D7500 vs D500 - autofocus

[Fenrir]

I currently use D7500 with 200-500mm for bird photography. After upgrading from D5600 (less than a year ago) I'm very satisfied with the speed, buffer, ergonomics and low light performance.

However there's one aspect I ocassionally complain about - I get considerable number of images with focus plane landing slightly behind or in front of bird's eye (mostly behind), even when I keep the focus point on the eye in the viewfinder (single point mode). It was more or less the same with D5600 which has 39 AF points instead of 51.

I don't think it's the problem with AF fine tuning though, the results are too inconsistent for that. Sometimes focus lands perfectly fine and ocassionally I get some front focus too.

So now I'm wondering, is AF in D500 a significant step up in this regard? Obviously Z8 would be the best answer to this problem, but it's nowhere near my budget.

Or maybe I'm looking at this completely wrong and the problem lies a few inches behind the viewfinder?

Any insights appreciated!

EDIT: One more thing to mention, probably quite important: I'm using AF-C with back button focus. I usually keep the back button pressed when keeping the AF point on the eye.

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[PhotoLover]

I have a D7500 and more recently added a D500. Though the D500 has supposedly better AF, in practice I see little difference in the two using a 500 pf. This doing lots of bird photography, including BIF.

I've not seen your issue with slightly out of focus areas using either camera with the 500 pf or any other lens (including the 200-500 I rented for a week). It is quite easy with a narrow depth of field to let that focus point slip juuuust a bit off where you want and wind up with a focus miss; certainly that sometimes happens to me, especially if the critter is restless.

What happens if you just put the focus point on a tree trunk at your usual wildlife distances? Maybe even put it on a tripod. Do you have focus point set in the Playback display?

To specifically answer your question, I do not think a D500 would solve your problem, unless there is a defect with your D7500. I note that the 500 pf I use most of the time has faster AF than the 200-500.

 

[AlanB313]

I shoot with a d500 and two lenses mostly, a 500mm pf f5.6 and a 300mm f4 pf with and without a 1.4tc. I some of the same problems you have mentioned. I think in my case, the problem is a few inches behind the viewfinder.

I think my photos really improved with a lighter weight lens like the 500mm which replaced a tamron 150-600 g2. AF is faster and I can move the lens better to follow BIF. If you have an opportunity to try one, I'd take it.

I plan on renting a z8 to see if the bird eye AF will solve some of my problems, but I have to wait until nikon updates its firmware to include bird eye AF. The z9 would be nice but it's even more of a reach.

If you like the 500mm pf, they are readily available used, including on this forum. It's a lens that works across the platforms.
Many are using this lens still after moving to mirrorless. I really like my 300mm with the tc but this combo would be replaced by a 400mm f4.5 if I go mirrorless.
If you figure out some solutions to your issues, please post back, I think they are common to others like me that are learning.
Thanks

 

[Turberticus]

I just made the leap (small skip?) from a D7500 to a D500. I also use the 200-500 and didn't have many issues with focus missing the eye (I use single point AF in AF-C mode), though I have noticed it was less consistent than my D500 once I had it dialed in.

I had to mess with the AF fine tune on my D500 because it was back focusing. I finally settled on a default AF fine tune value setting of -19. FYI the default AF fine tune value is about 2.5x stronger than the saved lens value. Assuming you delete the saved lens value, the default setting will have priority. I might send it back to KEH to fix the AF sensors as it's close to being out of AF fine tune range. That's just an issue I was dealing with and I'm sure most D500s out there won't have this issue.

Anyway, now that I've dialed in the D500 I've noticed that the AF is snappier and will even try to track the bird if it flies off the perch toward me without even trying. The new option to map AF modes to the PV button and FN1 buttons on the front of the camera is also a huge plus, not to mention the 10 FPS. I haven't taken any BIF shots yet but I imagine I'll have a better keeper rate.

If I had the finances (young toddler in daycare!) I probably would have waited for the Z6iii or maybe settled for a Z6ii since I don't shoot a lot of BIF.

Despite the initial AF fine tune issues I'm pretty happy with the D500. My last few posts in the wildlife photography presentation forum and on my flickr were shot with the D500 if you want to take a look.

