a burst, or if you take a burst of 30 images are a few of the images in the burst off? I have had some experiences in shooting bursts on my D500 in less than optimal lighting, that if I am panning and the lighting changes, specifically if there is a new background light source introduced, that my D500 doesn't recalculate WB quickly enough when shooting 10FPS.

The only solution I have found if I anticipate it being a problem is set a custom white balance.

 

[KCPhoto]

No the entire burst would be consistent. But based on responses here and more reading, I think it was just me witnessing the transition from blue sky light to almost entirely sidelight from the very low on the horizon sun. There were a couple short bursts where it seemed to calculate kind of back and forth if that makes sense

 

[Ken Miracle]

I have heard in person from one Nikon Engineer and from a trusted source who is a Nikon Pro line dealer and a great pro photographer that Nikon WB cloudy in most Nikon cameras is the most accurate, then direct sunlight and flash and least is reliable is shade but works well for the blue hour. D500 auto WB as noted by others is spotty and ironically last night I decided while processing the latest shoot to go back to using cloudy and direct sunlight on D500. On the D850 I have had excellent results with Natural Light Auto far better than my D500's. I am primarily a bird and wildlife photographer and my favorite is birds in flight and frequently even the sitting small birds I shoot are in the shadows and hopping around between light levels and colors.

 

[kimball]

I have heard in person from one Nikon Engineer and from a trusted source who is a Nikon Pro line dealer and a great pro photographer that Nikon WB cloudy in most Nikon cameras is the most accurate

Insofar as WB is a tool to match our brain's memory of the colors of a scene or object, there is no "most accurate" WB, because our memories are colored by our other senses and emotions. WB is a subjective choice with no explicit, definite right or wrong. And in any case, unless you're shooting in a studio under controlled lighting temperatures, all typical photographic scenes have mixed lighting of multiple color casts. Even outside on a bright sunny day, you've got direct yellow sunlight combined with blue sky light. That's why shaded areas can often come out blue-- they are literally being lit by the blue sky, but not the yellow sun. So is it correct to WB in the sun, in the shade, or a mix of both? What about 5 minutes later when a cloud passes in front of the sun?

Cloudy is absolutely a fine default preset to shoot with if you prefer a warmer default than Daylight and don't want the constant fluctuations and neutralizing of AWB. But there's nothing inherently more "accurate" about it, unless you're using it on... a cloudy day!

I'd humbly encourage folks not to think in terms of WB accuracy, but in terms of WB aesthetics, your photographic/artistic intention, how your chosen WB reflects your memory of the scene, and how your chosen WB reflects what you felt when in the moment as you were photographing the scene.

 

[Ken Miracle]

Insofar as WB is a tool to match our brain's memory of the colors of a scene or object, there is no "most accurate" WB, because our memories are colored by our other senses and emotions. WB is a subjective choice with no explicit, definite right or wrong. And in any case, unless you're shooting in a studio under controlled lighting temperatures, all typical photographic scenes have mixed lighting of multiple color casts. Even outside on a bright sunny day, you've got direct yellow sunlight combined with blue sky light. That's why shaded areas can often come out blue-- they are literally being lit by the blue sky, but not the yellow sun. So is it correct to WB in the sun, in the shade, or a mix of both? What about 5 minutes later when a cloud passes in front of the sun?

Cloudy is absolutely a fine default preset to shoot with if you prefer a warmer default than Daylight and don't want the constant fluctuations and neutralizing of AWB. But there's nothing inherently more "accurate" about it, unless you're using it on... a cloudy day!

I'd humbly encourage folks not to think in terms of WB accuracy, but in terms of WB aesthetics, your photographic/artistic intention, how your chosen WB reflects your memory of the scene, and how your chosen WB reflects what you felt when in the moment as you were photographing the scene.

Well said and the engineer were discussing the best results for cloudy conditions or sunny conditions close to the kelvin values that a meter would read. And yes I have had many a white feathered bird be blue on the shady side depending on what the sun is doing relative to the bird at that moment. Also had to take a brush or other tool in LR to the feathers to correct the WB to what I want if I do not want my over all image color balance to change So when setting the WB on D500 I have to constantly be aware of changing light conditions. Luckily the D850 has me changing WB/color in LR very infrequently when in Natural Light Auto. My favorite lighting conditions for birds is a thin evenly overcast sky ... to bad I can not dial that up as needed.

 

[EricBowles]

One trick that might help is to use Live View to help set your white balance. You can scroll through several WB options and pick the one that is closest to your scene.

Auto WB is intended to neutralize colors. It's great for studios and places where you want neutral light color. But if you want the warm tones of the golden hour, blue tones of the blue hour or a foggy morning, or green tones of a lush forest scene, you'll want to choose a WB that retains colors. I usually start with Daylight WB if I'm outdoors. For golden hours it usually needs to be a little warmer - possibly Cloudy. For indoor scenes I start with Auto WB.

Be careful about using settings or values across different camera brands or software programs. Daylight WB has different values in Adobe Lightroom vs. Nikon Capture NX-D. Even a Kelvin temperature of 5600 is not the same in all software programs. Some programs are a little warmer or cooler than others.

 

[KCPhoto]

Thank you all for the responses.