 

[PhotoLover]

I just made the leap (small skip?) from a D7500 to a D500. I also use the 200-500 and didn't have many issues with focus missing the eye (I use single point AF in AF-C mode), though I have noticed it was less consistent than my D500 once I had it dialed in.

I had to mess with the AF fine tune on my D500 because it was back focusing. I finally settled on a default AF fine tune value setting of -19. FYI the default AF fine tune value is about 2.5x stronger than the saved lens value. Assuming you delete the saved lens value, the default setting will have priority. I might send it back to KEH to fix the AF sensors as it's close to being out of AF fine tune range. That's just an issue I was dealing with and I'm sure most D500s out there won't have this issue.

Anyway, now that I've dialed in the D500 I've noticed that the AF is snappier and will even try to track the bird if it flies off the perch toward me without even trying. The new option to map AF modes to the PV button and FN1 buttons on the front of the camera is also a huge plus, not to mention the 10 FPS. I haven't taken any BIF shots yet but I imagine I'll have a better keeper rate.

If I had the finances (young toddler in daycare!) I probably would have waited for the Z6iii or maybe settled for a Z6ii since I don't shoot a lot of BIF.

Despite the initial AF fine tune issues I'm pretty happy with the D500. My last few posts in the wildlife photography presentation forum and on my flickr were shot with the D500 if you want to take a look.

For me the D500 over D7500 advantages are:

1. One button switch between AF modes (in group mode by default for BIF, press and hold button to get single point)
2. 10 fps versus 8 fps
3. The back lcd resolution is higher. I didn't think I'd care a bit about that, but the extra resolution makes it a little faster and easier for me to verify I have correct focus and such when reviewing.
4. If you like vertical grips, you can get a like-new one for the D500 for less than $100 (I bought one, but don't use it much)

The D500 also has the second card slot (and I had to buy a CF card and a card reader just for that card ...) but some like the second slot. For anything except very hardcore wildlife work I like the D7500 better -- it's smaller and lighter, image quality is identical to the D500, and I vastly prefer the U1/U2 controls over the D500 banks. And while the D500 is the pro model, the weather-sealing on the D7500 has been fine for me.

But again, I simply haven't seen much difference in BIF tracking ability between the two in the field and I do a lot of BIF with both. And that matches what Steve said in a video where he compared the D7500 and D500. As I recall, he thought that with really small fast birds (think barn swallows and the like) the D500 was a bit better but otherwise I don't think he saw much difference either.

 

[Calson]

Where I saw a marked improvement with the D500 was in Group mode autofocus which actually worked. Having a dedicated AF processor made all the difference in the world. You problem seems to be with the target for the focus and not the speed and with DSLR cameras (D500, D850, D5) I resorted to manual autofocus override to get the area I needed in sharp focus. It is important to appreciate how very little depth of field one has with long lenses.

Another problem is that AF fine tuning works for one focal length at one chosen distance when performing the AF fine tuning. With the Sigma 60-600mm lens and their USB dock I could fine tune for 4 different focal lengths and 4 different camera to subject distances for a total of 16 focus settings adjustments. With my Nikon cameras and lenses I could only chose one adjustment setting.

Only with the Z9 have I been able to let the camera's autofocus lock onto the eyes of small birds.

 

[Woodyg3]

I don't know if you've seen this video from Steve, but if not give it a look.

Single point focusing can be tricky and it's not always easy to get right on the eye, so I always take a number of shots and pick the one that is sharpest. I have never used a D7500, but have been shooting a D500 for something like 6 years. If I miss focus, it's almost always my fault.

 

[PhotoLover]

Where I saw a marked improvement with the D500 was in Group mode autofocus which actually worked. Having a dedicated AF processor made all the difference in the world. You problem seems to be with the target for the focus and not the speed and with DSLR cameras (D500, D850, D5) I resorted to manual autofocus override to get the area I needed in sharp focus. It is important to appreciate how very little depth of field one has with long lenses.

Another problem is that AF fine tuning works for one focal length at one chosen distance when performing the AF fine tuning. With the Sigma 60-600mm lens and their USB dock I could fine tune for 4 different focal lengths and 4 different camera to subject distances for a total of 16 focus settings adjustments. With my Nikon cameras and lenses I could only chose one adjustment setting.

Only with the Z9 have I been able to let the camera's autofocus lock onto the eyes of small birds.

But he's got a D7500, and from personal experience I know that camera's group AF works great, same approximate capability as the D500. I use/have used the D7500 with a 500 pf and a 500 pf + 1.4 and the AF (group mode or single point) is quite usable even with the TC on*. That camera has excellent AF, period. It's not *quite* as excellent as the D500 but differences are on the margins. I very very rarely have to manually tweak focus on either BIF or perched birds with either one.

Either he has an equipment issue (maybe 200-500 does need calibration? or the D7500 has an issue) or some slight mistakes are being made in the field.

*clearly with the TC BIF capabilities are sharply reduced (speed), though with enough light, that combo will surprise you in a positive way

 

[PhotoLover]

I don't know if you've seen this video from Steve, but if not give it a look.

Single point focusing can be tricky and it's not always easy to get right on the eye, so I always take a number of shots and pick the one that is sharpest. I have never used a D7500, but have been shooting a D500 for something like 6 years. If I miss focus, it's almost always my fault.

I do have a D7500 and it's the same for me ... if focus is blown ... it's on me. I also use single point a lot on live insects .. more focus misses there, but with DOF about 1/10 of an inch that's expected.

 

[Fenrir]

As I recall, he thought that with really small fast birds (think barn swallows and the like) the D500 was a bit better but otherwise I don't think he saw much difference either.

I recall he didn't mention how much better it was for swallows, but he seemed quite enthusiastic about the difference. Although one could argue this scenario is on the verge of extreme

I may need to re-watch this video about false positive AF.

One other idea I recalled is to use a blower to clean AF sensor inside camera body. I clean the image sensor quite often, but keep forgetting about the AF one.

Thank you for all the insights.

 

[PhotoLover]

I recall he didn't mention how much better it was for swallows, but he seemed quite enthusiastic about the difference. Although one could argue this scenario is on the verge of extreme

I may need to re-watch this video about false positive AF.

One other idea I recalled is to use a blower to clean AF sensor inside camera body. I clean the image sensor quite often, but keep forgetting about the AF one.

Thank you for all the insights.

I went back and looked at the D7500 video, where he compared it to the D500 and the D7200. The section on AF starts at about 11:30 in the video. Watching again, I still think he is saying the D500 AF is better in very demanding situations .... like trying to get swallows in flight as he was doing in that section of the video ... but he states the D7500 will do quite well for "normal*" BIF, mammals, etc.

I don't think the problems you are experiencing are due to weaknesses in the D7500 AF as opposed to the D500 AF, especially if you are seeing the problem with single point AF. Steve certainly wasn't using single point AF to try and get the swallows in flight!

If I'm having trouble keeping the AF point on the eye, I'll cheerfully try and get some of the head near the eye... whatever is easiest to grab. Unless you are really really close, you will have enough DOF for that to get the eyes sharp. And if you are really close, you might need to stop it down a bit also. I've missed focus sometimes staying at 5.6 when I needed more DOF. I also sometimes go to 9 points over single point (with the D7500) if I have a small bird hopping around -- those can be really hard to track with single point, at least for me.

* normal birds were not defined ..

 

[Fishboy1952]

I started back into photography with the D7500 and graduated to a D500. I used both the 200-500 and the 500PF on both. In my opinion the AF is more responsive and accurate on the D500 when compared to the D7500, in part due to the second processor. The other great advantage was the ability to customize the controls to immediately switch from single point to group mode, as when a perched bird decides to fly. I was able to get great images on the D7500, but my keeper rate and enjoyment went up significantly with the D500. Combining the D500 with the 500PF resulted in a great wildlife combination. If you are going to stay with DSLRs, you can’t beat it.

 

[Craig Yuill]

I was about to get a D7500 when a good used D500 became available (at a time when the D500 was almost impossible to find). I wanted a “no-compromises” BIF camera, and the D500 was the one considered to be the best that was within my budget. I have been very satisfied with the D500, and have not needed to AF fine tune any of the lenses I have used with it. It doesn’t always focus on the subject properly, which is often because of poor technique or operation on my part.

I did get a chance to use a D7500 once, for a two-hour session. I was quite impressed by it. It nailed focus on static subjects, and did a decent job for some BIF shots taken of an eagle. I consider it to be a good alternative to the D500. And, unlike the D500, the D7500 can still be found new, with warranty.

 

[PhotoLover]

I currently use D7500 with 200-500mm for bird photography. After upgrading from D5600 (less than a year ago) I'm very satisfied with the speed, buffer, ergonomics and low light performance.

However there's one aspect I ocassionally complain about - I get considerable number of images with focus plane landing slightly behind or in front of bird's eye (mostly behind), even when I keep the focus point on the eye in the viewfinder (single point mode). It was more or less the same with D5600 which has 39 AF points instead of 51.

I don't think it's the problem with AF fine tuning though, the results are too inconsistent for that. Sometimes focus lands perfectly fine and ocassionally I get some front focus too.

So now I'm wondering, is AF in D500 a significant step up in this regard? Obviously Z8 would be the best answer to this problem, but it's nowhere near my budget.

Or maybe I'm looking at this completely wrong and the problem lies a few inches behind the viewfinder?

Any insights appreciated!

EDIT: One more thing to mention, probably quite important: I'm using AF-C with back button focus. I usually keep the back button pressed when keeping the AF point on the eye.

One more question I forgot to ask, when you get misses on the AF with single point, are you using the center focus points, or have you selected some of the outer ones to get a different composition? When you move away from the center, you lose some/all of the cross sensors and AF speed and accuracy is decreased. This is one place where the D500 should definitely be better than the D7500, though unless you have an F/4 or faster lens, some of those points are not used.

Here's another thread hashing out the D500/D7500 differences that I opened last summer: https://bcgforums.com/threads/nikon-d500-versus-d7500-with-5-6-lens.26755/

 

[Calson]

With my DSLR cameras I always relied on manual override to get the part of the animal in sharp focus. Autofocus is not going to work nearly as well as a human operator. It was only with the Z9 that I could rely on the camera's autofocus system. At least most Nikon lenses allow for manual override while in an autofocus mode.

 

[PhotoLover]

With my DSLR cameras I always relied on manual override to get the part of the animal in sharp focus. Autofocus is not going to work nearly as well as a human operator. It was only with the Z9 that I could rely on the camera's autofocus system. At least most Nikon lenses allow for manual override while in an autofocus mode.

That really surprises me. I basically never have to use manual focus whether it be BIF, perched birds (including perched birds surrounded by branches), insects like hummingbird moths, dragonflies and bees, misc mammals, etc. AF is vastly faster and usually more accurate than I am. In my gallery, not a one of those shots used MF; in fact I struggle to think of any shots I've taken in the last six months where I used MF. Single point for stationary/slower critters, group for faster moving stuff, every once in a while 9/25 point for things like birds hopping on the ground. Maybe you are shooting in more difficult conditions than I!

I find AF on my D7500 and D500* astonishingly good. The D7500 has 125k+ shutter activations, and most of those shots were in focus .. and the ones that were not were typically user error. That doesn't mean I'm not looking forward to eye detect on something like a Z8/9! I can definitely see me getting some shots I don't now, and/or better compositions.

* I mean, the D500 is generally considered one of the best wildlife cameras ever built, really only eclipsed by the latest mirrorless high-end gear.

 

[seh]

I had excellent AF with my d7500, including many BIF and DIF (dogs in flight) shots. Enjoyed the size and weight. Traded it with some sadness as part of a B&H Z8 trade-in deal. Can't speak to the d500.

 

[Anjin San]

I'll give it a go. CAn you provide me with a link?

I’m with you…I wish they would give us the option of making banks original settings sticky so that power cycle or deselecting the bank via menu or iMenu restored to the previous known state. I also want drive mode to be stored, they can do that for RSF Hold so it seems easy…although personally I don’t see any real reason that banks and user modes cant store everything.

 

[Patrick M]

It’s been a few years since I traded in my D7500, but I did use it for an expedition in Antarctica where it performed really well with the 200-500. I did spend considerable time fine tuning the lens though.
Steve has several videos that may help.

 

[Calson]

I tested the autofocus of the D500, D5, and D850 with battery grip and EN-EL18 battery, with the same lens and photographing osprey leaving and returning to their nest. The D5 was considerably better at tracking and focusing on the birds as they rapidly approached the camera. My hit rate was 100% with the D5 and less than 10% with the D850 and D500.

 

[PhotoLover]

I tested the autofocus of the D500, D5, and D850 with battery grip and EN-EL18 battery, with the same lens and photographing osprey leaving and returning to their nest. The D5 was considerably better at tracking and focusing on the birds as they rapidly approached the camera. My hit rate was 100% with the D5 and less than 10% with the D850 and D500.

I believe the D5 and D500 have the same 153 point AF. If they use the same AF, why would the D5 give you a (much) higher hit rate?

I've used the D7500 and D500 a lot with BIF and never been in a situation with a 10% hit rate. Except maybe trying to get those barn swallows in flight catching bugs ...With a known to/from location (like an Osprey nest) I'd expect a very high hit rate with any of these cameras. Especially with larger birds like the Osprey.

Though the D7500 versus D500 comparison might be interesting to debate, I've never heard of anybody that didn't think the D500 had an absolutely top of the line AF.

 

[Jim J]

I have both the D 7500 and D 500 and can sympathize with you on the focus issues. I recently went to a sporting event and had a lot of focus issues with both cameras and long lenses. I went back and looked at Steve's books and videos and studied the camera manuals again. Then I looked at the focus points on my photos and looked at the metadata to see if the camera thought is was getting a focus lock.

I learned I had to improve my techniques.

1. If shooting at faster than 1/500, or on a tripod Nikon recommends to turn off lens vr. This helped me the most.

2. Set the focus point to the center and lock it there. Using BBF you can focus, release the button and recompose.. Birds are twitchy and can move an inch or two in the time it takes to do this, though. This also helped me.

3. Make sure the thing you are focusing on fills a large part of the frame. For many of my shots the camera locked on to something else in the part of the frame in front or behind where I was trying to focus. Easy to say, hard to do especially with small birds.

Group autofocus with D9 (d 7500) or D25 (D 500) worked best for me.

With a long lens, far away from the subject, and hand held, there was enough camera shake that I could not hold the focus point over a subject's eye, so I had to shoot in high speed mode to get one or more photos in focus on what I wanted.

Shooting at high shutter speeds reduces motion blur due to camera shake or subject movement but cannot correct for wrong focus points.

 

[simonsi]

I believe the D5 and D500 have the same 153 point AF. If they use the same AF, why would the D5 give you a (much) higher hit rate?

Although the same 153pt AF sensor, likely the D5 has more powerful AF processing, meaning it gets to a better AF solution, faster. This was tested to be the case by DPR comparing the D3 and D700 but I would expect that differential to be maintained on the Dx series due to their intended use cases.

Certainly I have shot swallows in flight with a D7500, its no slouch in AF but you need to consider the lens too, for example a D500 cant make a 200-500 AF any faster, the lens will only drive so fast.

 

[Woodyg3]

I tested the autofocus of the D500, D5, and D850 with battery grip and EN-EL18 battery, with the same lens and photographing osprey leaving and returning to their nest. The D5 was considerably better at tracking and focusing on the birds as they rapidly approached the camera. My hit rate was 100% with the D5 and less than 10% with the D850 and D500.

Interesting. We've had very different experiences. I've been using a D500 for 6 years or so, and have never had a hit rate anywhere near as low as 10%. In fact, with Osprey flying toward the camera, I'd say my hit rate is at least in the high 80s, and the ones missed are usually because of MY inability to keep the bird in the frame. Lenses used include the Nikon 200-500, Nikon 500pf, and a Tamron 100-400 zoom. That said, I'd love to give the D5 a go one of these days.

 

[simonsi]

I’m with you…I wish they would give us the option of making banks original settings sticky so that power cycle or deselecting the bank via menu or iMenu restored to the previous known state. I also want drive mode to be stored, they can do that for RSF Hold so it seems easy…although personally I don’t see any real reason that banks and user modes cant store everything.

You cant store drive mode with a discrete drive selector dial such as most bodies with the bank system have, you would end up with a conflict between the selected drive on tne dial and that stored. Generally you can only store items selected only by menu or button and dials.